Engineers Duty Hours
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MONO thats the sort of answer that may just justify your position but don't get carried away with the being able to fly bit.
As a bunch you need to start driving in the same direction if you ever want to get out of the mess you lot are in.
Sticking your hand down a toilet isn't going to justify high wages nor are mindless responses that any "troll" can write such as smudgethecat going to further your cause. If you want the wages, prove that you are professional!
vortechs generator once again proving why you will never make it
when will you ever learn
As a bunch you need to start driving in the same direction if you ever want to get out of the mess you lot are in.
Sticking your hand down a toilet isn't going to justify high wages nor are mindless responses that any "troll" can write such as smudgethecat going to further your cause. If you want the wages, prove that you are professional!
vortechs generator once again proving why you will never make itwhen will you ever learn
Yamaha,your posts are shot through with unfounded assertions & assumptions.
Luckily not being in a mess, I am able to demonstrate my professionalism (& be handsomely rewarded!) on a daily basis.
Having little idea regarding the education, skills & capabilities required of an aircraft engineer & seemingly less about the practicalities involved in maintenance is no basis on which to pontificate.
Having met the best & worst, both in the air & on the ground, I find a personal assessment is the best basis on which to form an opinion
Those who judge or condemn through lack of knowledge, prejudice & consequently; stupidity, do so using their own 'compromised' standards.
Luckily not being in a mess, I am able to demonstrate my professionalism (& be handsomely rewarded!) on a daily basis.
Having little idea regarding the education, skills & capabilities required of an aircraft engineer & seemingly less about the practicalities involved in maintenance is no basis on which to pontificate.
Having met the best & worst, both in the air & on the ground, I find a personal assessment is the best basis on which to form an opinion
Those who judge or condemn through lack of knowledge, prejudice & consequently; stupidity, do so using their own 'compromised' standards.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You still haven't caught on have you.
It is not about, I can, I did, I am. That attitude keeps engineers down, it's exactly that attitude that ignores common sense on working hours and places others at risk, as just one example.
The quicker you start talking we did, we can, we are as a team, the quicker you all will have a bigger part of the pie.
You know that pie that "we" flight crews take a much larger slice from because we realised years ago that you cannot beat a good team.
Think about it
It is not about, I can, I did, I am. That attitude keeps engineers down, it's exactly that attitude that ignores common sense on working hours and places others at risk, as just one example.
The quicker you start talking we did, we can, we are as a team, the quicker you all will have a bigger part of the pie.
You know that pie that "we" flight crews take a much larger slice from because we realised years ago that you cannot beat a good team.
Think about it
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chippenham
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not to worry. Soon Yamaha and all his gang will be replaced by black boxes just as Flt engineers and Navigators have been. UAV's are a reality and it is only time before pilots will be a dying breed. The beancounters will see to that. However engineers will be around for ever!!!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
look at the smart language from a bunch individuals claiming they are worth more.
The public will never accept an pilotless cockpit.
The public have already accepted a downgrading of maintenance by virtue of JAA/EASA superstores and the continuous downgrading of your status.
I have never forgotten my roots (mechanic) and would love to see you guys earning more but you are your own worst enemy.
Just read the posts and you should be able to see for yourselves unless of course your heads are where they shouldn't be.
The public will never accept an pilotless cockpit.
The public have already accepted a downgrading of maintenance by virtue of JAA/EASA superstores and the continuous downgrading of your status.
I have never forgotten my roots (mechanic) and would love to see you guys earning more but you are your own worst enemy.
Just read the posts and you should be able to see for yourselves unless of course your heads are where they shouldn't be.
When they said pilotless they probably meant one pilot less!
Try employing an argument not based upon the "some of my best friends are........."school of discourse,it only demonstrates your lack of respect and speaking frankly I also doubt your mechanical pretensions!
Try employing an argument not based upon the "some of my best friends are........."school of discourse,it only demonstrates your lack of respect and speaking frankly I also doubt your mechanical pretensions!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Uk
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is a well known fact that engineers never stick together.Its just the kind of people we are. Having to work on many different types in one day in a line enviornment is not easy. It takes a different kind of person to do that, being responsible for 1000's of people in any one day and millions of pounds worth of aircraft is a lot of pressure on a person. And in the Hangar, stripping an aircraft to almost its bare bones and putting it back together in a matter of weeks is nothing short of a miracle.
