Are we all white, and male?
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From: UK
Are we all white, and male?
I was reading Professional Engineering this morning (the IMechE's rag) and passed what I thought was quite a good page to my wife - it was full of short paragraphs from Engineers about the good bits of their jobs.
She (an engineering lecturer at a fairly well known university) read it, but was quite dismissive, pointing out that it was no use to her because out of 15 names, 14 were male, and all were clearly anglo-saxon, whilst a large proportion of her students are not anglo-saxon, whilst a noticeable proportion are young women.
Which got me thinking - if I go for a meeting at, say, BAe, I don't think I ever sit down with an engineer who is other than white and male. If I go out of my office into the hangar, anybody working on the aircraft - yep, all white men.
I know that I have met a few pretty good engineers who weren't white and male (and married one of them), but they really are - at least in the UK and I think in the USA, a tiny minority.
(On the other hand, I spent a while in Malaysia early this year, and met some very able engineers, roughly equally split between men and women - but all Malays: not one there from the other ethnic groups - Chinese and Indians. Interesting in itself.)
Do I just orbit in some little white-male enclaves, or have we (British Engineering at-least) got a real problem with somehow exclusing something like 70% of the population. Thing is, I don't think I nowadays detect much racism or sexism in the lab, the hangar, or the office (I certainly did 20 years ago!), but why this huge mismatch between the people working, and the mix of people that my wife is teaching down the road?
G
She (an engineering lecturer at a fairly well known university) read it, but was quite dismissive, pointing out that it was no use to her because out of 15 names, 14 were male, and all were clearly anglo-saxon, whilst a large proportion of her students are not anglo-saxon, whilst a noticeable proportion are young women.
Which got me thinking - if I go for a meeting at, say, BAe, I don't think I ever sit down with an engineer who is other than white and male. If I go out of my office into the hangar, anybody working on the aircraft - yep, all white men.
I know that I have met a few pretty good engineers who weren't white and male (and married one of them), but they really are - at least in the UK and I think in the USA, a tiny minority.
(On the other hand, I spent a while in Malaysia early this year, and met some very able engineers, roughly equally split between men and women - but all Malays: not one there from the other ethnic groups - Chinese and Indians. Interesting in itself.)
Do I just orbit in some little white-male enclaves, or have we (British Engineering at-least) got a real problem with somehow exclusing something like 70% of the population. Thing is, I don't think I nowadays detect much racism or sexism in the lab, the hangar, or the office (I certainly did 20 years ago!), but why this huge mismatch between the people working, and the mix of people that my wife is teaching down the road?
G
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From: UK
No doubt in 5, 10 or 20 years time, some of your wife's non-Anglo Saxon students will be the subject of articles in Professional Engineering or their relevent trade rag. However, at this point in time is it really any surprise that whether in Malaysia or the UK, the national ethnic majority is also the ethnic majority in traditional professional disciplines. And does it matter? Likewise, certain careers have always, and will always, appeal more to one sex (sorry... gender identity) than the other. Nursing: feminine, grit-blasting truck chassis: masculine. No amount of social engineering will ever eliminate the underlying natural differences between masculine and feminine brains, and neither should it. Suggesting under-representation in these areas (where in fact the diversity, or lack of, is a natural consequence of selection on merit from suitable applicants) has sinister undertones of lefty quotas and reverse discrimination, which in my mind is just as unhealthy as old-fashioned racism.
Funnily enough in my old job, British military, practising Muslims and non-whites were perhaps under-represented amongst the workforce. Institutional racism or just that these groups are less inclined to work for BritMil? I think your answer will depend on whether you read Socialist Worker or the Telegraph.
Funnily enough in my old job, British military, practising Muslims and non-whites were perhaps under-represented amongst the workforce. Institutional racism or just that these groups are less inclined to work for BritMil? I think your answer will depend on whether you read Socialist Worker or the Telegraph.
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From: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
GTH,
That's a very interesting post.
I would venture to suggest that engineering ( albeit a very broad based definition ) given the range of disciplines within the term as a whole and not simply aircraft engineering, both manufacturing / design and maintenance suffers from a major problem....image.
Image is a holy grail in our current social perceptions and promoted at every opportunity by the media to the extent of saturation coverage. Engineering is far from glamourous therefore as is the perception ( not helped at times by many in the maintenance world who are their own worst enemies in this respect ) of the "stereotype" engineer...oil and grease covered etc. Indeed, I once read a rather telling piece in an in house magazine ( large airline based at LHR...cough ! ) from two ladies (admin) who were joining a particular fleet..they said "don't worry, we are not a couple of oily rags"...so no suprise this was duly published.
As for Black, Indian, Chinese engineers, it's a moot point really. For those UK born from these populations, I would agree that relatively few seem to enter the engineering world....again, maybe it's down to the question of image?...or rather perception of aircraft engineering as an occupation.
Sexism and racism?.....still sadly around, albeit more subdued shall we say...more "kindred spirits" talking ( well grunting actually) to each other rather than to those of us who do not subscribe to either.
