The Aircraft Engineer
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In support of the college route
I'm ready to be shot down....
The B1's 'churned out' by the colleges are not licenced engineers - they are fitters who have the B1 modules. The rational behind this approach is to provide fitters who have the POTENTIAL to reach B1 status after experience. Employers then have less training to worry about since their new fitters at least have a theoretical background and know what an accumulator is or why we fill the tyres with nitrogen.
The colleges and academys are constantly being informed by EASA that the industry is 75% under-manned, hence the need for each such establishment to 'churn out' up to 50 fitters a year - some of which will progress to employment, some will stay in education, and others will realise that they hate aircraft!
In this huge recession it has turned into survival of the fittest, and usually most experienced so the jobs are not there right now (hence I am now teaching in one of these academy's and not contracting)....
These college graduates are good people with the capacity to be excellent engineers - give them a chance!
The B1's 'churned out' by the colleges are not licenced engineers - they are fitters who have the B1 modules. The rational behind this approach is to provide fitters who have the POTENTIAL to reach B1 status after experience. Employers then have less training to worry about since their new fitters at least have a theoretical background and know what an accumulator is or why we fill the tyres with nitrogen.
The colleges and academys are constantly being informed by EASA that the industry is 75% under-manned, hence the need for each such establishment to 'churn out' up to 50 fitters a year - some of which will progress to employment, some will stay in education, and others will realise that they hate aircraft!
In this huge recession it has turned into survival of the fittest, and usually most experienced so the jobs are not there right now (hence I am now teaching in one of these academy's and not contracting)....
These college graduates are good people with the capacity to be excellent engineers - give them a chance!
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The B1's 'churned out' by the colleges are not licenced engineers - they are fitters who have the B1 modules.
These college graduates are good people with the capacity to be excellent engineers - give them a chance!
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Tranwell your talking rubbish , dont confuse airframe /engine fitters with quick fit fitters, a airframe fitter is someone who is highly skilled and has compleated a formal apprenticeship either in civvie stret or in the forces, these guy coming out of college are in no way shape or form aircraft fitters
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Rubbish?......... hmm. Four years spent taking aeroplanes apart (ie. wings off), Hand fitting skills - going from having never held a rivet gun to working to a 2 thou tolerance, running through DI's on Jetstream and 737's even GA stuff... sitting the CAA / EASA exams, refuelling, marshalling... these students are being put through the mill. What they lack is real world experience - that is the job of the employers.
Fitters are unlicenced engineers - Not time served. Time served fitters are time served.......
Apprenticeships are expensive and have all but dissolved. This is as good as it gets. What you can do is take these new guys under your wing and impart your glorious wisdom upon them.
The 10 week OJT is part of the degree and should not be confused with becoming an aircraft engineer. The OJT MUST be completed within a part 145 company on aircraft above 5700kg, so I'm not sure where you got your cessna ideas from....
As for me.... 15 years airframe / engine experience, RAF, Connie, licence modules.... I am a career fitter. I know what is required.
Fitters are unlicenced engineers - Not time served. Time served fitters are time served.......
Apprenticeships are expensive and have all but dissolved. This is as good as it gets. What you can do is take these new guys under your wing and impart your glorious wisdom upon them.
The 10 week OJT is part of the degree and should not be confused with becoming an aircraft engineer. The OJT MUST be completed within a part 145 company on aircraft above 5700kg, so I'm not sure where you got your cessna ideas from....
As for me.... 15 years airframe / engine experience, RAF, Connie, licence modules.... I am a career fitter. I know what is required.
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Sadly your wrong tranwell, a aircraft fitter is a skilled time served tradesman, your trying to diute the trade by suggesting you can call yourself a aircraft fitter when in fact your no such thing , i can assure you as someone who has been the recruiting game a long time if you apply for a aircraft fitters postion we require documented proof of formal apprentice training, i can also tell you chaps coming from the background your involved in are not regarded by the industry as aircraft fitters in fact i dont bother presenting CV,s from these people anymore as there nearly allways rejected as unsuitable.
