Manning Levels
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Manning Levels
Just wondering what the manning levels are like with different companies. We have six aircraft based and have anything from 3 to 6 staff on duty. We are expected to carry out all servicing, snags and Line "A" checks. We occasionally call on our main base for back up if we hit major problems. We often moan about lack of manpower but are you in a worse position???
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Hi TIM my old m8,
This could have the makings of a really good thread, as I'd love to see how the other half lives.
At base, we are manned on the amount of 'A' checks and 'C' checks we are anticipated to do; AOG cover wasn't taken into consideration by the insultants, sorry, consultants (actually, I am not sorry at all, insultant is a good discription of these people who have no inside knowlidge of the job, yet tell us that we can do more for less, but that is another thread) after they last paid us a visit. So, on a cold night a little while ago, on several occasions I had to go to LGW and MAN for AOG cover and line 'A' check cover. I thought that this might be a case of over reaction by outstations until I arrived. Along with the work that we from LTN had to do, there were something like 8 aircraft either arriving or departing while we were there, and three blokes on shift! Obviously something has to give with these manning levels, and as you proberbly know, recently we have experienced more than our fair share of accidents, but that too is another thread!
So come on all you over worked, under paid engineers out there, tell all, how do your management get a quart into a pint pot? are you pushed into making dodgy decisions by lack of man power, or do you find that you are playing tiddly winks in the crew room most of the day as there isn't enough work to do. Oh, sorry, that last comment only applies to pilots, not engineers.
This could have the makings of a really good thread, as I'd love to see how the other half lives.
At base, we are manned on the amount of 'A' checks and 'C' checks we are anticipated to do; AOG cover wasn't taken into consideration by the insultants, sorry, consultants (actually, I am not sorry at all, insultant is a good discription of these people who have no inside knowlidge of the job, yet tell us that we can do more for less, but that is another thread) after they last paid us a visit. So, on a cold night a little while ago, on several occasions I had to go to LGW and MAN for AOG cover and line 'A' check cover. I thought that this might be a case of over reaction by outstations until I arrived. Along with the work that we from LTN had to do, there were something like 8 aircraft either arriving or departing while we were there, and three blokes on shift! Obviously something has to give with these manning levels, and as you proberbly know, recently we have experienced more than our fair share of accidents, but that too is another thread!
So come on all you over worked, under paid engineers out there, tell all, how do your management get a quart into a pint pot? are you pushed into making dodgy decisions by lack of man power, or do you find that you are playing tiddly winks in the crew room most of the day as there isn't enough work to do. Oh, sorry, that last comment only applies to pilots, not engineers.
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I can't give exact figures off the top of my head but I know the fleet is growing and the number of engineers is falling due to retirement and young lads getting A+P's rather than JAR66 licence leaving for better jobs. My gripe however is when the aircraft lands it is towed off terminal to all points of the compass, only to be towed back again before you get a chance to work them. When parked on these remote stands where APU running is forbidden by the Brothers Against Aviation we wait for ages for ground power to be provided. Result - apparent surplus of staff - playing tiddlywinks - watching their laundry go round in our tumble dryer - because although the aircraft is on the ground for 6 or more hours you never get the aircraft powered up and stationary for more than 2 hours. I'll work out the staff to aircraft ratio and post again, but what do I use as available access time for aircraft on the ground?
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Time Ex,
Life in the sheds gets pretty lonely these days , especially on the late shifts.
Sometimes you might see as few as 7 or 8 people working the a/c in on a major check ( no they haven't trapped off either )
I know of one hangar who will be losing almost an entire shift due to retirements in the not too distant future & I don't think there's any plans to replace them either.
But there's always the PEP's to fill the gaps. Ah yes , the future engineers , highly trained & motivated professionals. It's a shame most of them aspire to become managers rather than fixers.
So where are all the apprentices now?
Much is said about the shortage of licenced engineers but the shortage of mechanic/technician grades with adequate a/c training/experience is becoming of equal concern. The bean counters have no doubt put a case forward for effectively scrapping the apprenticeship scheme because in their eyes , fixing a/c is just like fixing a mecano set together - No skills reqd.
