Engineers - Keep Your Status!
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The school teacher situation is quite interesting as in some ways the jobs are similar i.e it's a practical job and it doesn't matter how many degrees you have. If you can't teach you can't teach.
Does the degree act as a glass ceiling through which you cannot pass without one.
I wonder how many head masters and other teachers in senior positions do not have degrees?
This discussion of who can and who cannot call themselves an engineer reminds me of the issue surrounding the rank structure for the newly formed Royal Air Force in 1918.
Lord Trenchard wanted the title Marshall of the RAF for the top job.
The army objected as the title of marshall was only awarded to senior generals who had proved themselves.
Trenchard won his argument by pointing to the title of Provost Marshall.
Step 1 is to ensure that the title of "engineer" only applies to those with a degree.
Step 2 is to put pressure on EASA to have the title "engineer" written into the legislation.
Step 3 Remove certification rights from non "engineers".
It's all about money. If they can restrict positions to degree holders only
by law, that reduces competition for well paid jobs.
This might be called a hidden agenda except for the fact that it's so obvious.
Does the degree act as a glass ceiling through which you cannot pass without one.
I wonder how many head masters and other teachers in senior positions do not have degrees?
This discussion of who can and who cannot call themselves an engineer reminds me of the issue surrounding the rank structure for the newly formed Royal Air Force in 1918.
Lord Trenchard wanted the title Marshall of the RAF for the top job.
The army objected as the title of marshall was only awarded to senior generals who had proved themselves.
Trenchard won his argument by pointing to the title of Provost Marshall.
Step 1 is to ensure that the title of "engineer" only applies to those with a degree.
Step 2 is to put pressure on EASA to have the title "engineer" written into the legislation.
Step 3 Remove certification rights from non "engineers".
It's all about money. If they can restrict positions to degree holders only
by law, that reduces competition for well paid jobs.
This might be called a hidden agenda except for the fact that it's so obvious.
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Having worked with degree educated "Engineers" and seen their practical capability, I wouldn't give some of them house room let alone give them certification rights. You can't legally certify aircraft if you haven't worked on them and most of these graduates wouldn't get within 100 yards of one if they had their choice.
If you remove certification rights from us "non degree technicians/engineers who is going to do it. Certainly not the graduate ones. If they had the approvals, their recency will be totally out of date. The airline industry would immediately grind very fast to a complete halt.
If you remove certification rights from us "non degree technicians/engineers who is going to do it. Certainly not the graduate ones. If they had the approvals, their recency will be totally out of date. The airline industry would immediately grind very fast to a complete halt.
I'm sure you'd do really well in a design office as well Mr Grumps - degrees are not intended to create maintenance engineers and aircraft inspectors, any more than you can expect the best maintainer in the world to know how to do stress analysis on a wing mainspar, or analyse the aerodynamic efficiency of the flaps. Both would probably be a bit bewildered if asked to set up manufacturing of a new aircraft from plans - that's another set of skills altogether.
We're all trained for specific jobs in this broad field called "Engineering" - let's just worry about accepting each other's equivalent standards, and avoiding giving too much status to the "photocopier engineer" who probably did a 3 week course once!
G
We're all trained for specific jobs in this broad field called "Engineering" - let's just worry about accepting each other's equivalent standards, and avoiding giving too much status to the "photocopier engineer" who probably did a 3 week course once!
G
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I was referring to the previous post by eric ferret and his 3 steps, which if read in the order written means the removal of certification for those without a degree. From my experience, not a practical idea.
In that I'd agree totally - surely the degree is irrelevant in this case. It's got to be down to demonstrated ability, regardless of training and education background.
G
G
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
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I agree with G. It's all about ability.
We have a guy working in our department at my university who has come from industry. He doesn't have degree, just many years of experience in his field, and yet he works comfortably with colleagues who hold degrees and doctorates. The bottom line is he's excellent at his job. The fact he doesn’t hold a degree/doctorate is irrelevant.
S
We have a guy working in our department at my university who has come from industry. He doesn't have degree, just many years of experience in his field, and yet he works comfortably with colleagues who hold degrees and doctorates. The bottom line is he's excellent at his job. The fact he doesn’t hold a degree/doctorate is irrelevant.
S
Cunning Artificer
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I feel that the whole issue is turned the wrong way. The LAE is licenced to practice - you need a licence to be allowed to issue a CRS. If you issue a CRS without holding a licence, there are crinminal sanctions. EASA and the FAA can call such people technicians or mechanics as they wish, but the ICAO refers to "Engineer's" Licences.
