National Jet admits admits unsafe planes due to oil fumes
 

NJS sacked the senior base flight attendant in Perth 3 weeks ago. The FA had complained about the overwhelming work load of running the base - a job that is now done by 3 FAs!!! After appeals for assistance to all her superiors she wrote to the MD. The MD immediatley terminated her for a variety of changing excuses.

The FAs letter and the NJS letter of termination to the FA have leaked out and are circulating. It seems people in Adelaide are as appalled at the stupidity as the real workers.

The NJS letter to the FA states:

“we cannot confidently and absolutely guarantee that no cabin air contamination will occur while you are on board a 146 aircraft. We are not prepared to risk compromising your health. Accordingly the 146 flying option is no longer available to you. . .As a result, you are hereby notified that your employment is terminated due to redundancy of your position.”

No more "alleged fumes" and "alleged contamination". It is now out in the open.

*Take care *******, we are all on your side*

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: Woomera ]</p>

Where is the admission of "unsafe"?

HEALTH RISK = UNSAFE you goose! standby for the lawsuits. what an idiot admitting to polluting the cabin and being a health risk?? ******* baby, go the lot you should get quite a tidy sum by the time unfair dismissal,working in a polluted, health risk environment(workcover will have a feild day with that one!)and the lawers will add a few more .......!

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: BAE146 ]

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: Woomera ]</p>

The number of FA's who have been flying for 5+ years and are off on Workers Comp is unbelieveable. All have been severely affected by fumes from those damn aircraft. I would LOVE to get my hands on a copy of that letter so when it happens to me I have something where the company will admit their liability! Have many pilots been affected by fumes? If not why? Is there different air circulating in the FD than what is being distributed in the cabin?. . . .We hope to see you back soon ******* You go girl!!!!

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: Woomera ]</p>

WARNING, WARNING! Do not post names, or you risk having the story removed.. .Woomera

The most shocking aspect of this whole saga with the 146 in general and NJS in particular is that they have failed to initiate a fleet replacement of any sort in spite of a growing number of cases of illness attributed to crewing on the thing. Instead God knows how much money has been spent trying to fix a problem that cannot be fixed and letting the company spin doctores run rampant with explanations as to why all is well, always has been and always will be. Who ever gives those guys legal advice needs to be taken out the back. Though I could probably never prove this medically I have noticed a remarkable degradation in my concentration span when reading or studying. Allowing for a small percentage change due to the aging process I attribute much of this to six years of 146 flying.

It will be interesting to see the defence on this one. How can you fire someone ( make redundant) because you cannot ensure a safe work environment for them to work in? At least when it comes to being stupid these guys are consistent at every turn. They'll spend millions defending themselves and eventually settle out of court. Remember the flap/gear case in CNS?

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: sprucegoose ]</p>

Spruce how's that little gear problem in the 737 you had ! Memory span eh, NJS we here did the right thing by you, a rapid promotion 146 command. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: Captain Bligh ]</p>

One way to solve this very quickly,go to the manufacturer and ask.I'd assume BAE have hundred's of these aircraft over the world.If there was a problem,they would be aware of it.. .A copy of the complaints that generated this responce from management may put more light on the subject.But I don't think that will be forthcoming.. .On the news tonight that DVT is not caused by sitting in cattle.How long has that been in the news?

Smelled it a few times myself actually....perhaps by the time it got to the flightdeck it had been mostly filtered by the lungs of the FAs and pax!

Sprucey.......memory lapses?......YOU! :)

Chuck.

Well Captain Bligh, aren't you just a just a model d#@khead. I never had any gear problem on a 737 or any other aircraft for that matter. Perhaps if you had half a brain you would have your facts correct before shooting off you keyboard/mouth. I did have a flap incident if that what YOUR failing memory span is refering to. My reference to the incident in CNS was NOT in any way aimed at the pilots involved but at the debarcle of a way it was handled by the company. You are quite correct in that I got a quick command on the 146. And just what that has to do with the poor way many matters have been managed at NJS is lost on me. Also how that is the "right" thing by me in getting a quick command is unclear. Sure, I was lucky. Right place, right time, right experience. I certaintly hadn't done anything out of the ordinary to gain that command. Many other pilots did in fact have the "right" thing done by them in so far as they came straight from the Dash8 with little jet experience and went pretty much straight into a command. There really isn't anything significant about that either in the end. If you want to discuss my 737 incident Bligh then by all means e-mail and we can set your distorted view straight.