Your also wrong regarding apprenticships, the industry has actually awoken to the fact that the supply of skilled fitters is dwindling and the only way to rectify this is not by some half baked college course but by a return to the old fashioned formal hands on apprenticeship, in fact i was talking to the CEO of a major UK MRO recently who was telling me the very same thing, they went down the route of employing people directly from colleges instead of training themselves and it was in his words a nightmare, these so called qualified people were useless in a hands on role, having none of the basic skills one would expect from even a second year apprentice , they have now reintroduced the four year hands on apprenticeship as have others, a very positive step id say, which gives me some reassurance the UK will in the future still be able to produce as they always did first class aircraft tradesmen
Your also wrong regarding apprenticships, the industry has actually awoken to the fact that the supply of skilled fitters is dwindling and the only way to rectify this is not by some half baked college course but by a return to the old fashioned formal hands on apprenticeship, in fact i was talking to the CEO of a major UK MRO recently who was telling me the very same thing, they went down the route of employing people directly from colleges instead of training themselves and it was in his words a nightmare, these so called qualified people were useless in a hands on role, having none of the basic skills one would expect from even a second year apprentice , they have now reintroduced the four year hands on apprenticeship as have others, a very positive step id say, which gives me some reassurance the UK will in the future still be able to produce as they always did first class aircraft tradesmen
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Mr Chowder, I sincerley hope that that was not a direct slur on MY status as a time-served and highly qualified fitter?
Ok, so its good news that apprenticeships are being re-introduced. What you will find is that the colleges and Academys are introducing much more practical into the courses. We have a major MRO who is only recruiting from us for the next 5 years. Several other MROs interview our guys first (this of course only applies to vacancies which require new blood). The advantage is that the MROs get an employee with good theoretical knowledge of the relevant subjects and they can then train those employees within their own 145/147 status to become B1 engineers at the 2 year mark. Very cheap and very effective.
I can see both sides to the arguement being an ex-RAF Heavy, but I still stand firm with the idea that employees who have done the 2 years college followed by 2 years EASA B1 modules are just as useful as a time served fitter. Just remember that these guys are not going to be competing with connies, but are looking for full time jobs with a major MRO with a view to becoming a B1.
Alot of these guys are ex-RAF and have found that their RAF apprenticeship is not good enough to progress to B1. They can be fitters forever, but these guys want more. I was in the same boat. If it wasn't for an Academy, I'd be well and truely out of the aviation industry.
If their skills are not up to your standards, then perhaps you should ask Flybe, BA, Lufthansa, KLM (who run their own year 0 courses), Emirates (who have their own B1 and college courses), Singapore Airlines (same) and a raft of others. These colleges and Academys are crying out for assistance from MROs in order to provide good standard engineers. Help us to help you!
Help these new mechanics (since we argue over the definition of fitter) become knowledgable about your specific aeroplanes, pass on this experience you have. The industry will die without new people.
Edit: There are no new apprenticeships! Monarch (?) have started their own scheme, but it not an old fasioned apprenticeship as we know it.
Edit 2: Fitter = mechanic. A mechanic is defined as a person who has left a training establishment with minimal practical experience, but is competent enough to perform servicing tasks with supervision.
A time-served mechanic is able to complete tasks to a high standard, but is still UNABLE to self-certify. A company/supervisor may allow the mechanic to complete the task without supervision, but it is the over signing B1 who ultimately bares the responsibility for that mechanic's work.
Edit 3: An interesting article concerning one of these academys - this one only concens itself with the college course as opposed to the EASA/FD follow on. One North East - News Article I draw your attention to the percentage of students who find their way into the industry - mainly as mechanics, but some progress to design, management, etc. Incidently, this academy has 100 students annually within the college and then reduces this to around 50 annually for the EASA B1 course. They have a purpose built hangar facility with two Jet Provost basic trainers (old and ropey, but utterly indestructable), a Piper Aztec, a BAC 1-11 (mainly used for cabin crew training), a Jetstream 200, a Jetstream 31 fuselage for airframe repairs, AND a 737-200. They are all dead airframes which allows the students to make mistakes now without endangering anyone's lives (see apprenticeships...). There are Two workshops to practice hand fitting skills, teaching students everything from what inches are right through to working to 2 thousandths of an inch tolerance on aircraft grade sheet metal. They learn electrics (something which is alien to me...) and even business practices! Human Factors is a key part these days, but I must add that these cources do not negate the need for the HF certificate as a requirement to work in the industry.
