JAR 66 TYPES
Cunning Artificer
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,125
Likes: 7
From: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
It's easy to see how the Brits are wound up and the Continentals aren't. The UK CAA failed to prepare properly for JAA implementation while the various European regulatory bodies did their homework. Indeed, the UK CAA are still unable to give a straight answer to any question on JARs and seem to be as confused about it as we practitioners.
As one chap has already indicated, he had to spend well over a thousand pounds converting to JAR 66 and needed to personally organise the recognition of his training courses at his own expense. Its all right saying that your company QA department will do the business but in reality many people no longer work for the company that gave them the type training. And what about contractors?
No, JAR 66 has been very badly handled by the UK CAA, but I believe the relevant phrase is "Who guards the guards?" Personally I've no intention of wasting my time converting. When my current section L licence expires I'll flush it down the toilet and get a job in some other industry. Unfortunately, for the majority in our business, that's not an option. The government and regulators destroyed the once proud British aircraft manufacturing industry through mind boggling incompetence and now they're busy destroying the aircraft maintenance business as well. Sad,sad,sad...
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Through difficulties to the cinema
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Blacksheep ]
As one chap has already indicated, he had to spend well over a thousand pounds converting to JAR 66 and needed to personally organise the recognition of his training courses at his own expense. Its all right saying that your company QA department will do the business but in reality many people no longer work for the company that gave them the type training. And what about contractors?
No, JAR 66 has been very badly handled by the UK CAA, but I believe the relevant phrase is "Who guards the guards?" Personally I've no intention of wasting my time converting. When my current section L licence expires I'll flush it down the toilet and get a job in some other industry. Unfortunately, for the majority in our business, that's not an option. The government and regulators destroyed the once proud British aircraft manufacturing industry through mind boggling incompetence and now they're busy destroying the aircraft maintenance business as well. Sad,sad,sad...
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Through difficulties to the cinema
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Blacksheep ]
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: U.K
Blacksheep I have to agree with your comments regarding the way the industry is going.
After many years I still consider myself to be privileged to have completed an apprenticeship & to have worked whilst employed by one of the few remaining British aircraft manufacturers. Sadly & surely enough, one by one the factories closed & although the job was excellent, the ending of the Cold War mean't that prospects were pretty bleak. Unfortunately I found myself in a position where I had to get out before being yet another victim of the 'British Officespace Plc' redundancy program.
Although I've no regrets about moving from manufacture to maintenance ( the salary was certainly higher )it's been a hard slog to attain the LWTRs & the subsequent type authorisations.
Whilst I don't pretend to know much about the various European licenses or what extra JAR66 modules ( if any ) our colleagues in the other JAA member states have had to attain, the numerous posts & letters I've read on this subject certainly paint a picture of doom & gloom with respect to the UK licensed Engineers.
On the face of it, IMHO we are being let down by the CAA who are only succeeding in accelerating & worsening the current trend of a ever shrinking workforce of skilled & qualified Engineers in this country.
Personally I feel there is a genuine fear that we could be heading down the same creek as the teaching & nursing professions whereby a reliance on foreign labour is becoming the cheaper & easier option.
After many years I still consider myself to be privileged to have completed an apprenticeship & to have worked whilst employed by one of the few remaining British aircraft manufacturers. Sadly & surely enough, one by one the factories closed & although the job was excellent, the ending of the Cold War mean't that prospects were pretty bleak. Unfortunately I found myself in a position where I had to get out before being yet another victim of the 'British Officespace Plc' redundancy program.
Although I've no regrets about moving from manufacture to maintenance ( the salary was certainly higher )it's been a hard slog to attain the LWTRs & the subsequent type authorisations.
Whilst I don't pretend to know much about the various European licenses or what extra JAR66 modules ( if any ) our colleagues in the other JAA member states have had to attain, the numerous posts & letters I've read on this subject certainly paint a picture of doom & gloom with respect to the UK licensed Engineers.
On the face of it, IMHO we are being let down by the CAA who are only succeeding in accelerating & worsening the current trend of a ever shrinking workforce of skilled & qualified Engineers in this country.
Personally I feel there is a genuine fear that we could be heading down the same creek as the teaching & nursing professions whereby a reliance on foreign labour is becoming the cheaper & easier option.
Guest
Posts: n/a
By the way Techman, i work along side a French engineer A,C & X licensed and you could ask for a better work colleauge. However, i had to sign of an engine cowl scab repair patch with 20 cherry rivets. Why? because although he was licensed he had never done any skin work before and did not know what cherry rivets were. now what does that tell you?
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,444
Likes: 21
From: Beyond the black stump!
Blacksheep has hit the nail on the head....
Where is the accountability for this balls-up?
Ths most significant missed opportunity during this time, was to totally restructure this from an authority to an administration.
It is time that some sort of accountable external review body was created to sift through this disaster and sort it all out.
Can think of any company that would allow you to keep your job in the event of the various screw-ups that are being made here?
A good analogy might be to compare this situation with the problems Ansett had with the 767's earlier this year. They got shut-down and suffered continuing consequences, not only regulatory but commercially.
