Ethiopean 787 fire at Heathrow
I would assume that the mounting of the ELT battery/transmitter would be on a small rack and that only the antenna itself would be direct skin mounting, all be it with a gasket!
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Airbus' John Leahy: Boeing 787 Unreliable, Immature Aircraft
Haven't seen this gem posted here:
TOULOUSE: A senior Airbus executive hit out at rival Boeing's troubled Dreamliner on Friday, saying the aircraft was clearly not reliable and suggested it was rushed to market.
"It's pretty obvious that this airplane is not reliable and does not have mature systems," Airbus sales chief John Leahy told reporters at a ceremony to mark the 1,000th delivery of the company's A330 plane, to Hong Kong airline Cathay Pacific.
"You can keep it flying but it's going to cost you a lot of maintenance," Leahy said, in the first comments by Airbus management about the Dreamliner's difficulties.
"What they've got is an architecture that is not mature and that will eventually become mature. It's going to take a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of cancelled flights. And maybe redesign quite a few systems onboard."
Airbus executive says Dreamliner 'not reliable' - The Economic Times
TOULOUSE: A senior Airbus executive hit out at rival Boeing's troubled Dreamliner on Friday, saying the aircraft was clearly not reliable and suggested it was rushed to market.
"It's pretty obvious that this airplane is not reliable and does not have mature systems," Airbus sales chief John Leahy told reporters at a ceremony to mark the 1,000th delivery of the company's A330 plane, to Hong Kong airline Cathay Pacific.
"You can keep it flying but it's going to cost you a lot of maintenance," Leahy said, in the first comments by Airbus management about the Dreamliner's difficulties.
"What they've got is an architecture that is not mature and that will eventually become mature. It's going to take a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of cancelled flights. And maybe redesign quite a few systems onboard."
Airbus executive says Dreamliner 'not reliable' - The Economic Times
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TOULOUSE: A senior Airbus executive hit out at rival Boeing's troubled Dreamliner on Friday
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Aeromech3
Good comment, but what are all the SLF doing in all this other than breathing toxic carbon monoxide, cyanide and a host of 90 other toxic nasties in dense smoke via FST or just watching IFE in spite of dense FST smoke with no protection whatsoever?
The whole onboard fire fighting a critical internal FST fire just doesn't wash, sorry. And RIP to all onboard in that event.
Good comment, but what are all the SLF doing in all this other than breathing toxic carbon monoxide, cyanide and a host of 90 other toxic nasties in dense smoke via FST or just watching IFE in spite of dense FST smoke with no protection whatsoever?
The whole onboard fire fighting a critical internal FST fire just doesn't wash, sorry. And RIP to all onboard in that event.
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No Photos?
Can anyone explain why there have been no photos of the inside damage? There are many who could have legitimate comments that might help understand what happened with photos.
Last edited by HairOfTheDog; 19th Jul 2013 at 21:32.
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If it was "burning" batteries in the beacon that started the fire, and they were still involved when the fire crew arrived, then it's unlikely that anything short of cooling the batteries below their reaction temperature would stop the energy release. I understand that the failed batteries do not require external oxygen to start, or continue, to release heat. Presumably halon will quickly stop the burning of the aircraft structure in air, although unless it's also cooled, than the fuselage would presumably reignite if it stays hot and the halon drifts away.
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I agree something here doesn't pass the smell test and is being kept quiet. Any fire investigator worth their salt can look over the aft galley and tell you if the fire started in the trash can, coffee pot or other suspected working area the crew may have utilized. This 406ELT has been used on several other aircraft for years with no history of overheating. Also the ELT battery is not of sufficient size to burn hot for more than a couple minutes if it shorted or puffed like lipo's will do when overheated. Can this ELT be activated from the cockpit like other aircraft? if so then it has a wire harness attached. I think the public and crews working this aircraft have reason to want an answer.
Last edited by cappt; 19th Jul 2013 at 22:43.
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@syseng68k
Something doesn't add up. Okay, the AAIB have concerns surrounding the evidence they seen about the actual ignition source. I suspect the Li batteries in the ELT may or may not be to blame. Forensic examination of the battery housing should establish relatively quickly whether an external heat source was involved. Likewise if the heat generated by a battery short radiated beyond the casing etc..
Methinks the AAIB is taking a very cautious approach.
Sorry, but I just don't believe in such coincidences
Methinks the AAIB is taking a very cautious approach.
One thing to remember is that the elt batteries have only a fraction
of the capacity of the main a/c batteries, have a very different
chemistry and wouldn't suffer from the same problems in service.
Such batteries are also often current limited by design. ie: They
would be very unlikely to have enough available energy to burn
through the metal enclosure.
I had to source some long life lithium batteries for a project some
years ago. They were Lithium Thionyl Chloride chemistry, C cell sized
cell, with a high 19.5A/hours rating, but only at very low drain
current. They were rated for 125 C service, with welded stainless steel
outer case. Also found some other Lithium cells during the search that
were rated at over 200C, for applications such as deep oil well data
logging.
