10 months to go!!!!
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10 months to go!!!!
I've been busy over the past year or so self studying and attending courses and have now completed the majority of my B1 licence modules in preparation for leaving the RAF after 22 years.
I still need some experience though on civilian aircraft. I live in South Cheshire and am suitably located for Manchester Airport and at a push East Midlands and Liverpool.
Does anyone have any contacts I can talk to so I can offer my services possibly a couple of days a month to start with and then if available a little more often until I can start work, which is towards the end of July 2010? I was initially thinking of Monarch Airlines, Thomas Cook or any others based at Manchester.
I am also willing to be a 'spanner monkey' for any licensed engineers at those locations with a view of having my Log Book signed off as required.
I hope someone out there can give me the assistance and opportunity I feel I need.
I still need some experience though on civilian aircraft. I live in South Cheshire and am suitably located for Manchester Airport and at a push East Midlands and Liverpool.
Does anyone have any contacts I can talk to so I can offer my services possibly a couple of days a month to start with and then if available a little more often until I can start work, which is towards the end of July 2010? I was initially thinking of Monarch Airlines, Thomas Cook or any others based at Manchester.
I am also willing to be a 'spanner monkey' for any licensed engineers at those locations with a view of having my Log Book signed off as required.
I hope someone out there can give me the assistance and opportunity I feel I need.
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Thats very good of you, being prepared to get your hands dirty, however you might be a spanner monkey for longer than you think, having a basic ticket without type ratings means you will have to start as a grubby mechanic (providing of course you can get a job ) and be prepared to monkey about for quite some time before you get type rated, sadly even when you reach the dizzy heights of a type rated engineer you will especially if you want to work on the line be expected to do your own spanner monkeying, ...welcome to the real world
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Not sure Smudge what you are trying to say. I've been spannering for 22 years so it will come as no shock to me to get my hands dirty. What I'm after is experience on modern civil aircraft before applying for jobs and to start filling in my logbook.
Hopefully there is someone out there with a more positive outlook.
Hopefully there is someone out there with a more positive outlook.
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I personally don't think smudge was out of order in what he said. I'm guessing his response was aimed at the following quote from your post......
"I am also willing to be a 'spanner monkey' for any licensed engineers at those locations with a view of having my Log Book signed off as required."
It kind of implies that you are expecting to wander round in a shirt and tie just pushing buttons and doing all the nice clean easy jobs, but if you have to do the crap just to get signatures then you will do it, but not when you have your license. From my very limited experienece of working with guys still in the forces on military a/c there were 1 or 2 who thought themselves above getting stuck in. (not saying your one but there are some)
Things have changed now and as a license engineer I still am a spanner monkey but for myself. Even in a hangar environment the licensed engineer has to be productive rather than just sit drinking tea until a "spanner monkey" has taken a panel off etc etc etc.
"I am also willing to be a 'spanner monkey' for any licensed engineers at those locations with a view of having my Log Book signed off as required."
It kind of implies that you are expecting to wander round in a shirt and tie just pushing buttons and doing all the nice clean easy jobs, but if you have to do the crap just to get signatures then you will do it, but not when you have your license. From my very limited experienece of working with guys still in the forces on military a/c there were 1 or 2 who thought themselves above getting stuck in. (not saying your one but there are some)
Things have changed now and as a license engineer I still am a spanner monkey but for myself. Even in a hangar environment the licensed engineer has to be productive rather than just sit drinking tea until a "spanner monkey" has taken a panel off etc etc etc.
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Spot on mrmagoo, that post typifies the average 22 year RAF bloke not a clue how it works in the real world, we used to get them all the time when i worked in base maintanence, they turn up shoes highly polished, crap attidude and no tools, somehow expecting a supervisory roll because they have done 22 years and happened to have been a NCO and spent the last ten years telling someone else what to do, ..yeah right mate, now get those bog pipes stripped out
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I can see where the two posters are coming from here Appoo, we recieve a lot of applications from ex forces people, normally along with a very long impressive looking CV (normally written in unfathomable military speak), sadly the fact they may have served for many years and held quite senior postions means very little in the outside world and it oftens comes as rather a great shock to these people to find that in most cases all you can offer is a basic mechanics postion when they actually were rather expecting to walk into a supervisor/certifiying postion.