As for a recognised paper trail.... I have it on good authority that this particular academy is a Part 147 training facility and as such has some very stringent guidelines to work to. A typical school leaver, after 4 years there, will have gained: NVQ (practical based), National Certificate, City & Guilds 2597, Foundation Degree, and the EASA B1.1 modules. I think that is somewhat more qualified than your average apprentice. The degree has the 10 week OJT which must be completed within an EASA pt 145 company on aircraft over 5700Kg (no cessnas). The student is then able to approach MROs for a minimum of 2 years experience on a wide variety of tasks (EASA/CAA supplied), and then submit their logbook and portfolio to the relevant CAA inspector. It is then up to him whether to grant the issue of the B1.1 licence. In total, 6 years training...
Ok, so its good news that apprenticeships are being re-introduced. What you will find is that the colleges and Academys are introducing much more practical into the courses. We have a major MRO who is only recruiting from us for the next 5 years. Several other MROs interview our guys first (this of course only applies to vacancies which require new blood). The advantage is that the MROs get an employee with good theoretical knowledge of the relevant subjects and they can then train those employees within their own 145/147 status to become B1 engineers at the 2 year mark. Very cheap and very effective.
I can see both sides to the arguement being an ex-RAF Heavy, but I still stand firm with the idea that employees who have done the 2 years college followed by 2 years EASA B1 modules are just as useful as a time served fitter. Just remember that these guys are not going to be competing with connies, but are looking for full time jobs with a major MRO with a view to becoming a B1.
Alot of these guys are ex-RAF and have found that their RAF apprenticeship is not good enough to progress to B1. They can be fitters forever, but these guys want more. I was in the same boat. If it wasn't for an Academy, I'd be well and truely out of the aviation industry.
If their skills are not up to your standards, then perhaps you should ask Flybe, BA, Lufthansa, KLM (who run their own year 0 courses), Emirates (who have their own B1 and college courses), Singapore Airlines (same) and a raft of others. These colleges and Academys are crying out for assistance from MROs in order to provide good standard engineers. Help us to help you!
Help these new mechanics (since we argue over the definition of fitter) become knowledgable about your specific aeroplanes, pass on this experience you have. The industry will die without new people.
Edit: There are no new apprenticeships! Monarch (?) have started their own scheme, but it not an old fasioned apprenticeship as we know it.
Edit 2: Fitter = mechanic. A mechanic is defined as a person who has left a training establishment with minimal practical experience, but is competent enough to perform servicing tasks with supervision.
A time-served mechanic is able to complete tasks to a high standard, but is still UNABLE to self-certify. A company/supervisor may allow the mechanic to complete the task without supervision, but it is the over signing B1 who ultimately bares the responsibility for that mechanic's work.
Edit 3: An interesting article concerning one of these academys - this one only concens itself with the college course as opposed to the EASA/FD follow on. One North East - News Article I draw your attention to the percentage of students who find their way into the industry - mainly as mechanics, but some progress to design, management, etc. Incidently, this academy has 100 students annually within the college and then reduces this to around 50 annually for the EASA B1 course. They have a purpose built hangar facility with two Jet Provost basic trainers (old and ropey, but utterly indestructable), a Piper Aztec, a BAC 1-11 (mainly used for cabin crew training), a Jetstream 200, a Jetstream 31 fuselage for airframe repairs, AND a 737-200. They are all dead airframes which allows the students to make mistakes now without endangering anyone's lives (see apprenticeships...). There are Two workshops to practice hand fitting skills, teaching students everything from what inches are right through to working to 2 thousandths of an inch tolerance on aircraft grade sheet metal. They learn electrics (something which is alien to me...) and even business practices! Human Factors is a key part these days, but I must add that these cources do not negate the need for the HF certificate as a requirement to work in the industry.