I find it hard to belive that these batteries could have caused the
fire, but we just have to wait and see...
of the capacity of the main a/c batteries, have a very different
chemistry and wouldn't suffer from the same problems in service.
Such batteries are also often current limited by design. ie: They
would be very unlikely to have enough available energy to burn
through the metal enclosure.
I had to source some long life lithium batteries for a project some
years ago. They were Lithium Thionyl Chloride chemistry, C cell sized
cell, with a high 19.5A/hours rating, but only at very low drain
current. They were rated for 125 C service, with welded stainless steel
outer case. Also found some other Lithium cells during the search that
were rated at over 200C, for applications such as deep oil well data
logging.
I find it hard to belive that these batteries could have caused the
fire, but we just have to wait and see...
PPRuNe Person
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Methinks the AAIB is taking a very cautious approach.
If you issue an edict to ground an aircraft without knowing precisely why, how do you then release it to fly again?
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a good primer on battery failure
that explains where the oxygen originates that can cause such a strong fire that halon cannot extinguish.
Lithium Battery Failures
Lithium Battery Failures
Which ELT RESCU 406® AFN2?
honeywell
There are two ELt 406, the new one RESCU 406® AFN2 more than 50% lighter than the older RESCU 406® AFN.
The AFN2 has two cells, the old AFN had 5 cells. Now i'm wondering, if really already 6000 devices of the new one with only two cells are in operation or if that number is related to all 406 ELt's with two and 5 cells.
And i'm further wondering, if this 2 cell design, which saves a 4.3 lbs in weight might have some influence onthe happening.
There are two ELt 406, the new one RESCU 406® AFN2 more than 50% lighter than the older RESCU 406® AFN.
The AFN2 has two cells, the old AFN had 5 cells. Now i'm wondering, if really already 6000 devices of the new one with only two cells are in operation or if that number is related to all 406 ELt's with two and 5 cells.
And i'm further wondering, if this 2 cell design, which saves a 4.3 lbs in weight might have some influence onthe happening.
Last edited by RetiredF4; 20th Jul 2013 at 13:57.
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They can do little else.
If you issue an edict to ground an aircraft without knowing precisely why, how do you then release it to fly again?
If you issue an edict to ground an aircraft without knowing precisely why, how do you then release it to fly again?
(did I say that)
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Aviation week article
has a few great articles on this issue
1) fire did NOT burn thru airframe- but claims aluminum section would have been weakened more and possibly failed
2) Boeing is planning on fixing - several possiblities in work patch to ferry, replace aft section, etc
Issue will be out monday- but those who have subscription can access via zinio
partial quote via ocr
....Insiders also quietly note that the
composite structure heldup well to the
fire. Compared to conventional aircraftthickness
aluminum, for which FAA
tests have shown burn-through timesof
30-60 sec. in intense fires, Boeing flame
tests exhibited longer burn-through
times for sections representative of
the 787's composite laminate skin. The
aircraft maker also points out that although
the fire was severe enough to
visibly char the exterior of the skin, the
fire did not penetrate the surface."
"This is the largest incident that I
have seen as far as damage from heat
and fire," says Paul Jonas, director of
environmental test labs and special programs
at the National Institute for Aviation
Research at Wichita State University,
"This is a significant event. It does
look like a lot of heating." He estimates
that fire temperatures may have been in
the 1,000-1,200F range to cause the type
of paint damage seen in photographs of
the scene. "Composites are pretty much
self-extinguishing. If you put flame on
and take it off, it doesn't propagate."
I will not copy more
1) fire did NOT burn thru airframe- but claims aluminum section would have been weakened more and possibly failed
2) Boeing is planning on fixing - several possiblities in work patch to ferry, replace aft section, etc
Issue will be out monday- but those who have subscription can access via zinio
partial quote via ocr
....Insiders also quietly note that the
composite structure heldup well to the
fire. Compared to conventional aircraftthickness
aluminum, for which FAA
tests have shown burn-through timesof
30-60 sec. in intense fires, Boeing flame
tests exhibited longer burn-through
times for sections representative of
the 787's composite laminate skin. The
aircraft maker also points out that although
the fire was severe enough to
visibly char the exterior of the skin, the
fire did not penetrate the surface."
"This is the largest incident that I
have seen as far as damage from heat
and fire," says Paul Jonas, director of
environmental test labs and special programs
at the National Institute for Aviation
Research at Wichita State University,
"This is a significant event. It does
look like a lot of heating." He estimates
that fire temperatures may have been in
the 1,000-1,200F range to cause the type
of paint damage seen in photographs of
the scene. "Composites are pretty much
self-extinguishing. If you put flame on
and take it off, it doesn't propagate."
I will not copy more
Last edited by DWS; 20th Jul 2013 at 02:24. Reason: adding aluminum