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: sprucegoose ]</p>

two days after sacking the FA, NJS put her FO husband on permanent sick leave without consulting him. Seems he wrote a contamination report on an aircraft last October!. .According to the FO he is not sick and has never taken a sick day due to contamination. Rumour has it that the company took out over half of the pilots report in the official version to cover their proverbial botties.

This is turning into a very nasty little story.

Anyone know how many NJS pilots have lost their licenses or been on permanent non-flying duties due to fumes? I know of 4.

hope NJS has a good legal team......they're going to need it!

Give em a break guys.

Whether there is or is not "contamination" is not the argument in this case nor do I have a view one way or the other on it.. .That will be for the experts to decide.

But you have to see the companies side as well.. .They have a duty of care to their staff. . .If certain members of their staff raise concerns about their personal health in relation to a given workplace situation and are adamant that continued operation therein will continue to prejudice their health, then if they have no other suitable alternative work available for them, their position becomes redundant or they must be put on sick leave whilst it is investigated.

They would be negligent in the extreme if they ignored an employees claim that they were being made to work in conditions deleterious to their health.

If the company determines that the conditions are acceptable then they have no other alternative but to remove the employee from the place that the employee alleges is causing the problem. . .Impute whatever other motives you might, but that is the bones of it.

On the other side of the coin, the company has a duty at large to satisfy itself in all and any reasonable ways that the workplace is safe. Until that becomes otherwise the above must apply.

As a bit of context, my youngest child (19) has severe eczema and is in the top 5% of that population, sufficiently bad that occasionally he has to take the same anti rejection drugs used in transplant surgery. He is improving and will, we hope sooner than later, be able to live a relatively normal life. But he does have to be careful of his environment and there are occupations that will not be available to him whether he likes it or not. . .So what, well everybody in the world has different reactions to different environments, it's called life. . .If he starts a job and finds after time that that environment is not good for him, why should the employer carry the can.. .An extreme example perhaps, valid nonetheless.

An employer recognising that circumstance and moving to protect the worker and itself, does not, ipso facto, admit that the workplace is unsafe for everybody else.

You have a valid point Gaunty and no doubt if these current allegations against NJS are true your observations may well be tested in court. The problem will not lie so much in the area you have outlined but more likely whether a due and just process was adopted by the company in carrying out its actions. Unfortunately there has been a culture of "side step and deny" in such matters in the past. Once they start painting the dance floor the record will show that they often end up in the corner somehwere. It's not a particularly transparent management team.

Totally agree with gaunty's comments and to some extent those made by goose.However, consider this.

Suppose the FO in question is unsatisfied with his lot in life? Suppose he constantly goes out of his way to disrepute the company? Suppose his demanding attitude and his scaming have not gone unoticed? Suppose his persistant carping and whinging has out worn its welcome? Suppose NJS is currently over stocked with pilots!

Suppose his unrelenting negativity has rubbed of on his otherwise well mannered subservant wife? Perhaps she is being coheresed in a manner in which she is unaccustomed? Perhaps NJS is sick to death of trouble makers who can't be pleased and won't do their job!!

Maybe they would be HAPPIER working somewhere else and NJS has done them a favour.

Do you think Virgin will take them Goose?

Not if we knew that to be true. I am in no position to comment on those aspects of 'what if'that you mentioned. I can see your point however but in approaching these matters in the past there has been a tendancy for the powers that be to leave themselves prone. I don't have the answer but sometimes at NJS there would appear to have been a better way to achieve that task, a less costly way legally. I guess thats my point, how much are they prepared to spend to defend such a case in court? It has been acknowledged that in the past such cases were far to costly.

Gaunty: Will you please explain to my feeble mind how a position allegedly causing harm becomes redundant? If the aircraft then left with one pilot on board, I might be willing to accept your premise, but the POSITION is still there, but not the pilot. How can it then be redundant? The 146 has been a bone of contention for many years, always for the same reason, and nothing, it seems, can be done to resolve the problem.. .Surely, in executing their "Duty of Care", a company would have to remove the possibility of contamination, by whatever means. The fact that a crew member, tech or cabin, has an adverse reaction to a problem is indicative of the problem as well as the reaction, and both must be addressed for satisfactory resolution. Nothing has been, nor can be, done to improve the situation by management or manufacturer, so what would happen to the airline if ALL crew mwmbers refused to crew the type? I understand your analogy of your son, poor fella, and it is difficult to refute your argument there, but I still feel that NJS is taking the easy way out.