As for a recognised paper trail.... I have it on good authority that this particular academy is a Part 147 training facility and as such has some very stringent guidelines to work to. A typical school leaver, after 4 years there, will have gained: NVQ (practical based), National Certificate, City & Guilds 2597, Foundation Degree, and the EASA B1.1 modules. I think that is somewhat more qualified than your average apprentice. The degree has the 10 week OJT which must be completed within an EASA pt 145 company on aircraft over 5700Kg (no cessnas). The student is then able to approach MROs for a minimum of 2 years experience on a wide variety of tasks (EASA/CAA supplied), and then submit their logbook and portfolio to the relevant CAA inspector. It is then up to him whether to grant the issue of the B1.1 licence. In total, 6 years training...
Last edited by Tranwell; 18th Jan 2010 at 17:54.
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lol
im currently studying a BTEC course at college and i can personally tell you i have learnt more about aircraft then i ever thought i would. the lessons include theory of flight, mathematics, practical work in a brand new facility with 5 small aircraft in the hangar to work on and a boeing 737 outside, and more... we learn all of the basics which is what we need to progress our education and to strive for the career that we want.
i disagree about the whole experience thing. just awnser me one question ok how are we supposed to get experience so that the industry will see us and that other "more experienced" engineers will respect us?
the awnser to that one is, we need a job to get experience to learn the trade from more experienced engineers and to become EXPERIENCED do you not get it at the end of the day we are going to need a job no matter what to gain the necassary experience required to become a licenced engineer simple as.
one other thing my whole opinion on this pettyness that is coming from 40 year old "experienced engineers" is pathetic, i dont understand how you think the industry will survive without the trade being passed on to younger, fitter, competent people! when you find the awnser to that question please tell me because i would love to know oh and one other thing i think you are all just scared that companies are going to opt for the younger, less expensive people because they sure will its all about money if we work for less and they can train us for less and we can adapt to new techniques and equipment better than you do and they save money on hiring less experienced engineers who will become very experienced and very good at their job in years to come i think they will go down that route.
so in my opinion please stop disrespecting young students who want a career in the aerospace industry because at the end of the day you rely on us to learn the trade to the best of ability, gain experience and to keep the industry afloat. without us it would be nothing and whats the good in that eh?
i disagree about the whole experience thing. just awnser me one question ok how are we supposed to get experience so that the industry will see us and that other "more experienced" engineers will respect us?
the awnser to that one is, we need a job to get experience to learn the trade from more experienced engineers and to become EXPERIENCED do you not get it at the end of the day we are going to need a job no matter what to gain the necassary experience required to become a licenced engineer simple as.
one other thing my whole opinion on this pettyness that is coming from 40 year old "experienced engineers" is pathetic, i dont understand how you think the industry will survive without the trade being passed on to younger, fitter, competent people! when you find the awnser to that question please tell me because i would love to know oh and one other thing i think you are all just scared that companies are going to opt for the younger, less expensive people because they sure will its all about money if we work for less and they can train us for less and we can adapt to new techniques and equipment better than you do and they save money on hiring less experienced engineers who will become very experienced and very good at their job in years to come i think they will go down that route.
so in my opinion please stop disrespecting young students who want a career in the aerospace industry because at the end of the day you rely on us to learn the trade to the best of ability, gain experience and to keep the industry afloat. without us it would be nothing and whats the good in that eh?
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It's all very well being younger and fitter, but experience is vital. An authorised training course only cuts the amount of experience required for a licence, it doesn't remove it completely. While I could go out and work on modules for the next year or two, I will not be able to work on aircraft unsupervised until I've done some proper spanner (or soldering iron) time served under the watchful eye of someone who can and will tell me I'm an idiot when I've done it wrong (and I will do it wrong sometimes, because I'll be learning while I'm working - the trick is not to make the same mistake twice). Personally I'm glad about this.
