degree in ac maintenance engineering
Thought police antagonist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
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Temsford,
How regretable that you have misconstrued my comments. I will say that being definitive does not construe as being intimadatory. Possibly this is one reason, semantics aside, that Engineers are so insular and refuse to accept that progress is a fact of life. Stagnate or die to be honest. Yes, some do leave the profession ( happy now ? ) but the vast majority remain as transference to other sectors is difficult without a recognised qualification eg HNC / Degree etc. Contrast this with DipSW for example, again a vocational qualification, but one which offers the holder considerably more scope to diversify should they so wish. I am aware the CAA state the Licence is comparable to an HNC / D but the fact remains that many employers in other sectors will simply say " Licence--so what ? " As for Engineers not wishing to fly with an Aircraft, well some do under duress, others because it's a perk going down route, some, like myself, who actively enjoy flying in any event--not to mention gaining a better understanding the pressures Crews operate under and fostering better working relationships--again another "nasty" area for those who insist on the "us and them" philosophy and those who flatly refuse to fly unless as a pax because of the reasons I stated. Aircraft Maintenance / Engineering is a closed world to the public as a whole. Why ? Why are Engineers so reluctant to break with so called traditional values and thus develop further in both a personal and professional capacity. How many times have I heard the lament that "we get treated like dirt" etc---and what do the majority do about this state of affairs? Absolutely nothing--just carry on as before and moan to high heaven. Heaven forbid that any outside influences may actually benefit their cause let alone those of us who have tried to change matters---for the good of all please note, not personal satisfaction. And then people get upset when the term Luddite is used.
How regretable that you have misconstrued my comments. I will say that being definitive does not construe as being intimadatory. Possibly this is one reason, semantics aside, that Engineers are so insular and refuse to accept that progress is a fact of life. Stagnate or die to be honest. Yes, some do leave the profession ( happy now ? ) but the vast majority remain as transference to other sectors is difficult without a recognised qualification eg HNC / Degree etc. Contrast this with DipSW for example, again a vocational qualification, but one which offers the holder considerably more scope to diversify should they so wish. I am aware the CAA state the Licence is comparable to an HNC / D but the fact remains that many employers in other sectors will simply say " Licence--so what ? " As for Engineers not wishing to fly with an Aircraft, well some do under duress, others because it's a perk going down route, some, like myself, who actively enjoy flying in any event--not to mention gaining a better understanding the pressures Crews operate under and fostering better working relationships--again another "nasty" area for those who insist on the "us and them" philosophy and those who flatly refuse to fly unless as a pax because of the reasons I stated. Aircraft Maintenance / Engineering is a closed world to the public as a whole. Why ? Why are Engineers so reluctant to break with so called traditional values and thus develop further in both a personal and professional capacity. How many times have I heard the lament that "we get treated like dirt" etc---and what do the majority do about this state of affairs? Absolutely nothing--just carry on as before and moan to high heaven. Heaven forbid that any outside influences may actually benefit their cause let alone those of us who have tried to change matters---for the good of all please note, not personal satisfaction. And then people get upset when the term Luddite is used.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Krystal
I fully understand what you are attempting to say, perhaps you should listen a bit more to what others are saying.
Luddite by definition is for those who are resisitant to change. The industry is changing and there are many people in key areas who have the foresight and imagination to ensure that it is changing to break down what were seen as previously insurmountable barriers and make our industry stronger I am not sure what area you are working in now, but my role is at the 'coal face' of heavy aircraft maintenance. To classify the majority in aircraft maintenance as luddites is doing them a dis-service.
There are trips down route which involve going to sunnier climes I agree, but there are also AOG rescues down route often to less exotic locations which, in the 30 years that I have been working on aircraft we have never failed to get staff to support a requirement for them to fly down route to effect a repair. The work often involves flying back on the aircraft that they have repaired. The have therefore 'fixed them' and 'flown back' on them.