TJ: I know of one female Captain who lost her license some years ago, hasn't flown since.

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Night Owl,. .Also the same female Capt made a huge amount of money from settlements.

[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: Captain Bligh ]</p>

Hey Outside Loop I hope what you are saying is not slander because it sounds like it.. .You are saying that the 146 does not have a problem when it is widley known to have one .. .A lot of people work for companies and have problems with them. This does not mean that they want to destroy them but they are also entitled to to anything they can claim.

Jesus Bligh, open your window and let some air into the room will you? What a crock of crap that last statement was. Does your contribution to NJS amount to the same senseless dribble that you have posted here in this thread? It was hardly a huge sum money considering the nature of her illness. The settlement was out of court and thus I would imagine the settlement was to the companies liking, that being the lesser of two evils in their eyes. The relevance of that case is in no way related to the demise of her organisation. What a load of rot. You must be a mangement screw ball.

Slander? No I was just creating a hypothetical.

My point was to raise the question, should a company be forced to continue to employ unwanted trouble makers? And in todays industrial relations environment,how are they supposed to deal with them?

Was not suggesting that the 146 does not have a fume problem, although I can say that the problem has been addressed and the incidence has been greatly reduced.

Gaunty's comment was valid. Some people can't even smell it let alone be effected by it. Others I suggest may smell it, be uneffected, but be inclined to use it to their advantage.Then of course there are those that do have a reaction.

What is a company supposed to do with these people? Do they continue to employ people who cannot carry out their duties and who will most likely file a law suit against them? Or,shut shop maybe?

Capt. Bligh,

I don't know what the payout was but am confident I know of whom you speak.

I am however supremely confident that the payout was no where near lost earnings. On top of that you have potential future earnings.

How do you compensate for a lost career and life style, let alone quality of life?

Give me my health and ability to work at what I want to do, any day!!

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: Capt Claret ]</p>

Yes Bligh, the said Female Captain who became too sick too work had to fight for recompence because her loss of licence insurance didn't adequately cover her lost earnings. Part of her 'settlement' with Ansett was rumoured to be that she never, ever speak on the issue. This woman is said to be so sick that she will never hold a licence again. Your post above reads like you are blaming the victim. Surely an worker whose health has been adversely affected by their employment is entitled to adequate compensation.

Clearly a number of posters on this forum have no understanding of workers' entitlements law/workcover obligations or are maliciously motivated. From my dim legal past I can think of at least two other fertile grounds for complaint.. .Relevent parties at NJS would be well advised to 'winnie' their pants at this point. Engage the best, you'll need them.

I have a vision, and it's all green$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

ps. Is the $100 still green?

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]</p>

ps. Gaunty, you would be described as the 'rainmaker employer', should you ever get the chance.. .That is, of course, recognising the constraints of the limitations on awards in such cases.

Ms Jones,

Just curious, but how does

"we cannot confidently and absolutely guarantee that no cabin air contamination will occur while you are on board a 146 aircraft"

translate into an admission that aparticular aircraft is unsafe?

I could not "confidently and absolutely guarantee that no cabin air contamination will occur" on any aircraft (or any other vehicle for that matter) and I seriously doubt that any sensible person could. I do not know the circumstances involved here, but there seems to be a context that suggests hypersensitivity to particular events. If so, perhaps the consequences of knowingly placing an hypersensitive employee in that environment outweigh the consequences of terminating their services.

If my memory serves me correctly, the DC-9 had a significant history of cabin air contamination. If the B717 shares the same air conditioning/pressurisation design, would you expect QANTAS to absolutely guarantee that there would never ever be a cabin air quality event on a B717?

What about the Civil Aviation Regulations need to report defects and airworthiness requirements for air- clean of contamination?. Why shoot the messenger! The problem appears to have been around for years along with plenty of info on the extent of it & the apparent not insignificant number of those effected to various degrees & long history of procrastination & inability to solve the problem. All employees are entitled to a work environment that is safe & clear of contaminants.. . How can you admit contamination & then blame the employees!!

What has CASA/ATSB done & what will they do??

[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: woaaa ]</p>

Do what Goose did leave NJS, then lob adverse comment at his old wage packet. Nice one Spruce.

Sprucegoose & Sly: I'm with both of you. The poor woman hasn't worked since, 'cos she can't, and her settlement was NOWHERE near what she lost in come, legal fees and loss of future earnings.. .So much for sympathy for your colleagues, Bligh, you are a bl***y disgrace to your profession.