AC.
Life in the sheds gets pretty lonely these days , especially on the late shifts.
Sometimes you might see as few as 7 or 8 people working the a/c in on a major check ( no they haven't trapped off either )
I know of one hangar who will be losing almost an entire shift due to retirements in the not too distant future & I don't think there's any plans to replace them either.
But there's always the PEP's to fill the gaps. Ah yes , the future engineers , highly trained & motivated professionals. It's a shame most of them aspire to become managers rather than fixers.
So where are all the apprentices now?
Much is said about the shortage of licenced engineers but the shortage of mechanic/technician grades with adequate a/c training/experience is becoming of equal concern. The bean counters have no doubt put a case forward for effectively scrapping the apprenticeship scheme because in their eyes , fixing a/c is just like fixing a mecano set together - No skills reqd.
AC.
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Ali,what are PEP'S, and showing your age,
Meccano,did require some mechanical aptitude.
Is it still around?Meccano or mechanical aptitude?
Actually it's all our fault.How many fathers these days would say to their boys and gals 'hey,i will show you how to strip and rebuild this old engine"?
I'm too knackeredafter nights to even help with the homework.And anyway in this throw away age what does it matter anyway?
Meccano,did require some mechanical aptitude.
Is it still around?Meccano or mechanical aptitude?
Actually it's all our fault.How many fathers these days would say to their boys and gals 'hey,i will show you how to strip and rebuild this old engine"?
I'm too knackeredafter nights to even help with the homework.And anyway in this throw away age what does it matter anyway?
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Aeroguru,
You maybe suprised to learn that I did once own A well worn , handed down meccano set.
But I don't think aptitude alone is enough to qualify for a/c mechanic/technician.
During my apprenticeship I'd like to think that those seemingly pointless excersises of filing lumps of metal have taught me not only how to use a file properly but to appreciate & instil what working to standards & fine tolerances is all about. A quality that is a necessary evil in this game.
My point is simply this. As there are very few highly skilled , a/c manufacturer or military service trained personel for the airlines to poach , would it not be a good idea for the companies concerned to take a more long term approach & train more apprentices?
The PEP programme ( Professional Engineer ) has been set up to try to address the problem of the shortage of licensed people .
The 4 year programme is aimed at giving some very bright young individuals the oppportunity to gain an HND in Aeronautical Engineering , A JAR 66 licence & the option to study for a BEng Degree in Air Transport Engineering . This sounds great but we don't need more potential roller stamping managers it's the guys & gals who actually fix the kites who are needed with real hands on skills.
So from an A & C perspective I'm very much aware that these machines are becoming more & more technologically advanced with the reliance on computers & fly-by-wire but until the manufacturers can design & build a/c that are entirely corrosion , crack , baggage handler & pilot pranging proof , we'll be needing more not less apprentices for the future engineers.
You maybe suprised to learn that I did once own A well worn , handed down meccano set.
But I don't think aptitude alone is enough to qualify for a/c mechanic/technician.
During my apprenticeship I'd like to think that those seemingly pointless excersises of filing lumps of metal have taught me not only how to use a file properly but to appreciate & instil what working to standards & fine tolerances is all about. A quality that is a necessary evil in this game.
My point is simply this. As there are very few highly skilled , a/c manufacturer or military service trained personel for the airlines to poach , would it not be a good idea for the companies concerned to take a more long term approach & train more apprentices?
The PEP programme ( Professional Engineer ) has been set up to try to address the problem of the shortage of licensed people .
The 4 year programme is aimed at giving some very bright young individuals the oppportunity to gain an HND in Aeronautical Engineering , A JAR 66 licence & the option to study for a BEng Degree in Air Transport Engineering . This sounds great but we don't need more potential roller stamping managers it's the guys & gals who actually fix the kites who are needed with real hands on skills.