A pilot is responsible for his/her aircraft and follows routine routine routine. It takes a different kind of person to be able to do the same mundane things day in day out for weeks on end and have the ability to respond/react in a safe manner when it all goes wrong, being responsible for a couple of hundred people in one day is alot of pressure also.
Personally i think its essential that pilots hours are restricted as their job is sooooo boring (to me) that any more hours and they'd be up there with dentists (shoe laces and belts removed). But thats only a personal opinion, I couldn't do it for a living. Now Hand gliding, thats fun!!!!
It takes two different kind of people to maintain and operate aircraft commercially from day to day. Engineers are one type and pilots another. Hats off to both.
A pilot is responsible for his/her aircraft and follows routine routine routine. It takes a different kind of person to be able to do the same mundane things day in day out for weeks on end and have the ability to respond/react in a safe manner when it all goes wrong, being responsible for a couple of hundred people in one day is alot of pressure also.
Personally i think its essential that pilots hours are restricted as their job is sooooo boring (to me) that any more hours and they'd be up there with dentists (shoe laces and belts removed). But thats only a personal opinion, I couldn't do it for a living. Now Hand gliding, thats fun!!!!
It takes two different kind of people to maintain and operate aircraft commercially from day to day. Engineers are one type and pilots another. Hats off to both.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: KUL
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LAE's duty time ???
Well, I've been in aviation maintenance for the past 20 years (including the 4 year apprenticeship) and most of it (for about about 14 years) was with 'line stations' section which was mainly relieving my line station based colleagues when they're on leave etc. and of course the 'flying spanner' duties ... which in 2006 included several charter/extra flts doing the KUL/BAH/DXB/KUL sector for a total of approx 22-23 hours in the crappy business class cabin of an A330 (seats only recline up to 45deg or so)
.... me and some of the other unlucky 'flying spanners' who got picked for the flts met 3 different sets of tech + cabin crew during the trip (they only did 1 sector each) and by the time we got home we were practically out cold
. That's the kind of cr@p we 'spanners' have to live with 24/7 just because we're the 'behind the scenes' guys. I fully agree if a legal limit is implemented for LAEs' duty time.
.... me and some of the other unlucky 'flying spanners' who got picked for the flts met 3 different sets of tech + cabin crew during the trip (they only did 1 sector each) and by the time we got home we were practically out cold
. That's the kind of cr@p we 'spanners' have to live with 24/7 just because we're the 'behind the scenes' guys. I fully agree if a legal limit is implemented for LAEs' duty time.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: A free wi_fi near you
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hear you! "spanners" just exist we are taken for granted. I bet in the eyes of management they think the o/t and daily allowances that we get makes up for what we give up. our nice homes (anythings got to be better than a hotel room) and how much resteraunt food can you eat its all the same after a while and lest not forget probably the most important FAMILY!
We as engineers as stated in this thread never stick together there is always someone that wants to suck up to management someone always trying to get ahead of the rest and in most cases someone that will work for cheaper rates just for a foot in the door. In engineering we all back stab each other to get a type course so that we can get that next rating but all pilots are type rated from day one all get the same courses.
Maybe it should be mandatory that all engineers should be given type courses as well. we as a whole need to show ourselves more respect and stand up for what we want.
Sure its a nice thing you can increase your take home pay with a few hours of o/t but wouldn't be better to get more wthout the o/t.
I believe we as licensed engineers should be paid for the knowledge we have, and I believe we should have max hours of duty just like pilots our job is just as critical as any in this industry, if we make a mistake it don't matter how good the crew is you've got problems!
We should be paid respective of time and knowledge.
when you compare pays with pilots ie captain on type=lic. eng on type who earns more whats the difference. I'm talking base pays only.
even when you add o/t I bet the pilot earns more and does less hours!
there is no comparison between an engineer who is/has been rated on type for 10years and a pilot of equal qualifications on the same type.(annual income)
I believe for to long engineers have been the worst enemy of the engineer.
We as engineers as stated in this thread never stick together there is always someone that wants to suck up to management someone always trying to get ahead of the rest and in most cases someone that will work for cheaper rates just for a foot in the door. In engineering we all back stab each other to get a type course so that we can get that next rating but all pilots are type rated from day one all get the same courses.