Regards,

TheNightOwl. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

I lobbed adverse comment while I was there too Bligh. E-mail me if have the balls.

Woaaa,

NJS have been conducting an extensive examination of the air contamination problem for quite some time. As a major operator of this type of A/C it is obviously in their best interest to do so.

Currently all A/C which under go heavy maintanance have their engine seals replaced, whether they are faulty or not.A contamination schedule is placed in all A/C, the objective being to isolate the contamination source. Crews are REQUIRED to fill out this schedule should air contamination be detected. Once the source has been isolated the A/C is grounded untill the offending seal is replaced. This procedure has greatly reduced the incidence of air contamination and it is now a rare event.

What else can be done? Only three things spring to mind.. .1.RE-ENGINE THE FLEET.As yet the manufacturer of the 146 has not come up with a replacement engine.This would require extensive re-engineering of the existing A/C. The 146 is an ageing, out of production type so this is unlikely to happen.. .2. REPLACE THE ENTIRE FLEET.Firstly an A/C must be found which complies with the requirements of the client.NJS have done major research in this area. Unfortunately there are very few A/C in production which match the 146 in terms of seating capacity, weight, range and efficiency. The 717 immediately comes to mind but has been deemed unsuitable, I think due to it's high operating weight and lack of range. Other A/C have been examined. These include the RJX,probably the most suitable, however production has ceased due to the events of Sept 11th.And a Dornier and an Embraea prototype. Either of which MAY be compatible with the operation although untill they are up and running and take to the air, details will not be known. . .So in the short term, even if they could convince Qantas of the urgent need of fleet replacement,and come up with the necessary funding for training etc, they are stuck with the 146.. .3.SHUT SHOP.Obviously an undesirable choice.

It would appear to me that those people unfortunate enough to suffer from chemical intolerance, should not pursue a career in aviation.You will not find them within the mechanical or engineering fraternity because they cannot tolerate the job. Similarly people whom are squimish and faint at the sight of blood, do not become surgeons.The aviation industry has been predudiced against those with mild colour vision deficiencies since flying began. I could go on.

As for a 100% garrantee of an air pollutant free environment. It simply can't be done. Anywhere. Even hostpitals have outbreaks of Legionairs disease and Golden Staff. There is nowhere you can go or nothing you can do, that will give you absolute protection from the real world.

OL: Your argument about people with intolerances not pursuing a career in aircraft is peurile and demeans yourself more than your target.. .1. Legionaires Disease has a direct cause, and is easily corrected, indeed any so contaminated water-towers in this state are no longer tolerated and the owner may be prosecuted.. .2. Golden Staph. is, I believe, almost impossible to eradicate, but MAY be controlled by the administering of antibiotics.. .3. The subject Captain had not long completed her Command Endorsement, until which time her career had progressed without incident. The occurrence of the air contamination was what created her problem, on-going to this day, what has annoyed all who know her is the treatment meted out by her employer AND insurance companies. I do not profess to know all the details of her case, nor the settlement, but enough to have sympathy for a career in ruins through no fault of hers. People in similar circumstances are deserving of consideration and help, NOT being treated in the manner she was. I'm tempted to rant and rave about the disgraceful "running for cover" attitude displayed towards her but, on reflection, I don't believe it would change the attitudes of big business one iota.

Regards,

TheNightOwl. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

It is all very well suggesting that crew who are affected don’t follow a career in aviation. What do you propose for the paying passengers who are like wise adversely affected.. .I would like to see you recommend to a director of a major company that he find another career path, as the method of transport his company uses is causing him to be put at risk

Best thing to do is push them in a heap with Ansett WA’s clapped out specimens and drop a match in the lot. It may be cheaper than the impending law suits.

CTS

As I understand it, Woodside won't allow their personnel to fly on the 146 because of the doubts about its fume problem.

In three years of operating the machine and a further three years paxing, I have yet to experience a fumes occurrence.

I think that unfortunately some of us, humans that is, have a lower tolerance for various petrochemicals and are affected differently.

I have heard numerous engineers and pilots make comments to the effect that various different aircraft suffer with similar, or worse, fumes problems.

Ansett: Australian Senate Inquiry 2 Nov, 1999. ." the source of the odours has been identified as predominantly Mobil jet oil 2 leaking past oil seals in the engines and/or auxiliary power unit into the air conditioning system..."