The fact you hold a basic licence doesnt really put you at any great advantage, without type ratings its useless to a empolyer and will not normally secure you a postion as a licenced engineer, the best you can do is try and obtain a postion as a mechanic gain some valuable hands on knowledge and hopefully manage to get the type courses you need, i will PM you with one or two contact names up at Manchester
The fact you hold a basic licence doesnt really put you at any great advantage, without type ratings its useless to a empolyer and will not normally secure you a postion as a licenced engineer, the best you can do is try and obtain a postion as a mechanic gain some valuable hands on knowledge and hopefully manage to get the type courses you need, i will PM you with one or two contact names up at Manchester
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smudge's comments may be a little on the harsh side but in the main he tells it exactly like it is. Your 22 years in the RAF working on 'military' aircraft to 'military' procedures counts for diddly squat out here in the real world I'm afraid. At best your background will get you a foot in the door as a mechanic providing you can find a job amongst all the other unemployed fitters who have relevant civil aircraft experience. Unfortunately there are far too many forces types who believe the world owes them a favour on leaving the services. I’ve come across a few (usually 22 year plus NCO’s) and they tend not to last very long.
It can be a real eye opener when you leave and start working alongside civvy trained fitters who not only know their stuff, but have years of experience to back it up. Many of these guys are sitting on basic licenses and you will be in direct competition with them for courses and promotion. Starting out in the civvy maintenance game is not like a typical posting to a new squadron in the mob where you get to drink loads of tea whilst some crusty old chief allows you to slowly ease your way into things. You are expected to hit the ground running and be competent in all areas including major structural repairs - food for thought for all those guys who’ve spent their entire service careers working just engines or airframes.
Life out here is what you make it. Turn up with a poor attitude and you’ll last all of 5 minutes. Those highly experienced civvy fitters will teach you a thing or two if you are prepared to let them. Certifying positions and decent salaries will not be too far away if you are prepared to knuckle down and get stuck in. The opportunities and rewards are there but you’ve got to prove yourself first, nobody is going to hand it to you on a plate.
It can be a real eye opener when you leave and start working alongside civvy trained fitters who not only know their stuff, but have years of experience to back it up. Many of these guys are sitting on basic licenses and you will be in direct competition with them for courses and promotion. Starting out in the civvy maintenance game is not like a typical posting to a new squadron in the mob where you get to drink loads of tea whilst some crusty old chief allows you to slowly ease your way into things. You are expected to hit the ground running and be competent in all areas including major structural repairs - food for thought for all those guys who’ve spent their entire service careers working just engines or airframes.
Life out here is what you make it. Turn up with a poor attitude and you’ll last all of 5 minutes. Those highly experienced civvy fitters will teach you a thing or two if you are prepared to let them. Certifying positions and decent salaries will not be too far away if you are prepared to knuckle down and get stuck in. The opportunities and rewards are there but you’ve got to prove yourself first, nobody is going to hand it to you on a plate.
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Hawker Beechcraft at Hawarden Airport ,Chester might let you do a bit of free spanner work.
If your any good they might even consider taking you on when you leave the Mob, but as others have said forget the services attitude as you will not last long in civillian life,Good luck.
If your any good they might even consider taking you on when you leave the Mob, but as others have said forget the services attitude as you will not last long in civillian life,Good luck.
Last edited by hawker man; 14th Oct 2009 at 20:12.
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All valid points so thanks for those, but what I was referring to when I said I was willing to be a 'spanner monkey' for a licensed engineer was just that, get stuck in and learn the systems and aircraft and if I'm correct doesn't a licensed engineer need to sign off your logbook?
I agree that I know very little about the civilian aviation industry but the thread is designed to give me the opportunity to learn and experience it.