There may be lives hanging on every turn of the torque wrench and on every crimp of a wire, and getting it wrong due to inexperience is simply not an option.
I don't think there are any engineers in the industry who don't realise that there's a crunch point coming soon. There are a lot of people approaching retirement, and not enough youngsters to replace them. But harping on about how you should be given a free pass isn't going to persuade anyone that you're right - a licenced engineer is a highly skilled and highly qualified professional, with responsibilities measured in both millions of pounds (or dollars, or whatever else) and in lives.
The training courses, the degrees, the modules - they're a licence to start learning, nothing more, and even engineers who're in their sixties will (sometimes if in a good mood) admit that they've learnt something new. Engineers never stop learning, it's part of the job description, and those 'pathetic' older engineers have already had to cope with the changing nature of the workplace; when they were young, computers were in their infancy and if an office had even one it was a high-tech and forward-looking organisation where someone did a lot of maths. Few if any of them dreamed that one day there'd be a computer on every desk, all linked up so that people could communicate on an equal footing from all over the world, with gigabytes of data storage that didn't fill a hangar. I don't know what will change in the lifetime of a modern apprentice, but at just over 30 I've seen the engineering world revolutionised in ways that are both good and bad.
Getting good experience is always the most difficult part of the process, no-one denies that - but at least now apprenticeships are starting to come back into fashion, because enough people have woken up to the fact that we're losing our engineering capability having lost our manufacturing capability years ago. When I was the apprentice age there didn't seem to be any, they'd been killed off; it was the Forces or nothing, and I couldn't join the Forces. In a lot of ways I envy you; I'm too old for a modern apprenticeship, and I've got a partner and a mortgage, so I can't just head off to an academy for a few years without a lot of preparation. I will find my way into aviation engineering, be it with a CAD programme, a shiny CAA licence or a load of spreadsheets, but I will work for it every step of the way, and I will never question that a man who's been at the spanner end of the job for forty years will look down his nose at some green-as-grass wannabe who's studied a lot on paper but has never had to try and fix a problem at night in the middle of winter, with a gale blowing, snow falling and a lot of people waiting with various levels of patience for them to finish.
tl;dr : Respect goes both ways.
There may be lives hanging on every turn of the torque wrench and on every crimp of a wire, and getting it wrong due to inexperience is simply not an option.
I don't think there are any engineers in the industry who don't realise that there's a crunch point coming soon. There are a lot of people approaching retirement, and not enough youngsters to replace them. But harping on about how you should be given a free pass isn't going to persuade anyone that you're right - a licenced engineer is a highly skilled and highly qualified professional, with responsibilities measured in both millions of pounds (or dollars, or whatever else) and in lives.
The training courses, the degrees, the modules - they're a licence to start learning, nothing more, and even engineers who're in their sixties will (sometimes if in a good mood) admit that they've learnt something new. Engineers never stop learning, it's part of the job description, and those 'pathetic' older engineers have already had to cope with the changing nature of the workplace; when they were young, computers were in their infancy and if an office had even one it was a high-tech and forward-looking organisation where someone did a lot of maths. Few if any of them dreamed that one day there'd be a computer on every desk, all linked up so that people could communicate on an equal footing from all over the world, with gigabytes of data storage that didn't fill a hangar. I don't know what will change in the lifetime of a modern apprentice, but at just over 30 I've seen the engineering world revolutionised in ways that are both good and bad.
Getting good experience is always the most difficult part of the process, no-one denies that - but at least now apprenticeships are starting to come back into fashion, because enough people have woken up to the fact that we're losing our engineering capability having lost our manufacturing capability years ago. When I was the apprentice age there didn't seem to be any, they'd been killed off; it was the Forces or nothing, and I couldn't join the Forces. In a lot of ways I envy you; I'm too old for a modern apprenticeship, and I've got a partner and a mortgage, so I can't just head off to an academy for a few years without a lot of preparation. I will find my way into aviation engineering, be it with a CAD programme, a shiny CAA licence or a load of spreadsheets, but I will work for it every step of the way, and I will never question that a man who's been at the spanner end of the job for forty years will look down his nose at some green-as-grass wannabe who's studied a lot on paper but has never had to try and fix a problem at night in the middle of winter, with a gale blowing, snow falling and a lot of people waiting with various levels of patience for them to finish.
tl;dr : Respect goes both ways.