I have long felt that aircraft engineering ( in all areas ) has never really marketed the occupation as other sectors do....and in all probability never will.
That's a very interesting post.
I would venture to suggest that engineering ( albeit a very broad based definition ) given the range of disciplines within the term as a whole and not simply aircraft engineering, both manufacturing / design and maintenance suffers from a major problem....image.
Image is a holy grail in our current social perceptions and promoted at every opportunity by the media to the extent of saturation coverage. Engineering is far from glamourous therefore as is the perception ( not helped at times by many in the maintenance world who are their own worst enemies in this respect ) of the "stereotype" engineer...oil and grease covered etc. Indeed, I once read a rather telling piece in an in house magazine ( large airline based at LHR...cough ! ) from two ladies (admin) who were joining a particular fleet..they said "don't worry, we are not a couple of oily rags"...so no suprise this was duly published.
As for Black, Indian, Chinese engineers, it's a moot point really. For those UK born from these populations, I would agree that relatively few seem to enter the engineering world....again, maybe it's down to the question of image?...or rather perception of aircraft engineering as an occupation.
Sexism and racism?.....still sadly around, albeit more subdued shall we say...more "kindred spirits" talking ( well grunting actually) to each other rather than to those of us who do not subscribe to either.
I have long felt that aircraft engineering ( in all areas ) has never really marketed the occupation as other sectors do....and in all probability never will.
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: UK
My mate I work with is black and his name is Edward. Your point is?
The demographic as in all places is location. Heathrow is very multicultural/multiracial.
I'm sure if the magazine was released in the middle-east or Africa, a lack of White engineers would be the case.
The demographic as in all places is location. Heathrow is very multicultural/multiracial.
I'm sure if the magazine was released in the middle-east or Africa, a lack of White engineers would be the case.
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From: UK
I'm not claiming that there are no coloured or female engineers in this country, but I'd still maintain very few.
Malaysia is interesting on two levels I think; firstly their local issue of certain professions apparently "belonging" to particular races - a peculiarity of that country I think. The other however is that (I was told, and the mix of people I met seemed to confirm that) engineers in Malaysia are about 55:45 female:male. This certainly seems to suggest that the British norm that engineering is something that inherently is much more appealling to men than women, is more a function of being British, than being human?
Maybe I should go and discuss this with my friend Pete, he's a ward sister!
G
Malaysia is interesting on two levels I think; firstly their local issue of certain professions apparently "belonging" to particular races - a peculiarity of that country I think. The other however is that (I was told, and the mix of people I met seemed to confirm that) engineers in Malaysia are about 55:45 female:male. This certainly seems to suggest that the British norm that engineering is something that inherently is much more appealling to men than women, is more a function of being British, than being human?
Maybe I should go and discuss this with my friend Pete, he's a ward sister!
G
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Anglia
Agreed, there are very few minority ethnics in many UK trades, Binmen (at least in my neighbourhood) being one of them.
I believe this is due to localised perceptions of 'traditional' job boundaries.
We don't see many Europeans doing Chinese meals in UK, do we? Nor do we see many Crop-Pickers as British anymore?
Don't forget that many people, even in these times, still quote "They bombed our chip shop" as a serious attack on germans, or that tribal/religeous instincts still appear in "european" countries such as Northern Ireland or Bosnia or the break-up between "Russia" and Georgia, etc.
"People" limit themselves due to their upbringing and familial influences. Seldom are our tribal traditions broken.
In the future we may more evenly integrate, but it can only ever be either 'in proportion' or in 'majority' suitable to the local ethnicity and available talent.
I believe this is due to localised perceptions of 'traditional' job boundaries.
We don't see many Europeans doing Chinese meals in UK, do we? Nor do we see many Crop-Pickers as British anymore?
Don't forget that many people, even in these times, still quote "They bombed our chip shop" as a serious attack on germans, or that tribal/religeous instincts still appear in "european" countries such as Northern Ireland or Bosnia or the break-up between "Russia" and Georgia, etc.
"People" limit themselves due to their upbringing and familial influences. Seldom are our tribal traditions broken.
In the future we may more evenly integrate, but it can only ever be either 'in proportion' or in 'majority' suitable to the local ethnicity and available talent.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: At home
The major difference is not that its engineering, but the requirement in a large part of the aircraft manufacturing industry to hold security clearance. As most lower tier suppliers have both civil and military customers, BC or SC clearance is virtually obligatory. Anyone whose parents were born abroad is going to be viewed by an employer as more difficult or time consuming to get cleared.
Having worked for Airbus between 2002 - 2004, I have never seen such a multi-cultural, and multinational work force, and that's even if you ignore the people from the Airbus partner countries. The only group without signficant representation were the North Americans, and they probably went to Seattle instead... I understand, however, that once the A400M work started ramping up, a significant proportion of the workforce, both contract and permanent, were unable to get the necessary clearance to work on it.