The relationship between Ground Engineers and Aircrew is one of the most unique examples of teamwork and trust that exists anywhere. The Aircrew and the Engineers have a unique bond when it comes to the job in hand. Over the years I have attended the retirement parties of many pilots. In virtually every case they have thanked us for our efforts. A number of Aircrew have also said that the special realtionship is very important to them. Do not underestimate this relationship and do not assume that there is an 'us' and 'them' atttiude with all Ground Engineers and Aircrew. This only happens when we discuss pay scales and allowances and conditions, but that is a different story.
There are more who welcome change than perhaps is being perceived. If my previous mails on this subject are noted it indicates that I have identified that change is required, but a change in attitude must come from all areas of the Aircraft Engineering Profession, whatever their background.
What is not needed is a perceived attitude of superiority from those who have a degree to the Ground Engineers that they are 'under achievers' and for Ground Engineers to intimate that anyone with a degree is not suited to a Maintenance environment. Both are simply not true.
This is a forum and as such a right to express one's opinion should be encouraged, but any input should be objective and not subjective.
Regards
Tempsford
I fully understand what you are attempting to say, perhaps you should listen a bit more to what others are saying.
Luddite by definition is for those who are resisitant to change. The industry is changing and there are many people in key areas who have the foresight and imagination to ensure that it is changing to break down what were seen as previously insurmountable barriers and make our industry stronger I am not sure what area you are working in now, but my role is at the 'coal face' of heavy aircraft maintenance. To classify the majority in aircraft maintenance as luddites is doing them a dis-service.
There are trips down route which involve going to sunnier climes I agree, but there are also AOG rescues down route often to less exotic locations which, in the 30 years that I have been working on aircraft we have never failed to get staff to support a requirement for them to fly down route to effect a repair. The work often involves flying back on the aircraft that they have repaired. The have therefore 'fixed them' and 'flown back' on them.
The relationship between Ground Engineers and Aircrew is one of the most unique examples of teamwork and trust that exists anywhere. The Aircrew and the Engineers have a unique bond when it comes to the job in hand. Over the years I have attended the retirement parties of many pilots. In virtually every case they have thanked us for our efforts. A number of Aircrew have also said that the special realtionship is very important to them. Do not underestimate this relationship and do not assume that there is an 'us' and 'them' atttiude with all Ground Engineers and Aircrew. This only happens when we discuss pay scales and allowances and conditions, but that is a different story.
There are more who welcome change than perhaps is being perceived. If my previous mails on this subject are noted it indicates that I have identified that change is required, but a change in attitude must come from all areas of the Aircraft Engineering Profession, whatever their background.
What is not needed is a perceived attitude of superiority from those who have a degree to the Ground Engineers that they are 'under achievers' and for Ground Engineers to intimate that anyone with a degree is not suited to a Maintenance environment. Both are simply not true.
This is a forum and as such a right to express one's opinion should be encouraged, but any input should be objective and not subjective.
Regards
Tempsford
Join Date: Mar 2001
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K'n chips,
Is there a problem ?, you seem 'very' embittered . I must disagree Licence then degree oldboy, inexperienced graduate engineers are underpaid. Engineers in which ever industry are notoriously undervalued.
I would suggest B1 or B2 ,pick up a few types & a little experience then attend Kingston Uni' part time (2 yrs) for their BEng hons in aircraft engineering. Not only will you have obtained K n C's much vaunted qualification but you will be' industry' experienced.
Money is an issue & it may be difficult to find a graduate post that pays as well as most licenced positions.
After momentarily raising my ape like head from the SUN , i was able to glean from my fellow licenced knuckle draggers ,by means of hand gesture & guttural grunts (those who were not engaged in smashing mechanical devices as:"they be the works of satan") that they to agreed you had managed to both insult & condescend in equal measure, BRAVO !.
I was going to write a longer reposte but due in no small part to the fact that i lack higher cognitive function, i shall instead aggressively beat my chest then take a nap
.