Australian Senate report: . ." The committee received evidence that Ansett has.... recorded reported fume occurrences of 1 per 131 flights."

Overall the 146 still does and will continue to give a good service and return for NJS and QF. It's the figure at the bottom that counts 'Profit'. Goose you where invited to join management in Adelaide but didn't have the balls to turn up. So it as a flap snafu eh, you didn't take out those runway lights at Cairns ? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Yes Bligh....your incessant divergance to matters irrelevant but non the less associated with me clearly divulges your interest in slandering me as sport. Though you know me you quite obviously don't KNOW me at all and it shows in the depth of the stupidity of your comments. Do you really think I had no balls in turning down the offer to move to ADL? Do you know anything at all? Probably not. Let me ask you this much. Suppose you were offered the opportunity to trek up Mt. Everest or take a rocket ship to Mars, be the first human to go there. If you get there you get all the glory, and who doesn't occasionally want their fifteen minutes of fame? The risk is this, either the trek will take place in the period of maximum avalanche probability or the rocket has enough fuel to get to Mars and back but only if there is not a single error in planning and tracking. The risk in either case is you die and lose everything you currently have which in your case could be a wife and kids and friends. The prize is fifteen minutes of glory. Is it an acceptable risk? The driving force in my life used to be aviation, the career chase so many of us are a slave to. These days aviation is to me a great way to earn a living but it isn't what drives me on from day to day. I get that from the need to do something that scares the living hell out me at least twice a week and I get that through my chosen leisure activity, on a mountain bike. But for there to be any value in that experience I have to be able to survive the event. Thats what I call acceptable risk. If I do my part right I will succeed and be envigorated for another day. I digress however.

Instead imagine this. The CEO of your company invites you down to the office for tea and bikkies. The offer is a management position for which you have no prior experience, no substantial building block of experience or any immediate interest. The terms of the "offer", a term I use loosely because in the corporate world there are very seldom offer's but always expectations, don't contain a job description, don't contain a salary figure or at best one that changed every time the matter was raised on the phone, never contained a contract in writting to examine but which was promised day after day to be formalised and sent in the overnight mail. It never came. The offer involved giving up flying for the most part and I love my flying. The 40 or so hours a month that a management pilot was supposed to get equated to about 40 hours every six months when I did my own asking around. This offer also required my wife to give up her job which she loved and move from a new house we had just started to build to live in a city we didn't have any desire to live in. All this and about three weeks to pack up and make the move. Yeah, right. The "offer" was poorly planned, poorly executed and in the end a terrible waste of goodwill. I could clearly see that the result of the move would have been to make me a highly paid paper pushing office boy. Hey, you gotta start somewhere I know but they weren't being transparent enough in that respect and we all knew that. I took advice from several people in the management circles who all said I would be good in the job but did I really know what I was getting myself into. Well yes I believe I did after a week or so of reflection. Was it an acceptable risk to stop flying, to get myself cornered in a position with no job description or contract in writting. To make the decision for my wife that she WOULD give up her job and she WOULD move to ADL whether she wanted to or not? What would the prize be if it all paid off? A good bloke(?)making inroads into the quagmire of beaurocratic military management? The loss could have been my wife, my happy sanity, and my friends . I didn't see this as an acceptable risk. In hindsight I think it took balls to say no. Certaintly looking at the failures of those that flocked down there afterwards in search of the "title" and the power one can see the need to plan and choose your managers wisely. I never have believed burning a person out or assuming up front that someone will have a "use by" date" after a very short time is good management of your human resourses. I didn't think I would have fit in too well and thus I chose not to go. I made the right decision. We remained good loyal employee's after that as well in spite of the abuse my wife received for not taking the "offer". Thats not the only "golden" opportunity I have passed up in life either Bligh. I put the well being of family and lifestyle ahead of my own aspirations again a few years later. It is really quite an uplifting experience to follow the road less travelled in this business and put others interests ahead of your own. When it got so that I no longer felt happy in the NJS camp Bligh, I voted with my feet. At least I had the choice, perhaps you never will pardna.

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: sprucegoose ]</p>

So what’s s really going on? It seems as though a lot of people aren’t saying much .. .??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????

CLARET,. .I would never accuse you of being human!!!!

SPRUCY,. .Chill,you dont have to fly with Claret anymore!!!!! <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

yowie,

It's good to see that the PPRuNe intelligencia have lost none of their charm or wit.

p.s. Enjoy your holiday.