Can we attract kids into Aviation Engineering?
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Interesting thread, some great contributions from the usual suspects (no surprise there then!). Genghis I suspect you have a similar background to mine as I am a Chartered Engineer but was never Licensed hence the spanners on the floor begrudge acceptance.
I think this thread covers a wide variety of subjects, from the status of Engineers through to this country's attitude towards engineering/manufacturing industries and on to demand for LAME jobs now and in the future.
My 2 cents worth.
Chartered and Licensed engineers are quite different beasts, one needs a degree qualification and may be heavily involved in theoretical analysis and heavy duty math, the other needs a great breadth of experience, mainly practical with more limited theoretical understanding. The Chartered route (please remember this is just IMO) is well suited to degree courses and the more academically able, while the Licensed route is better suited to Apprenticeships. Frankly it is something of a misnomer to call the Licensed guys "engineers" at all and without disrespect a better title would be "technicians". But that's the blurring of titles I referred to, and I think it has also led to a blurring of the routes into the profession. Whilst a cross over is possible for an older guy, for a young person coming in I firmly believe it should be one or the other: an apprenticeship for a licensed guy or a degree for an engineer/designer. I get applications every week from lads who have done an aero engineering degree and can't understand why they can't get work placements for their license hours.
And to the industry. While it's true Boeing and Airbus are falling over themselves to get aircraft out to service their projections of demand are based on a flawed economic model, one that depends on continued growth in the face of oil price rises. The bulk of growth in this industry has been the LCCs, for whom fuel prices are a large chunk of their DOC. Increase those fuel prices and ticket prices will rise, reducing demand for butts on seats. Already we are seeing new aircraft service lives falling (in the developed world anyway) as carriers demand more fuel efficient and maintenance-free aircraft. With falling demand and falling need t maintain new aircraft what does that tell you about the future demand for engineers?
Of course, it may be that airlines get burned with too small a pool of experienced labor in future but right now my feeling is they have a fair handle on their future needs and are supporting in-house apprenticeships to the extent they need to to maintain their workforce. External candidates are largely surplus. Which makes me question how many of those (increasingly expensive) degrees are worth it?
On the plus side aircraft maintenence will continue a rewarding job for those of us lucky enough to have made it in, though as ever it will have its share of frustrations and the likely oversupply of engineers against falling demand for air travel and newer aircraft is unlikely to leave any of us rich.
I think this thread covers a wide variety of subjects, from the status of Engineers through to this country's attitude towards engineering/manufacturing industries and on to demand for LAME jobs now and in the future.
My 2 cents worth.
Chartered and Licensed engineers are quite different beasts, one needs a degree qualification and may be heavily involved in theoretical analysis and heavy duty math, the other needs a great breadth of experience, mainly practical with more limited theoretical understanding. The Chartered route (please remember this is just IMO) is well suited to degree courses and the more academically able, while the Licensed route is better suited to Apprenticeships. Frankly it is something of a misnomer to call the Licensed guys "engineers" at all and without disrespect a better title would be "technicians". But that's the blurring of titles I referred to, and I think it has also led to a blurring of the routes into the profession. Whilst a cross over is possible for an older guy, for a young person coming in I firmly believe it should be one or the other: an apprenticeship for a licensed guy or a degree for an engineer/designer. I get applications every week from lads who have done an aero engineering degree and can't understand why they can't get work placements for their license hours.
And to the industry. While it's true Boeing and Airbus are falling over themselves to get aircraft out to service their projections of demand are based on a flawed economic model, one that depends on continued growth in the face of oil price rises. The bulk of growth in this industry has been the LCCs, for whom fuel prices are a large chunk of their DOC. Increase those fuel prices and ticket prices will rise, reducing demand for butts on seats. Already we are seeing new aircraft service lives falling (in the developed world anyway) as carriers demand more fuel efficient and maintenance-free aircraft. With falling demand and falling need t maintain new aircraft what does that tell you about the future demand for engineers?
Of course, it may be that airlines get burned with too small a pool of experienced labor in future but right now my feeling is they have a fair handle on their future needs and are supporting in-house apprenticeships to the extent they need to to maintain their workforce. External candidates are largely surplus. Which makes me question how many of those (increasingly expensive) degrees are worth it?
On the plus side aircraft maintenence will continue a rewarding job for those of us lucky enough to have made it in, though as ever it will have its share of frustrations and the likely oversupply of engineers against falling demand for air travel and newer aircraft is unlikely to leave any of us rich.
I pretty much agree with you Dodo, except over the term "Engineer" - realistically not only is the word too widely used in Britain at-least to describe people maintaining aeroplanes, but the Licenced Engineer has a salary and education well beyond that of technicians in most other industries.
However, I'd certainly be happy to always put a prefix (and in an ideal world, protection) on the word Engineer:
- Chartered Engineer
- Incorporated Engineer
- Graduate Engineer
- Licenced Engineer
All of those are easily recognisable by the combination of job, training and education. Anybody else, is either a semi-skilled mechanic, apprentice, or student.
And it should always be possible to move between these, or be more than one - but realistically they are all quite different jobs, albeit within the same industry and similar environments.
G
However, I'd certainly be happy to always put a prefix (and in an ideal world, protection) on the word Engineer:
- Chartered Engineer
- Incorporated Engineer
- Graduate Engineer
- Licenced Engineer
All of those are easily recognisable by the combination of job, training and education. Anybody else, is either a semi-skilled mechanic, apprentice, or student.
And it should always be possible to move between these, or be more than one - but realistically they are all quite different jobs, albeit within the same industry and similar environments.
G
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Social Structures
Of course the way we perceive the value of a person is subjective and often prejudiced. The subjectivity arises from our cutural roots and varies across the planet.
If we hop over to central Europe from the UK we find a completely different culture. The pay rates are incomparable, the conditions, holidays and pensions are often better.
In my book anybody that applies technology to fix or create is an engineer. The difference in Europe is that when you pass your first academic after 2/3 years full time study or 4/5 part time study you become a Dipl.Ing.
On your pay slip its says Dipl.Ing ...... .......
If we hop over to central Europe from the UK we find a completely different culture. The pay rates are incomparable, the conditions, holidays and pensions are often better.
In my book anybody that applies technology to fix or create is an engineer. The difference in Europe is that when you pass your first academic after 2/3 years full time study or 4/5 part time study you become a Dipl.Ing.
On your pay slip its says Dipl.Ing ...... .......
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Back to the thread title!
Newastle Aviation Academy are hosting junior and infant school visits to help the local schools add interest to their Key Stage 1 (5 year olds) curriculum on 'Transport'. We can allow the kids to have proper hands on with our dead aircraft. One or two may even want to become pilots (or engineers) as a direct result of being sat in the P1 seat of a BAC 1-11 or 737.
Perhaps it is time that the wider aircraft industry took an interest in what is being taught at schools and helped their local school by getting kids obsessed with aeroplanes. The opportunity is there chaps, take it.
Newastle Aviation Academy are hosting junior and infant school visits to help the local schools add interest to their Key Stage 1 (5 year olds) curriculum on 'Transport'. We can allow the kids to have proper hands on with our dead aircraft. One or two may even want to become pilots (or engineers) as a direct result of being sat in the P1 seat of a BAC 1-11 or 737.
Perhaps it is time that the wider aircraft industry took an interest in what is being taught at schools and helped their local school by getting kids obsessed with aeroplanes. The opportunity is there chaps, take it.
Last edited by Tranwell; 10th Feb 2011 at 17:23. Reason: i r literate