So from an A & C perspective I'm very much aware that these machines are becoming more & more technologically advanced with the reliance on computers & fly-by-wire but until the manufacturers can design & build a/c that are entirely corrosion , crack , baggage handler & pilot pranging proof , we'll be needing more not less apprentices for the future engineers.
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Ali Crom
You are quite right about losing Tradesmen, our shift loses 3 this month and a further 2 that we know of this year, of the 2 that go this month they are guys who have got A+P's and jobs elsewhere - Germany and Canada, the other is a lifer who made it to retirement.
As for the sheds, I've done my time in there. Last Saturday I was working an aircraft on TE6 and needed some locking wire, I nipped in the hangar opposite to go to the stores rather than back to the Central Area and saw a guy apparently working on his own on a 767 tail docking, that can't be safe? I couldn't see another soul in the hangar. Sad to see the pnuematics section missing, talk about ghost town. I think I scared the S.H.!.T. out of the storeman. On the way out I nearly went flying over the 757 earthing wire that was like a trip wire to catch trespassers, I put it back, by the way, but I thought if I had broken my leg or worse it would have Monday morning at the earliest before I were found.
You are quite right about losing Tradesmen, our shift loses 3 this month and a further 2 that we know of this year, of the 2 that go this month they are guys who have got A+P's and jobs elsewhere - Germany and Canada, the other is a lifer who made it to retirement.
As for the sheds, I've done my time in there. Last Saturday I was working an aircraft on TE6 and needed some locking wire, I nipped in the hangar opposite to go to the stores rather than back to the Central Area and saw a guy apparently working on his own on a 767 tail docking, that can't be safe? I couldn't see another soul in the hangar. Sad to see the pnuematics section missing, talk about ghost town. I think I scared the S.H.!.T. out of the storeman. On the way out I nearly went flying over the 757 earthing wire that was like a trip wire to catch trespassers, I put it back, by the way, but I thought if I had broken my leg or worse it would have Monday morning at the earliest before I were found.
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I think most engineers are in a similar position to those above. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies by working excessive amounts of overtime and accepting shift patterns that do not give adequate rest periods, I know some guys that happily work 19 days on the trot without a day off (normal shift plus otime), you can't tell me that this is safe or healthy. Management are happy because no laws have been broken and otime is cheaper than employing the proper number of engineers. The only thing that will change this industry wide is to have laws introduced that limit duty hours - same as the pilots, I know ours aren't overworked. This would ensure that management would now be more accountable than under the present system of control (AWN47).
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Why do we do it? Are we motivated by greed or are we so dedicated to our companies that we feel obligated to work all the hours under the sun. I think if we were regulated it would be a good thing, although it would have a dramatic effect on salaries of those who do more hours than the hangar cat!! Are those guys safe. They regulate pilots because excessive hours/days are deemed to be detrimental to safety, it has to be the same for Engineers. We make decisions that could have disasterous consequences on both pilots and passengers.
What is the answer.....I dont know.
What is the answer.....I dont know.
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Overtime - the "O" word - for a while in Bob's Airline was not to be tolerated at any cost but in recent months as people find better ways of earning a living, they have to top up the manning level somehow.
I see a work/life profile here, I used to do overtime, mainly ghosters after a late shift.
Job and away was the policy. When I did it I was recently married with mortgage.
At the moment I have children and a working wife to accomodate which restricts my opportunities to do overtime. If I'm honest,
I am too knackered at the end of my shift, to do rest day working.
I do see guy's who have to seek overtime to keep their head above water and if it's not available it is a major problem for them.
These guys have either lots of crumb snatching kids, the CSA after them or they are older guys nest egging for their retirement. I don't see any company loyalty at all.
I can see myself in the future, childfree years, putting in a few hours to save for retirement. Or will I be trying to put the the kids through university, yet another observation I have made.
All said and done, I would not work overtime if I was too tired to do it. I encourage other professionals to take the same approach. At the end of a 7 day shift whether it's earlies or lates I am too knackered to put my name forward.
I see a work/life profile here, I used to do overtime, mainly ghosters after a late shift.