I am back at college now doing an Aero Eng. degree, and at least half my class were either born outside the UK, or from ethnic minorities within it. The worrying thing is that the courses for hairdressers and beauticians seem to be largely 'whites only', so it could be the 'white' portion of the UK population are evolving into Golgafrinchans ('Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' fans will know what I mean).
There are no females students on our course
, although there are a couple of female lecturers. The continual use of the word 'engineer' by the media to mean 'someone who gets their hands dirty' is probably to blame for this.
Having worked for Airbus between 2002 - 2004, I have never seen such a multi-cultural, and multinational work force, and that's even if you ignore the people from the Airbus partner countries. The only group without signficant representation were the North Americans, and they probably went to Seattle instead... I understand, however, that once the A400M work started ramping up, a significant proportion of the workforce, both contract and permanent, were unable to get the necessary clearance to work on it.
I am back at college now doing an Aero Eng. degree, and at least half my class were either born outside the UK, or from ethnic minorities within it. The worrying thing is that the courses for hairdressers and beauticians seem to be largely 'whites only', so it could be the 'white' portion of the UK population are evolving into Golgafrinchans ('Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' fans will know what I mean).
There are no females students on our course
, although there are a couple of female lecturers. The continual use of the word 'engineer' by the media to mean 'someone who gets their hands dirty' is probably to blame for this.
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Oxfordshire
Hmmm.
Here's an interesting insight then:
On my course of 80 aircraft design students at Cranfield only 5 are British. And 3 of those are here courtesy of the RAF.
The other 75 are all foreign, and come from just about everywhere: Africa, China, France, Spain, Germany, Hungary, America, Malta, Pakistan, Australia...
In a very short period of time I fear most of the jobs in aircraft design will be filled with these top guys and girls, and yet another UK industry will have lost it's domestic talent.
I'd love to know why there's only two of us self funded here...
Here's an interesting insight then:
On my course of 80 aircraft design students at Cranfield only 5 are British. And 3 of those are here courtesy of the RAF.
The other 75 are all foreign, and come from just about everywhere: Africa, China, France, Spain, Germany, Hungary, America, Malta, Pakistan, Australia...
In a very short period of time I fear most of the jobs in aircraft design will be filled with these top guys and girls, and yet another UK industry will have lost it's domestic talent.
I'd love to know why there's only two of us self funded here...
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From: Baile Atha Cliath
Two things spring to mind: some very competent women engineers who were trained in Shannon, plus some equally competent Iranian lady engineers including one running an AOG team in Dubai who were flown in when one of their B727s sat down on occasion. Obvious by exception, I know, but still good to see.
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From: Ташкент
Back in the 90's at University studying engineering at Liverpool their were very few women on the course, and the perception by many of the guys on the course were that they were "odd", and without being shouted down here, I would say they weren't too pretty either.
How time change in even 15 years. Now back in my old Department for a visit I find that the situation has entirely changed. Perhaps this will be reflected in this generations choice. Lets hope so.
greatwhitehunter - women are more tactile? (that's a compliment btw)
How time change in even 15 years. Now back in my old Department for a visit I find that the situation has entirely changed. Perhaps this will be reflected in this generations choice. Lets hope so.
greatwhitehunter - women are more tactile? (that's a compliment btw)
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: UK
Not strictly on post but I once saw a very competent B1 lady engineer struggling to change a 747 wheel on her own,- she was heavily pregnant at the time. Her colleagues were sat in a van at some distance 'enjoying' the spectacle. I'm glad to say they were given very short shrift when this was noticed. As for the lady she just took it in her stride, she was a great advert for women in engineering.
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From: Canada
Same in Canada
It's the same over on this side of the pond.
Two of my friends are recent university grads of Physics-engineering.
And the national trend in University as a whole is inching toward 60/40 women/men. But in the high math/science/engineering it is male dominated.
On the maintenance side in my tech school it was 96% male for aircraft maintenance.
And out in industry it's the same. I know two female AMEs that work on helicopters and they are there because they are just as good as the next 'guy'. There is definitely no discrimination issues. Just the way it works out.
Girlfriend's mom teaches nursing. She can count the number of guys on one hand out of 200 students.
That's life. Equality is here! Everybody has a fair shake!
It has gone to far actually. Try being an able-bodied fit young white male applying to university......the deck is stacked against you. All to make one more bleeding heart liberal feel less guilty about being a middle class white suburbanite.
Two of my friends are recent university grads of Physics-engineering.
And the national trend in University as a whole is inching toward 60/40 women/men. But in the high math/science/engineering it is male dominated.
On the maintenance side in my tech school it was 96% male for aircraft maintenance.
And out in industry it's the same. I know two female AMEs that work on helicopters and they are there because they are just as good as the next 'guy'. There is definitely no discrimination issues. Just the way it works out.
Girlfriend's mom teaches nursing. She can count the number of guys on one hand out of 200 students.
That's life. Equality is here! Everybody has a fair shake!
It has gone to far actually. Try being an able-bodied fit young white male applying to university......the deck is stacked against you. All to make one more bleeding heart liberal feel less guilty about being a middle class white suburbanite.