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LookingUpinhope, some sence at last. You are absolutely correct when you say that these courses only reduce the time required to go from no-one to tech. Currently, if you were to get the modules via licence by post, you would need 5 years relevant experience to gain a B1, but by going on an EASA approved B1 course, that time is reduced to 2 years. The training of course lasts 2 years, so you save 12 months in effect.
No-one employs new people to this industry without some training, and without apprenticeships, this has been the only route in for alot of people. These kids KNOW that the connies and long term mechs have years of experience, and need to share that knowledge as best they can. Accept the change, its here to stay, and help the academy's provide the right training!
No-one employs new people to this industry without some training, and without apprenticeships, this has been the only route in for alot of people. These kids KNOW that the connies and long term mechs have years of experience, and need to share that knowledge as best they can. Accept the change, its here to stay, and help the academy's provide the right training!
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Lala21.. You have a hell of a lot to learn about aircraft maintenance before you can shout your mouth off. Your BTEC will be worth jack ****e as anybody else who has done one will testify once they got into the real world. It won't get you a well paid job in this industry. It propably will not get you a job at all in the present climate. There are many PART 147 B1 and B2 trained newbies who can't get taken on at the moment. Experience is everything, especially on a type as no book or course will give you the real knowledge.
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Agreed. The BTEC will not get you a job. It will however grant access to a B1/degree course, which might get you a job.... (if we ever get out of this recession)
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Im afraid Lala your being sadly misled , im not a fitter or a engineer so i have no axe to grind, however i am in the business of recruiting engineers and have been so for some years and i can tell you what the industry wants, and thats time served experienced people who have compleated a proper aviation apprenticeship either with the forces or with a civilian MRO , they are very reluctant to consider people from a college background viewing them as a very poor substitute and not worth the trouble as they just dont have the skill levels that someone who has spent fours years learning his trade at the sharp end in the real world has.
Perfect example i had a request today for five fitters to assist with a b767 c check ,minimum requirement was at least five years experience in base maintenance, extensive skin repair knowledge and applicants MUST be time served with documentation to verify ,....... i dont make the rules we just try and supply what the MRO,s request
Perfect example i had a request today for five fitters to assist with a b767 c check ,minimum requirement was at least five years experience in base maintenance, extensive skin repair knowledge and applicants MUST be time served with documentation to verify ,....... i dont make the rules we just try and supply what the MRO,s request
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Hi
I am a B2 and I exfoliate with Clinique face scrub for my skin repair after a hard day on the tin'ter'web!
On a serious note, cut him some slack. There is now't wrong with being keen. You experienced chaps can use your skills to coach, rather than slap down.
I am a B2 and I exfoliate with Clinique face scrub for my skin repair after a hard day on the tin'ter'web!
On a serious note, cut him some slack. There is now't wrong with being keen. You experienced chaps can use your skills to coach, rather than slap down.
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Litebulbs, if some 18 year old guy doing a half baked qualification that is not recognised comes in with ears closed and mouth wide open slating your hard earned wisdom, wouldn't you pass a choice comment back?
I would have him cleaning out the vacumn tank IMHO..
He would learn something about aviation maintenance that no college would ever teach him!
Word of wisdom for all you college boys. The old duffers were once like you. They listened and learned from the crusty's of their time to get where they are today. Most people will glady tell you "How to open the can" in the real world (colleges don't do that). If you gob off at them, they won't be so accomodating..
Lala, an aircraft maintenance engineer has to have a good command of written English (unless he is a Polish or Phillipino connie). I think you need to brush up on yours.
I would have him cleaning out the vacumn tank IMHO..
He would learn something about aviation maintenance that no college would ever teach him!