Maybe it should be mandatory that all engineers should be given type courses as well. we as a whole need to show ourselves more respect and stand up for what we want.
Sure its a nice thing you can increase your take home pay with a few hours of o/t but wouldn't be better to get more wthout the o/t.
I believe we as licensed engineers should be paid for the knowledge we have, and I believe we should have max hours of duty just like pilots our job is just as critical as any in this industry, if we make a mistake it don't matter how good the crew is you've got problems!
We should be paid respective of time and knowledge.
when you compare pays with pilots ie captain on type=lic. eng on type who earns more whats the difference. I'm talking base pays only.
even when you add o/t I bet the pilot earns more and does less hours!
there is no comparison between an engineer who is/has been rated on type for 10years and a pilot of equal qualifications on the same type.(annual income)
I believe for to long engineers have been the worst enemy of the engineer.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: down by the river
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can I just chip in here? I am a reasonably young fully qualified engineer, or "line certifying technician" as we're now officially known, I love my job. I have lots of intelligent professional friends who I know earn less than me, 90% of working people in the UK earn less than 48k, FACT. This puts most certifying staff in the UK in or around the top 10% of earners! For this money I enjoy a laid back atmosphere in my work place, a sense of purpose, plenty of time off a lot of it outside of weekends (and the masses of people that go out on them at once) I see more daylight than most office types and my job is physical so i'm not getting bed sores from an office chair. I have two holidays a year minimum, I drive a decent (ahem) car and I regularly eat out, if people find out what I do in conversation they are interested. In short, my life is good and my job is good. I know what a bad job is like and this isn't it! I would like to add that at the line station I work at, I rest assured that if the engineers didn't play ball the operation would literally grind to a halt, no exaggeration. So come on engineers, big up yourself and enjoy what you've got!
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK
Age: 57
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it's a wage thing.....
As a Licensed Contractor, I earn 3.5 times FO & 1.8 times Capt salary at my current location.
You'll seldom find me moaning about money - except how to keep it off Johnny tax man
As a Licensed Contractor, I earn 3.5 times FO & 1.8 times Capt salary at my current location.
You'll seldom find me moaning about money - except how to keep it off Johnny tax man
Oleo Sayer, you are missing the real point of this thread. The content of your post is exactly what management in any airline think about Engineers (ie we earn too much and do to little!)
The issue of maximum working hours for our industry is a serious matter which urgently needs addressing to give us the protection that flight crews have. It’s obvious that any move to sort this will not come from the Airlines. Until we can at last act professionally together as a group to try and resolve this, there will always be those who will happily continue to work ridiculous hours to line their pockets
I saw the program about 90% of the UK population earning less than 48K!! However, am I the only one that thinks that a lot more than 10% seem manage to drive flash cars and have very nice houses!? (What the program didn't mention was the statistics for how many self employed in the UK don't pay a lot of Tax!)
The issue of maximum working hours for our industry is a serious matter which urgently needs addressing to give us the protection that flight crews have. It’s obvious that any move to sort this will not come from the Airlines. Until we can at last act professionally together as a group to try and resolve this, there will always be those who will happily continue to work ridiculous hours to line their pockets
I saw the program about 90% of the UK population earning less than 48K!! However, am I the only one that thinks that a lot more than 10% seem manage to drive flash cars and have very nice houses!? (What the program didn't mention was the statistics for how many self employed in the UK don't pay a lot of Tax!)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: down by the river
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...erm, i may have drifted off of the point a little. I don't think things are so bad? there is always something to moan about, what i'm saying is that things are good for us, dwell on the positives. Moves by management to cut staff numbers are suicidal due to the nature of the beast, ie one minute ten blokes on a line drinking their 25th cup of tea trimming toenails with their leathermans, the next minute 3 gone on a AOG, two sickies, 3 down route and two running around like lunatics with lifejackets and such! we ARE needed, the thing is not to overstretch ourselves, we must always hang back just that little bit, do too much and its expected in the future. I'm not saying be a slacker, just don't do heroics and don't over-gobble on the o/t. Let demand out-weigh supply... am i making sense?.... Oh and about people in shiny motors, I know who bloke who lives in a very modest house and earns little, however he drives a very shiny audi because in his line of work the status thing is v. important, see him in the street and you would assume he wipes his ars@ on fifties, the truth is far from it. Any fool can get finance.