Job and away was the policy. When I did it I was recently married with mortgage.
At the moment I have children and a working wife to accomodate which restricts my opportunities to do overtime. If I'm honest,
I am too knackered at the end of my shift, to do rest day working.
I do see guy's who have to seek overtime to keep their head above water and if it's not available it is a major problem for them.
These guys have either lots of crumb snatching kids, the CSA after them or they are older guys nest egging for their retirement. I don't see any company loyalty at all.
I can see myself in the future, childfree years, putting in a few hours to save for retirement. Or will I be trying to put the the kids through university, yet another observation I have made.
All said and done, I would not work overtime if I was too tired to do it. I encourage other professionals to take the same approach. At the end of a 7 day shift whether it's earlies or lates I am too knackered to put my name forward.
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Tx ,
Your spot on but another thing worth a mention is the fact that overtime is no longer laid on exclusively for those critical jobs and/or high man hour jobs that could not be contained within the allotted downtime.
Many of the major inputs in the hangars now have o/t planned into the check ( although when asked its not the official line )so it has almost become the norm & there are some engineers who appear to be living in the hangar.
At present there is also a contingency of guys from the Concorde hangar who have helped to top up the numbers but if and when the Rocket does fly again what happens when they go back? Interestingly I did hear that when the Concorde operation was stopped several months ago & the offer of spare labour was announced there was a stampede from the management of other areas/fleets to see who could get them first.
There are also some guys on temporary secondment from FSU and ironically because they're so short staffed guys from majors hangars are then asked to help them out on ad-hoc basis during normal shift & on o/t.
'Robbing Peter to pay Paul' springs to mind!
It would appear that most if not all areas are short of labour & the use of o/t is becoming a neccessity which now only just fills over the cracks.
Your spot on but another thing worth a mention is the fact that overtime is no longer laid on exclusively for those critical jobs and/or high man hour jobs that could not be contained within the allotted downtime.
Many of the major inputs in the hangars now have o/t planned into the check ( although when asked its not the official line )so it has almost become the norm & there are some engineers who appear to be living in the hangar.
At present there is also a contingency of guys from the Concorde hangar who have helped to top up the numbers but if and when the Rocket does fly again what happens when they go back? Interestingly I did hear that when the Concorde operation was stopped several months ago & the offer of spare labour was announced there was a stampede from the management of other areas/fleets to see who could get them first.
There are also some guys on temporary secondment from FSU and ironically because they're so short staffed guys from majors hangars are then asked to help them out on ad-hoc basis during normal shift & on o/t.
'Robbing Peter to pay Paul' springs to mind!
It would appear that most if not all areas are short of labour & the use of o/t is becoming a neccessity which now only just fills over the cracks.
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We only have 1 nightstopper and sometimes 4 people on shift, but only 2 approved and it's not unusual for no-one to cover if one of the approved persons is off.
we recently had a conehead and 2 trainees drop an engine and refit it (for access) and the guy who signed for it had had nothing at all to do with the job, except run it before it flew full of people.
Our management seem happy to leave shift cover exposed in this way constantly and its not unusual for engine changes, 2A checks and other unscheduled and scheduled hangar inputs to go ahead with whole shifts having no A+C cover.
But if there are on-going avionic defects, then they get left until there is cover back in or at another base.
A while ago we had a large influx of contractors to cover our shortfall, but now there are only a few. We have taken on a load of engineers from another airline, but they have little experience on type so they are being thrown in at the deep end.
Time and time again the majority of the work is being done by a handful of people, being called in on days off or having to sign work they have had no input in. I for one refuse to do this, and refuse unreasonable requests to come in on my days off, so I have been labelled by management.
I expect my workload to lighten when the new lads get their approvals, but its going to be a slog until then - unless I change to be a conehead (that's avionic if youre unsure).
...and that's all I have to say about that.
we recently had a conehead and 2 trainees drop an engine and refit it (for access) and the guy who signed for it had had nothing at all to do with the job, except run it before it flew full of people.