Word of wisdom for all you college boys. The old duffers were once like you. They listened and learned from the crusty's of their time to get where they are today. Most people will glady tell you "How to open the can" in the real world (colleges don't do that). If you gob off at them, they won't be so accomodating..
Lala, an aircraft maintenance engineer has to have a good command of written English (unless he is a Polish or Phillipino connie). I think you need to brush up on yours.
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Guy's, you're not listening. These students are at least 20 with B1 modules under their belt - are you telling me that an approved EASA part 147 training course (funded by the addition of the BTEC/FD, etc) is not a recognised qualification...? These kids are NEW recruits who have a slight upper hand from 100% raw recruits.
Recruiters, if my requirement was for a new recruit to mould over time to my required standards, I would choose the guy with the B1 Modules, and not just a set of GCSE's.
If my requirement was for a contractor, I'd choose the most experienced person I could afford.
Recruiters, if my requirement was for a new recruit to mould over time to my required standards, I would choose the guy with the B1 Modules, and not just a set of GCSE's.
If my requirement was for a contractor, I'd choose the most experienced person I could afford.
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The problems surrounding these "new starters" are varied.
One is management perception of their capabilities. One manager stated publicly that X had all modules completed and would be up and running as a full licensed engineer in no time. Most offended when all the licensed guys fell about laughing. A couple of years down the road now and no sign of "up and running".
The attitude of some people beggars belief, arrogant not to put too fine a point on it. I don't know what some of the training schools are telling them but some do think that because they've passed the exams all they have to do is sit back and wait for the cash to roll in.
Recently had one newbie carrying out a task without the aid of a maintenance manual. On being questioned his response was that he'd done the job before. You might take that from an experienced fitter but not from a "trainee". The concept that somebody else is signing for and is responsible for his work seems to escape him.
There is the opposite side to the coin we have one new guy who's had a few jobs before going down this road and has some idea what the work place is about. Keen to learn and never complains whatever gets thrown his way. He's getting loads of help from all the licensed guys, gets picked to assist in the more interesting complex jobs and is clearly a great prospect for the future. He doesn't have any B1 modules completed!!! Attitude is more important than paper qualifications.
We are all aware of the age demographic in respect to licensed engineers and we all know that these young engineers are important for the future.
They are to be encouraged but to stand and say I'm a licensed engineer takes a bit more than waving a few pieces of paper.
One is management perception of their capabilities. One manager stated publicly that X had all modules completed and would be up and running as a full licensed engineer in no time. Most offended when all the licensed guys fell about laughing. A couple of years down the road now and no sign of "up and running".
The attitude of some people beggars belief, arrogant not to put too fine a point on it. I don't know what some of the training schools are telling them but some do think that because they've passed the exams all they have to do is sit back and wait for the cash to roll in.
Recently had one newbie carrying out a task without the aid of a maintenance manual. On being questioned his response was that he'd done the job before. You might take that from an experienced fitter but not from a "trainee". The concept that somebody else is signing for and is responsible for his work seems to escape him.
There is the opposite side to the coin we have one new guy who's had a few jobs before going down this road and has some idea what the work place is about. Keen to learn and never complains whatever gets thrown his way. He's getting loads of help from all the licensed guys, gets picked to assist in the more interesting complex jobs and is clearly a great prospect for the future. He doesn't have any B1 modules completed!!! Attitude is more important than paper qualifications.
We are all aware of the age demographic in respect to licensed engineers and we all know that these young engineers are important for the future.
They are to be encouraged but to stand and say I'm a licensed engineer takes a bit more than waving a few pieces of paper.
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Attitude is more important than paper qualifications.
I've seen it so many times........"So you've passed all your modules and can tell me, for example, how a rotary actuator works?"....so what....you're a licensed maintenance engineer when you can trouble shoot to identify the faulty actuator, find the part number, confirm the mod state, identify any relevant AD's, replace it, set it up and rig it, test it and complete all the necessary paperwork, in a required operational time-frame, using what resources are available at hand....but at the same time adhering to the regs.