Is there a problem ?, you seem 'very' embittered . I must disagree Licence then degree oldboy, inexperienced graduate engineers are underpaid. Engineers in which ever industry are notoriously undervalued.
I would suggest B1 or B2 ,pick up a few types & a little experience then attend Kingston Uni' part time (2 yrs) for their BEng hons in aircraft engineering. Not only will you have obtained K n C's much vaunted qualification but you will be' industry' experienced.
Money is an issue & it may be difficult to find a graduate post that pays as well as most licenced positions.
After momentarily raising my ape like head from the SUN , i was able to glean from my fellow licenced knuckle draggers ,by means of hand gesture & guttural grunts (those who were not engaged in smashing mechanical devices as:"they be the works of satan") that they to agreed you had managed to both insult & condescend in equal measure, BRAVO !.
I was going to write a longer reposte but due in no small part to the fact that i lack higher cognitive function, i shall instead aggressively beat my chest then take a nap
.
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Short Termism
I started off with a traditional apprenticeship straight from school at age 16 did some time in the military then advanced through work experience, night school and City and Guilds to secure a type rated UKCAA Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Licence. I was also proud to be a member of Britain's last Craft Union (the ETU). While certifying B707s for Big Airways I was a signatory to the Certificate of Maintenance and although I could sign off a complete check within the avionic categories and despite the fancy gold letters on the cover of my licence, my job title was 'Certifying Lead Tradesman' Given my background, Tradesmanship is a word that I do not take lightly.
But the world has moved on. I'm sure everyone is comfortable and happy with their existing salary and conditions but for those of you who only read the first three pages of The Sun "Wor Tony" (as he's known in Sedgefield) and his cronies are changing the education system and administrative law within the EU is also coming into play. Traditional vocational training schemes have all but disappeared and in future more young people will enter the job market from further and higher education; a shift that will change whole career structures in all industries.
For those who are about to start their careers now, old time career advice is inappropriate for they will face a different future. 'ragspanner' is correct to point out that inexperienced graduate engineers are underpaid, but his suggestion of getting experience first then going for a degree may be misguided. By the time our new starter has acquired his licences and picked up some type approvals and experience he is also likely to have picked up a few years, a wife and a family. Money is then indeed an issue! Then comes the not so minor issue of getting time off to study; in future, employers will be recruiting existing graduates from the expanded output of further education - will they then be as amenable to giving existing workers time off for study as they are today (not)?
These are the things I considered in giving my advice and I still stand by it. Young people who are just about to leave school now will have a brighter future in the long term if they graduate first then settle down to working. The old ways will no longer suffice and those who opt for short term gain will find themselves competing with better educated but equally qualified people later in their careers. Short termism is always a mistake.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
But the world has moved on. I'm sure everyone is comfortable and happy with their existing salary and conditions but for those of you who only read the first three pages of The Sun "Wor Tony" (as he's known in Sedgefield) and his cronies are changing the education system and administrative law within the EU is also coming into play. Traditional vocational training schemes have all but disappeared and in future more young people will enter the job market from further and higher education; a shift that will change whole career structures in all industries.
For those who are about to start their careers now, old time career advice is inappropriate for they will face a different future. 'ragspanner' is correct to point out that inexperienced graduate engineers are underpaid, but his suggestion of getting experience first then going for a degree may be misguided. By the time our new starter has acquired his licences and picked up some type approvals and experience he is also likely to have picked up a few years, a wife and a family. Money is then indeed an issue! Then comes the not so minor issue of getting time off to study; in future, employers will be recruiting existing graduates from the expanded output of further education - will they then be as amenable to giving existing workers time off for study as they are today (not)?
These are the things I considered in giving my advice and I still stand by it. Young people who are just about to leave school now will have a brighter future in the long term if they graduate first then settle down to working. The old ways will no longer suffice and those who opt for short term gain will find themselves competing with better educated but equally qualified people later in their careers. Short termism is always a mistake.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