I've been getting my hands dirty the whole of my career and yes doing the crap jobs others don't want. I've never hidden behind my rank or experience.
To have the opportunity to work alongside a licensed engineer would give me the opportunity to gain the experience I would need and that's not to say I de-value mechs and fitters, far from it. I've taught others as a fitter and been taught by those myself.
I am more than aware that my 22 years experience has very little relevance to civil aircraft which is why I'm asking and offering my services, however I do have the many of skillsets required in abundance and am able to adapt to change quickly.
I agree that I know very little about the civilian aviation industry but the thread is designed to give me the opportunity to learn and experience it.
I've been getting my hands dirty the whole of my career and yes doing the crap jobs others don't want. I've never hidden behind my rank or experience.
To have the opportunity to work alongside a licensed engineer would give me the opportunity to gain the experience I would need and that's not to say I de-value mechs and fitters, far from it. I've taught others as a fitter and been taught by those myself.
I am more than aware that my 22 years experience has very little relevance to civil aircraft which is why I'm asking and offering my services, however I do have the many of skillsets required in abundance and am able to adapt to change quickly.
Last edited by Appoo; 14th Oct 2009 at 19:00.
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Thanks for that Hawkerman. I will be in touch with Rodger in the near future.
I am more than willing to adapt to civilian industry and have never gone around with a stuck up attitude.
I am more than willing to adapt to civilian industry and have never gone around with a stuck up attitude.
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I am more than willing to adapt to civilian industry and have never gone around with a stuck up attitude.
I for one believe that your service time and experience does count for something, those basic skills are never forgotten. Unfortunately i've also met plenty of ex-mil types who take the superior route and fall flat on their faces, different kinds of people skills are definately required
I'm glad to see you're not one of them
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Life Outside After Mudmoving
A lot of what has been said is so right - especially WRT what the basic License is worth or gets you. When I left a secret AB in Oxford with A&C, A&P and a VS 744 course, I thought I had atleast done more than most - nope. I spent a good year + working LHR hangar's, STN and EMA just trying to get 744 approval. Eventually ended up in DXB line with Atlas on my A&P. Then got a start with Big Blue in AMS and that was the start of my B1 career - a good 4 years after leaving Cartoon Town.
But nothing is guaranteed!!!!
I recently left one job and the phone was dead for a good 3-4 weeks before I was offered my current position as a 744 Tech Rep/Flying Spanner. Cover includes, 744 all engines, 330 all engines and 777 with RR & GE (small and BIG). btw X2-16 GE - so it is possible + I have turned down a few good PERMIE jobs. Life as a Contractor suits me Sir!
IT'S ALL OUT THERE, BUT YOU ARE IN THE HANDS OF THE AGENCIES
But nothing is guaranteed!!!!
I recently left one job and the phone was dead for a good 3-4 weeks before I was offered my current position as a 744 Tech Rep/Flying Spanner. Cover includes, 744 all engines, 330 all engines and 777 with RR & GE (small and BIG). btw X2-16 GE - so it is possible + I have turned down a few good PERMIE jobs. Life as a Contractor suits me Sir!
IT'S ALL OUT THERE, BUT YOU ARE IN THE HANDS OF THE AGENCIES
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'You are expected to hit the ground running and be competent in all areas including major structural repairs - food for thought for all those guys who’ve spent their entire service careers working just engines or airframes'.
Sorry but I must take exception with this.There are lots of guys out there who are capable mechs and also sheeties,but there are also a hell of a lot who are just plain mechs who would run a mile if given a structural repair job.
OK being both is a major advantage,but not a necessity.
By the way I know a lot of sheeties who are crap at meching.
Sorry but I must take exception with this.There are lots of guys out there who are capable mechs and also sheeties,but there are also a hell of a lot who are just plain mechs who would run a mile if given a structural repair job.
OK being both is a major advantage,but not a necessity.
By the way I know a lot of sheeties who are crap at meching.