Government agencies on the other hand just plug along, like nothing happened. No-one is holding them accountable for their actions - because a public (transparent) mechanism for review does not exist! One thing the FAA has going for them, run into some beauracratic bull**** with them, and turn your Senator or Congressman on them - you'll see results immediately. They learned a long time ago, that by creating and empowering an administration, they provided the mechanism to administer the law created and approved by elected individuals on behalf of the people - not some entity that becomes a law unto itself and answers to no-one.
One final comment. Pen it off; I have worked with people certified by just about every licensing body worldwide. I could not tell you that any particular licence holder is intrinsically better, or worse, than any other. There are a variety of factors that produce the finished porduct. I do know however, a certain number of (good) CAA LAE's who would be unable to perform a sheet-metal repair that would be accepteable to even the most lax Inspector.
For that matter I know a few people who simply must have bribed the CAA in order to obtain their licence (or have been circulating the same set of goat-shagging photo's of the individuals involved.)
Where is the accountability for this balls-up?
Ths most significant missed opportunity during this time, was to totally restructure this from an authority to an administration.
It is time that some sort of accountable external review body was created to sift through this disaster and sort it all out.
Can think of any company that would allow you to keep your job in the event of the various screw-ups that are being made here?
A good analogy might be to compare this situation with the problems Ansett had with the 767's earlier this year. They got shut-down and suffered continuing consequences, not only regulatory but commercially.
Government agencies on the other hand just plug along, like nothing happened. No-one is holding them accountable for their actions - because a public (transparent) mechanism for review does not exist! One thing the FAA has going for them, run into some beauracratic bull**** with them, and turn your Senator or Congressman on them - you'll see results immediately. They learned a long time ago, that by creating and empowering an administration, they provided the mechanism to administer the law created and approved by elected individuals on behalf of the people - not some entity that becomes a law unto itself and answers to no-one.
One final comment. Pen it off; I have worked with people certified by just about every licensing body worldwide. I could not tell you that any particular licence holder is intrinsically better, or worse, than any other. There are a variety of factors that produce the finished porduct. I do know however, a certain number of (good) CAA LAE's who would be unable to perform a sheet-metal repair that would be accepteable to even the most lax Inspector.
For that matter I know a few people who simply must have bribed the CAA in order to obtain their licence (or have been circulating the same set of goat-shagging photo's of the individuals involved.)
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: U.K
Pen it off , I think Techman's latest post sounds vaguely familiar......
"I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"
Remember which classic that came from you "English Pig".
"I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"
Remember which classic that came from you "English Pig".
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
From: U.K.
Ali Crom I don't think everyone on the forum will be familiar with Monty Python as we are now in pursuit of the Holy Grail that is the JAR66 license!I urinate in your general direction!
Anyway getting back to the original topic; I now understand that the CAA/JAA will consider previous courses if that school will testify that they were in accordance to ATA 104 LEVEL 3.Now if I could only find out what that means!
Also, I don't know if that applies to type licences on your section L licence? Anyone info please?
Anyway getting back to the original topic; I now understand that the CAA/JAA will consider previous courses if that school will testify that they were in accordance to ATA 104 LEVEL 3.Now if I could only find out what that means!
Also, I don't know if that applies to type licences on your section L licence? Anyone info please?
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
Posts: 676
Likes: 0
From: Over The Hills And Far Away
Ali Crom you can take it any way you like.
Pointing fingers and putting other people or licences down, so that I can feel that I or my licence are superior, is not something that I need to do.
Somehow my skills dont seem to improve by pointing out other peoples lack off.
As Cyclic said, we can't all be master of all parts of the trade.
That is the case on the mainland atleast.
Pointing fingers and putting other people or licences down, so that I can feel that I or my licence are superior, is not something that I need to do.
Somehow my skills dont seem to improve by pointing out other peoples lack off.
As Cyclic said, we can't all be master of all parts of the trade.
That is the case on the mainland atleast.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: UK
Firstly, I am a multi X, six licensed, coneheaded product of good old BCAR section L orals and all. Not to mention proud of it.
I am in no way saying my skills are in any way shape or form "better" than our colleuges at Air France.
My question is, now that the first of June has come and gone, are NEW French (for example) engineers now going to have to get B1 or B2 licenses before they can have a type course, or will they be able to be granted a B1/2 by there company on completion of an aircraft course.
JAR66 is not a million miles removed from the process of section L. As in modular, multi choice and a few essays. Yes no oral is a big difference, but having to go to the French CAA (or 147 firms) and sit exams will be a real culture shock for some.
Also Gilles what percentage of engineers in France are licensed and also what percentage hold both B1 and B2 qualifications. I have only ever come across 3 people who can do the whole aircraft in the 20 years I have been in this game. Jack of all trades..... as we say in blighty.
I am in no way saying my skills are in any way shape or form "better" than our colleuges at Air France.
My question is, now that the first of June has come and gone, are NEW French (for example) engineers now going to have to get B1 or B2 licenses before they can have a type course, or will they be able to be granted a B1/2 by there company on completion of an aircraft course.
JAR66 is not a million miles removed from the process of section L. As in modular, multi choice and a few essays. Yes no oral is a big difference, but having to go to the French CAA (or 147 firms) and sit exams will be a real culture shock for some.