Get my point? There is so much more to this job than passing exams....and colleges/ acadamies don't teach you that.
I've been fixing aircraft for over 20 years and I'm still learning stuff all the time.....usually from the even older guys who have seen it, been there etc and still have alot to offer if you are willing to listen....experience, but even more so, attitude, is everything.
Join Date: Jan 2010
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lol
You still dont get what im trying to say to you. For one i am not male im female shows how much stereotypes exsist in this industry and two i am not saying that i will be a licenced engineer straight away.
i was merely trying to point out that i will need the necassary qualifications to get a job to get EXPERIENCE you wont get licenced engineers dropping out of the sky will you.
yes my BTEC will be worth nothing in the real world but excuse me for not explaining that i am going to university this year to do the foundation degree in aerospace engineering with Kingston university and guess who runs that course KLM so basically i think that will be enough qualification to get job dont you.
Im not expecting to be on a high wage whilst training but i want the experience to become a good experienced engineer. without the on the job training ill be worth nothing to anyone.
Im sorry that i didnt explain to you what i was trying to say but i was rather tired and angry when i wrote that comment. I respect these older more experienced engineers because these will be my mentors and allow me to expand my knowledge of aircraft and the industry. The one thing i dont understand is why these older more experienced engineers dont respect us for trying to learn the trade.
And the whole apprenticeship thing is not available to most young people because one there is not many about and two there is not enough resources to help us find and get into them thats why we went down the college and university route.
i was going to go into the RAF but i aquired an injury 2 years ago that automatically banned me from going in so this was my only choice so please dont knock my confidence it really doesnt help me at all.
i was merely trying to point out that i will need the necassary qualifications to get a job to get EXPERIENCE you wont get licenced engineers dropping out of the sky will you.
yes my BTEC will be worth nothing in the real world but excuse me for not explaining that i am going to university this year to do the foundation degree in aerospace engineering with Kingston university and guess who runs that course KLM so basically i think that will be enough qualification to get job dont you.
Im not expecting to be on a high wage whilst training but i want the experience to become a good experienced engineer. without the on the job training ill be worth nothing to anyone.
Im sorry that i didnt explain to you what i was trying to say but i was rather tired and angry when i wrote that comment. I respect these older more experienced engineers because these will be my mentors and allow me to expand my knowledge of aircraft and the industry. The one thing i dont understand is why these older more experienced engineers dont respect us for trying to learn the trade.
And the whole apprenticeship thing is not available to most young people because one there is not many about and two there is not enough resources to help us find and get into them thats why we went down the college and university route.
i was going to go into the RAF but i aquired an injury 2 years ago that automatically banned me from going in so this was my only choice so please dont knock my confidence it really doesnt help me at all.
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The one thing i dont understand is why these older more experienced engineers dont respect us for trying to learn the trade
The traditional way to get in this industry (generally speaking) was to either serve a company apprenticeship or come into it having done similar in the Forces. You did all the crap jobs first, found your feet, proved your worth as a mechanic and earnt the respect of your peers....then was helped by the company to get a BCAR licence. Or alternatively you self-studied for a licence whilst working. Remember, approval to certify for work isn't a right once you've obtained a licence, you have to be recommended by a referee (i.e. satisfy your boss and the QA manager) and satisfy the CAA that you have the necessary experience to do the job.
In the new wonderful world of EASA, and with the regulators and industry finally waking up to the fact that there is a long term shortage of certifying personnel, we have pt66 based 'degree' courses and what is referred to by some as 'cornflake packet' training colleges.
It can seem to the older generation that licensed engineers are now churned out on the strength of the pieces of paper that they hold......not what they can do.
You (and others) are just going to have to harden up to the fact that this feeling is out there. Ignore it, study hard, get all the experience you can and good luck to you....just heed some of the advice in this thread.
You'll probably encounter alot of occasions where you feel you are not being used to your full potential, or not given the credit you think you deserve (I have everytime I've gone to a new company, or have been learning a new a/c type), it's the industry and human nature I'm afraid.....respect is earnt.