Oh and about people in shiny motors, I know who bloke who lives in a very modest house and earns little, however he drives a very shiny audi because in his line of work the status thing is v. important, see him in the street and you would assume he wipes his ars@ on fifties, the truth is far from it. Any fool can get finance.
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the end the regulator will bite. My last airline were acquiring a new type and when the application for a variation to the AOC was submitted, the airworthiness unit of the regulator refused to accept the plans for maintenance. They required that maintenance be outsourced until sufficient qualified staff, tooling and support facilities were in place. An expensive option given that the nearest MRO with capability on the type was two hours flying time away and not located at a scheduled destination for that type. One wonders how much the beanies think they have saved by shaving all slack out of the maintenance crews.
Maintenance is seen by the bean-counters as nothing but an undesirable cost to be cut to the bone. As long as employers can get away with cutting staff levels to the minimum levels (for that's what the regulations are) accepted by the regulators, engineers will remain overworked and underpaid.
The reality that good maintenance ensures aircraft availability and keeps 'the production line' flowing at full capacity is lost upon those who have no training or experience in production engineering or planning.
Maintenance is seen by the bean-counters as nothing but an undesirable cost to be cut to the bone. As long as employers can get away with cutting staff levels to the minimum levels (for that's what the regulations are) accepted by the regulators, engineers will remain overworked and underpaid.
The reality that good maintenance ensures aircraft availability and keeps 'the production line' flowing at full capacity is lost upon those who have no training or experience in production engineering or planning.
"They required that maintenance be outsourced until sufficient qualified staff, tooling and support facilities were in place."
...and well done by those Regulators too!
This is a prime example of Airlines and MRO bosses thinking that "Regulators" are long gone - and that the engineers will just do what is needed as an afterthought.
The main reason engineers are paid relatively so low is because the majority of the wage bill goes to the front-end drivers.
Engineers are easier to cut from a tight budget and perceived as easy to contract out (but later proves to be a false economy - as Michael O'Leary has learned)
As most companies employ not nearly enough engineers to do the required tasks; we have to work overtime, which shows up in budget costs, proving that more engineers are needed! However budget-readers just try to cut the overtime and, therefore, eventually fail to meet tasks due to maintenance failures.
The blame for all this lies squarely with operators (normally pilots) bleating about maintenance costs but the engineers get the brunt of it for daring to do (or not to do) overtime.
In the end - We engineers cannot placate all of the regulations, aspirations and implications imposed on us - so we just please ourselves!
...and well done by those Regulators too!
This is a prime example of Airlines and MRO bosses thinking that "Regulators" are long gone - and that the engineers will just do what is needed as an afterthought.
The main reason engineers are paid relatively so low is because the majority of the wage bill goes to the front-end drivers.
Engineers are easier to cut from a tight budget and perceived as easy to contract out (but later proves to be a false economy - as Michael O'Leary has learned)
As most companies employ not nearly enough engineers to do the required tasks; we have to work overtime, which shows up in budget costs, proving that more engineers are needed! However budget-readers just try to cut the overtime and, therefore, eventually fail to meet tasks due to maintenance failures.
The blame for all this lies squarely with operators (normally pilots) bleating about maintenance costs but the engineers get the brunt of it for daring to do (or not to do) overtime.
In the end - We engineers cannot placate all of the regulations, aspirations and implications imposed on us - so we just please ourselves!
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: A free wi_fi near you
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It will initially recruit 280 cabin crew and 100 pilots to operate the airline's first three Boeing 777-300ER aircraft (absract from the australian newspaper regarding V Aust. virgins new int carrier from OZ)
I wander how many engineers have been hired?
this is for 10 flights a week!
I wander how many engineers have been hired?
this is for 10 flights a week!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How much is a life worth?
Yamaha,
I take it you are sitting in a front seat, not that it matters when you come to a sudden stop such as against a mountainside. Just think for one moment - How much do you think your life is worth?
I am a certifying engineer and it is not impossible for me to sign out six 747s in one shift. Say 400 POB times six divided by my daily rate (and I am on a good rate), and your carcass is valued in cents, use the US ones as it looks a bit more.