Our management seem happy to leave shift cover exposed in this way constantly and its not unusual for engine changes, 2A checks and other unscheduled and scheduled hangar inputs to go ahead with whole shifts having no A+C cover.
But if there are on-going avionic defects, then they get left until there is cover back in or at another base.
A while ago we had a large influx of contractors to cover our shortfall, but now there are only a few. We have taken on a load of engineers from another airline, but they have little experience on type so they are being thrown in at the deep end.
Time and time again the majority of the work is being done by a handful of people, being called in on days off or having to sign work they have had no input in. I for one refuse to do this, and refuse unreasonable requests to come in on my days off, so I have been labelled by management.
I expect my workload to lighten when the new lads get their approvals, but its going to be a slog until then - unless I change to be a conehead (that's avionic if youre unsure).
...and that's all I have to say about that.
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Hi Braindead,
Nice to see someone making a stand, not bowing to pressures of management to cover their shortfalls in recruiting or training suitably qualified staff. It would be interesting to find out who you worked for, but I would entirely understand if you did not want to disclose this information. The outfit that I work for have been taking on ex-RAF guys recently. Nothing wrong with that as I am ex-RAF myself, but 757/767 are totally different from Tornado/Harrier that these blokes have been working on for most of their time in, and most are 22 year blokes as well; and in some cases, have difficulty in being molded to the shape that is demanded by preasant management. The currant apprenticeship is being cut to three years, that is one year being cut from the usual scheme. The apprentice that our team have at the moment (I believe that his brother runs easyJet's maintenance) is a great bloke, but he feels that three years is not long enough for him to learn all the skills required for him to go into the big, wide, wonderful world of aircraft maintenance that lives outside. Now he finds himself caught between the devil and the deep blue sea; should he stay and see what happens, or should he leave at the end of his time and go contracting to find out all there is to know about aircraft maintenance, and also 'the real world' outside. But I feel another thread coming on hear so I will let someone else have their say. Over to you..............
Nice to see someone making a stand, not bowing to pressures of management to cover their shortfalls in recruiting or training suitably qualified staff. It would be interesting to find out who you worked for, but I would entirely understand if you did not want to disclose this information. The outfit that I work for have been taking on ex-RAF guys recently. Nothing wrong with that as I am ex-RAF myself, but 757/767 are totally different from Tornado/Harrier that these blokes have been working on for most of their time in, and most are 22 year blokes as well; and in some cases, have difficulty in being molded to the shape that is demanded by preasant management. The currant apprenticeship is being cut to three years, that is one year being cut from the usual scheme. The apprentice that our team have at the moment (I believe that his brother runs easyJet's maintenance) is a great bloke, but he feels that three years is not long enough for him to learn all the skills required for him to go into the big, wide, wonderful world of aircraft maintenance that lives outside. Now he finds himself caught between the devil and the deep blue sea; should he stay and see what happens, or should he leave at the end of his time and go contracting to find out all there is to know about aircraft maintenance, and also 'the real world' outside. But I feel another thread coming on hear so I will let someone else have their say. Over to you..............
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Ali Chrom
Like you guys, we also have Concorde guys in the work area bolstering the numbers.
There are some really good guys here and they are being cr~~~ed on by BoBs Airline bigtime. How can some of those guys meet JAR66 by June 1st without telling lies.
Some of these guys far exceed the expertise that workshop types who have managed by some way or other to hold RMA cover. If Concorde doesn't fly again the pilots won't be the only qualified staff out of pocket and I hope BA rewards it's dedicted engineering staff the same way it rewards it's pilots.
Like you guys, we also have Concorde guys in the work area bolstering the numbers.
There are some really good guys here and they are being cr~~~ed on by BoBs Airline bigtime. How can some of those guys meet JAR66 by June 1st without telling lies.
Some of these guys far exceed the expertise that workshop types who have managed by some way or other to hold RMA cover. If Concorde doesn't fly again the pilots won't be the only qualified staff out of pocket and I hope BA rewards it's dedicted engineering staff the same way it rewards it's pilots.