Also Gilles what percentage of engineers in France are licensed and also what percentage hold both B1 and B2 qualifications. I have only ever come across 3 people who can do the whole aircraft in the 20 years I have been in this game. Jack of all trades..... as we say in blighty.
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Hi all, I have been reading prune for a while and feel I have something to contribute to this chat.
I have worked in France for a few years as A C and X certifier and think I have learned a few things.
I agree that it is not a level playing field, the CAA have got on with JAR 66 in my opinion but as usual taken it to the extreme. I have heard on more than one occassion that a manufacturers course will not be accepted. Also the fees we are paying are disgusting.
A colegue with a Scandanavian Licence just did a staight conversion. No fees no bull just handed his licence in for the first of June and got the new one back. I understand that this licence was fairly well aligned to the current JAA set up though.
With regard to the French system I dont know where Giles got his licence but my French colegues cant get one and are livid with the DGAC over it. These guys have got the French equivilent of ALEA involved but are still waiting on the outcome.
Their opinion is that the DGAC has been stalling for years due to pressure from AF.Also there is no exam proccess set up yet for new engineers.
Would be gratefull to Giles if he would coment on this as its not eurobashing just saying what I understand
I have worked in France for a few years as A C and X certifier and think I have learned a few things.
I agree that it is not a level playing field, the CAA have got on with JAR 66 in my opinion but as usual taken it to the extreme. I have heard on more than one occassion that a manufacturers course will not be accepted. Also the fees we are paying are disgusting.
A colegue with a Scandanavian Licence just did a staight conversion. No fees no bull just handed his licence in for the first of June and got the new one back. I understand that this licence was fairly well aligned to the current JAA set up though.
With regard to the French system I dont know where Giles got his licence but my French colegues cant get one and are livid with the DGAC over it. These guys have got the French equivilent of ALEA involved but are still waiting on the outcome.
Their opinion is that the DGAC has been stalling for years due to pressure from AF.Also there is no exam proccess set up yet for new engineers.
Would be gratefull to Giles if he would coment on this as its not eurobashing just saying what I understand
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: UK
Bus.
You can borrow book 1 with pleasure,I'm not using it at the moment,my time is being spent on studying European history and culture in preparation for my European licence conversion.
Let me know how I can get the book to you.
Regards as always.
You can borrow book 1 with pleasure,I'm not using it at the moment,my time is being spent on studying European history and culture in preparation for my European licence conversion.
Let me know how I can get the book to you.
Regards as always.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Ok I am really confused here, I am only a oz lame so we are really removed from all the stuff you are talking about. First question is, 1) Is the JAR66 a licence that you can carry with you from job to job, or is it a authority that is only active while you are working with a company?
2) What is this B1 and B2 that you go on about. Once you have a JAR66 does that not entitle you to perform the CRS on your rating?
3) How do I go about getting my OZ licence converted to JAR66. If possible??
Lets face it, to think that it wont be applicable here is to stick your head in the sand.
Cheers
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Aerosexual ]
2) What is this B1 and B2 that you go on about. Once you have a JAR66 does that not entitle you to perform the CRS on your rating?
3) How do I go about getting my OZ licence converted to JAR66. If possible??
Lets face it, to think that it wont be applicable here is to stick your head in the sand.
Cheers
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Aerosexual ]
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: N4727.2E00833.5
Aerosexual, please refer to the CAA Website www.caa.co.uk and find an answer to your questions. 
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Noted ]
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Noted ]
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Noted ]
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Noted ]
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: Luton
JAR 66 is the Millennium Dome of the aviation industry.
Its expensive. Not needed and an embarassment.
All the time the rail network occupies more column inches than the collapse of aviation. The faceless buerocrats who change systems for change sake purely to justify their own positions are happy.
This is why JAR66 is becoming such a Hydra. Cut one head off by satisfying a requirement and another two grow to replace it. All the time securing more agency jobs. The authority claim "allegedly" that the regulations are open to interpretation? B#ll#cks!!!! Since when has aircraft maintenance been open to interpretation? The regulations need to be concise and transparent.
Of course all the time this is happening the CAA hold onto ever increasing amounts of money while ever increasing numbers of engineers wait for exam dates or renewals.
Perhaps the only way to defeat this is to ignore the requirements (as most of the other member states are)and end up being given one because everything grinds to a halt?
Its expensive. Not needed and an embarassment.
All the time the rail network occupies more column inches than the collapse of aviation. The faceless buerocrats who change systems for change sake purely to justify their own positions are happy.
This is why JAR66 is becoming such a Hydra. Cut one head off by satisfying a requirement and another two grow to replace it. All the time securing more agency jobs. The authority claim "allegedly" that the regulations are open to interpretation? B#ll#cks!!!! Since when has aircraft maintenance been open to interpretation? The regulations need to be concise and transparent.
Of course all the time this is happening the CAA hold onto ever increasing amounts of money while ever increasing numbers of engineers wait for exam dates or renewals.
Perhaps the only way to defeat this is to ignore the requirements (as most of the other member states are)and end up being given one because everything grinds to a halt?