Nowadays, I see the rate for 'instrument managers' ( the words of a captain)is coming down. I know some companies who pay maintenance more than pilots, (is this your problem?) So get off your high horse that you are worth a lot and the 'benders of the wrenches' should be thankful for what they get. Get back on the theme and either give an opinion of whether you think engineers hours should be regulated for safety, or sit in your seat and hope the man/woman who did whatever was not too tired to do it properly. As Smudge says don't start an us and them, you sound a pitiful character who wants to show you have climbed out of one hole into another. (allbeit better paid for less hours).
I take it you are sitting in a front seat, not that it matters when you come to a sudden stop such as against a mountainside. Just think for one moment - How much do you think your life is worth?
I am a certifying engineer and it is not impossible for me to sign out six 747s in one shift. Say 400 POB times six divided by my daily rate (and I am on a good rate), and your carcass is valued in cents, use the US ones as it looks a bit more.
Nowadays, I see the rate for 'instrument managers' ( the words of a captain)is coming down. I know some companies who pay maintenance more than pilots, (is this your problem?) So get off your high horse that you are worth a lot and the 'benders of the wrenches' should be thankful for what they get. Get back on the theme and either give an opinion of whether you think engineers hours should be regulated for safety, or sit in your seat and hope the man/woman who did whatever was not too tired to do it properly. As Smudge says don't start an us and them, you sound a pitiful character who wants to show you have climbed out of one hole into another. (allbeit better paid for less hours).
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
James, take our friend yamaha for what he is....a clown.
, although I do find him quite amusing.
As for working hours, I for one would hate it to be regulated. I am a B1 certifyer with a LCC, working in line maintenance with a 12 hour 2 day/2 night 4 off shift pattern. Basic wage with shift pay/approval pay etc is good. Put in a few hours o/t and the money is excellent.
These days, at least in the company I work for, shifts longer than 12 hours unless you are down route for an AOG are unheard of. All the extra hours overtime are on rostered days off. I compare this to years ago whilst working for Dan Air when ghosters were common. We even used to work ''reverse ghosters''! That was working a 12 hour dayshift after a 12 hour nightshift. Now that was a killer
Overtime is an option. You can take it or leave it. I personally enjoy this option of an extra grand a month if I want to buy something.
At the moment, we as licenced engineers/technicians/mechanics (whatever
) are in demand. I look through the back pages of Flight International and every month there is a job that I could fill if ever the need arises. I personally feel contented by this and am pleased that experienced engineers are in demand. The fact that craft apprenticeships were abandoned by the major carrier's in the 90's have strenghtened our position no end. We should all be gratefull.
, although I do find him quite amusing.As for working hours, I for one would hate it to be regulated. I am a B1 certifyer with a LCC, working in line maintenance with a 12 hour 2 day/2 night 4 off shift pattern. Basic wage with shift pay/approval pay etc is good. Put in a few hours o/t and the money is excellent.
These days, at least in the company I work for, shifts longer than 12 hours unless you are down route for an AOG are unheard of. All the extra hours overtime are on rostered days off. I compare this to years ago whilst working for Dan Air when ghosters were common. We even used to work ''reverse ghosters''! That was working a 12 hour dayshift after a 12 hour nightshift. Now that was a killer
Overtime is an option. You can take it or leave it. I personally enjoy this option of an extra grand a month if I want to buy something.
At the moment, we as licenced engineers/technicians/mechanics (whatever
) are in demand. I look through the back pages of Flight International and every month there is a job that I could fill if ever the need arises. I personally feel contented by this and am pleased that experienced engineers are in demand. The fact that craft apprenticeships were abandoned by the major carrier's in the 90's have strenghtened our position no end. We should all be gratefull.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Hopewell, Nova Scotia Canada
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good post eng123.
Canada is also hurting for Engineers and that gives all of us a good feeling. We still have a lot of companies that do not want to pay for good help so they get exactly what they pay for. To find people now a days with a 24/7 atitude is getting harder and harder. I still work by the old school only because that is what I have done for the past 35 years.
Canada is also hurting for Engineers and that gives all of us a good feeling. We still have a lot of companies that do not want to pay for good help so they get exactly what they pay for. To find people now a days with a 24/7 atitude is getting harder and harder. I still work by the old school only because that is what I have done for the past 35 years.