If the engineering profession wishes to protect the status of engineers, then graduate engineers in general should also need a licence or registration to practice engineering. If you hold yourself out to be an engineer when you aren't licenced or registered, there should be legal sanctions.
As an example, you can take a law degree, do the post-graduate course at The School of Law and pass their exams, but you can't practice as a solicitor unless and until you have been "admitted". Solicitors must renew their practicing certificates annually by proving they have practiced as a solicitor during the past 12 months. In UK you can take a medical degree and do the post-graduate training, but you can't practice as a Doctor of Medicine unless and until you are registered by the BMA and have a current certificate...
...and so on. In "The Professions" you must have the basic educational and professional qualifications and then be registered and/or certified in order to practice. Get yourself "struck-off" or let your registration lapse and you'll have to find another career.
The general public understands quite well what constitutes a Solicitor, Doctor, Dentist, Accountant, Psychologist and the like. The problem is that just anybody can call themselves an Engineer - and they often do!
If the engineering profession wishes to protect the status of engineers, then graduate engineers in general should also need a licence or registration to practice engineering. If you hold yourself out to be an engineer when you aren't licenced or registered, there should be legal sanctions.
As an example, you can take a law degree, do the post-graduate course at The School of Law and pass their exams, but you can't practice as a solicitor unless and until you have been "admitted". Solicitors must renew their practicing certificates annually by proving they have practiced as a solicitor during the past 12 months. In UK you can take a medical degree and do the post-graduate training, but you can't practice as a Doctor of Medicine unless and until you are registered by the BMA and have a current certificate...
...and so on. In "The Professions" you must have the basic educational and professional qualifications and then be registered and/or certified in order to practice. Get yourself "struck-off" or let your registration lapse and you'll have to find another career.
The general public understands quite well what constitutes a Solicitor, Doctor, Dentist, Accountant, Psychologist and the like. The problem is that just anybody can call themselves an Engineer - and they often do!
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Engineers
Gents
From a slightly different perspective, how do other countries regard LAEs/LAMEs/A&Ps and what title if any is accorded?
The term "engineer" in the aviation maintenance industry is based on historical usage and is traditionally accepted as a legitimate term for licenced aircarft maintenance personnel. If we are to be redesignated, retitled or whatever, should we not be provided with a rationale for the change by the redesignators.
From a slightly different perspective, how do other countries regard LAEs/LAMEs/A&Ps and what title if any is accorded?
The term "engineer" in the aviation maintenance industry is based on historical usage and is traditionally accepted as a legitimate term for licenced aircarft maintenance personnel. If we are to be redesignated, retitled or whatever, should we not be provided with a rationale for the change by the redesignators.
Cunning Artificer
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The term "engineer" in the aviation maintenance industry is based on historical usage and is traditionally accepted as a legitimate term for licenced aircarft maintenance personnel.
The recent revision of Annexe 1 (under pressure by several countries) to insert the words 'engineer/technician/mechanic' doesn't alter the fact that the description of LAMEs as "Engineers" was not simply a matter of convention or traditional useage.
The "Engineers" who applied that pressure do not have to be registered and regulated in the same manner as other "Professionals" and that is the simple reason for their lack of status in the community.
Last edited by Blacksheep; 23rd Apr 2007 at 03:02.
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I believe the original petition was based on being a chartered engineer, which is a lot of work post-graduation and working in the industry. You have to demonstrate to the engineering council that you have the knowledge and competencies which they themselves set out.
As a side question, is it possible for non-degree educated engineers/LAME's to gain IEng status?
As a side question, is it possible for non-degree educated engineers/LAME's to gain IEng status?
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Oh happy days. I don't know how long this worry has been around, but the debate was well on song when I first joined the IEE as a student member. I suspect it'll still be going strong when I'm nailed in my box.
As far as I was concerned when I was a practising engineer, the status that mattered to me was the status that went into the bank each month. I had plenty status enough, thank you.
Not so now that I'm a flying instructor - but now I've got kudos.
Madam Breakneck C. Eng.
As far as I was concerned when I was a practising engineer, the status that mattered to me was the status that went into the bank each month. I had plenty status enough, thank you.
Not so now that I'm a flying instructor - but now I've got kudos.
Madam Breakneck C. Eng.