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And as for SPANNERING as an LAE - so far this week I have been in M1 and M2 fuel tanks, and tomorrow I will be 30ft up changing a wiper motor on my own. Then I'll be doing the stamping - THAT IS IF MY FINGERS HAVEN'T FROZEN OFF. It's kin cold here in The Central Region - (he haw he haw)
Further - I didn't spend my life in the guzzling in the behive - most of my 23 was mud moving Working Continuously Unrewarded!!!!
Further - I didn't spend my life in the guzzling in the behive - most of my 23 was mud moving Working Continuously Unrewarded!!!!
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WOTME - I fully agree with your comments and yes the sheetie side of things is not a necessity. However, I still stand by my original statement in that an employer taking you on as an A&C mechanic in base maintenance will expect you to have a reasonable understanding of skin work and be capable of carrying out repairs.
30AB-JK when did you leave BZZ's static display squadron? Just curious as we may have crossed paths.
30AB-JK when did you leave BZZ's static display squadron? Just curious as we may have crossed paths.
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+/- 9/11 - perfect timing. Still I had 6 months of gardening and brushing up on my writing skills, only to receive loads of Thanks but No Thanks Replies.
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Thanks Fargoo, at least someone out there is able to comment without bringing pre-conceived ideas to the forum without actually meeting or working with me.
I always knew when I started my licnece modules that I would need to start at the bottom and work my way up. I do have friends, ex-military, who have done the same and with success, so I am prepared to knuckle down and get stuck in. Doing my licence modules sooner takes some of the pressure off and provides a prospective employer possible flexibility and the knowledge that I am prepared to study and develop my skillset off my own back.
So, coming back to my initial thread. Is there anyone out there willing to offer me the opportunity to work with/for them for free intitially for a couple of days a month, increasing as I get closer to my exit date?
I always knew when I started my licnece modules that I would need to start at the bottom and work my way up. I do have friends, ex-military, who have done the same and with success, so I am prepared to knuckle down and get stuck in. Doing my licence modules sooner takes some of the pressure off and provides a prospective employer possible flexibility and the knowledge that I am prepared to study and develop my skillset off my own back.
So, coming back to my initial thread. Is there anyone out there willing to offer me the opportunity to work with/for them for free intitially for a couple of days a month, increasing as I get closer to my exit date?
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There are a couple of problems with trying to work at MAN or any UK airport for that matter.
Firstly is getting an airside pass, you need to be an employee first off, yes you can get temporary 1-5 or 60 day passes, but once you have had one of these you can't get another for 2 months.
If you were fortunate enough for someone to agree and get you a permanent pass, you will most likely have to pay for it. Plus the basic disclosure etc.
Secondly, insurance, if you are not an employee then you won't be covered under the companies liability insurance, unless you have personal liability insurance that covers you for damge/grounding an aircraft to the tune of $20,000,000 + then it becomes impossible to let you near an a/c.
Firstly is getting an airside pass, you need to be an employee first off, yes you can get temporary 1-5 or 60 day passes, but once you have had one of these you can't get another for 2 months.
If you were fortunate enough for someone to agree and get you a permanent pass, you will most likely have to pay for it. Plus the basic disclosure etc.
Secondly, insurance, if you are not an employee then you won't be covered under the companies liability insurance, unless you have personal liability insurance that covers you for damge/grounding an aircraft to the tune of $20,000,000 + then it becomes impossible to let you near an a/c.
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Never even crossed my mind regarding the airside pass, but it could be a problem. I thought my RAF id got me access anywhere - LOL before the anti-RAF brigade start again.
I agree the liability issue would be a problem but I was hoping that I would/could work under close supervision as I would only be doing a job which would have been tasked to a qualified engineer.
We do the same with work experience guys ready to leave school and thought the same could apply for me.
I agree the liability issue would be a problem but I was hoping that I would/could work under close supervision as I would only be doing a job which would have been tasked to a qualified engineer.
We do the same with work experience guys ready to leave school and thought the same could apply for me.