What is a Captain worth
 

The issue of pilots wages in Australia will be more relevent than ever before. How can one Airline pay half as much as another for the same, if not more work?. .. .Will Qantas share holders be happy when they find there shares decreasing and Virgins Blue (After they Float)Sky rocketing on the back of an efficient pay structure?. .. .Sell Sell Sell. .. .Will we see annother huge pay dispute soon?. .. .Is $120000 for a 737 Captain enough.. .. .And will this be the top of the tree in a few years Time?. . . . <small>[ 04 March 2002, 08:51: Message edited by: PeterWally ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Is $120000 for a 737 Captain enough.. .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">That's easy Peter. Yes (if you work for DJ), No (if you work for QF).

Yep Peter,. .. .I suspect we will see another pay dispute. VB pilots demanding a real wage for the work they do? . .. .We put up with very average wages and conditions in GA etc, while we strive for proper conditions in the airlines. Considering the time we spend away from home, volatile & inconsistent rostering, missing many important family events, strained relationships, etc etc etc, we are not overpayed per international standards.. .. .If VB does not pay pilots a comparable wage, they will be the ones suffering in the long term as their pilots try to maximize their poor income. I would predict pilot attrition as those who gain real jobs overseas etc will also blow out training costs. I know several very good pilots who would much rather be a Second Officer with Qantas than a VB 737 captain on the same money.. .. .See also 500 hr VB Captain post. . .. .They are all smoke and mirrors at this stage.. .. .I won't be selling any QF shares.. .. .If you don't do the job then I doubt you will understand. Like the VB little plane ad - Keep crying but I'm not listening.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 04 March 2002, 09:57: Message edited by: Mud Skipper ]</small>

Whats a captain worth?....I reckon if you looked real hard you could get em for about a buck twenty a kilo. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

It depends on the individual. For me the answer would be yes, in fact the $69000 an FO recieves would be fine.. .. .I know 2 pilots who have joined VB from a QF regional and they are very happy with the move.. .If you look at where many of VB's FO's have come from you can see why they would be happy. Most have come from regionals, some were captains others FO's. The captains from the regionals who moved onto VB as FO's would be on similar pay, but they may get alot more job satisfaction and they know in 12 months they could be on a Captain on better money. For the FO's most would see a large increase in wages and once again they may find more job satisfaction and better carreer progresion. . .. .Perhaps many of those who wish to fly for VB don't have the education that QF require, maybe they started flying latter in life, maybe they have a family (like myself)and don't want to do long haul and spend a week(s) away from their family.. . . .Remember there is more to life than money.

There certainly is F111, otherwise, us at the lower end of the food chain with little ambition to move up it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> wouldnt be in aviation.

Wizard:. .. .I reckon if you looked real hard you could get em for about a buck twenty a kilo.. .. .I presume you are referring to those who held an airline command pre 1989?. .. .If so, your offer is far too high! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .I'd go about a Dime a Dozen - overseas! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I never fail to be amazed at the animosity shown on D&G between professional pilots. . .You are still in the same industry after 12 years, god, thank your lucky stars. . .I have been through two industry lifecycles that have seen my work commence, develop to maturity and die through competition and the maturity of the technology. the longest lasted 8 years.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> . .$69,000 is a good comfortable liveable wage. $120,000 even more so. just be happy that you have an area of industry that can provide them.. .. .treat your fellow aviators kindly and you'll have some one next to you interesting to talk to in the dole queue. y' never know it might be me :-)

Whats a captain worth?. .. .Between four & five times the quoted Vb figures (both Capt & Fo's) for those with broader horizons. Go back a few months & look at Kaptin M's post, "Whats the Aussie lifestyle worth".

Without getting into the arguement about VB wages too much - just remember that the AVERAGE wage in Australia is approx $37000 per annum.. .. .That is about HALF what a VB F/O makes.. .. .This doesn't mean that the VB pilots make too much or not enough for that matter - but remember that the average worker that hates his/her job earns a fraction of what we "professional' aviators earn each month.. .. .we need to put it all into a bit of perspective when talking about slave wages etc.. .. .However i would have thought that the VB pilots are in a significantly imrpoved negotiating position than they were last month....

23 years ago when I was a young 17 year old, I made a decision after getting my PPL (UK) that I would not pursue my dreams of becoming a commercial pilot. This decision was based on earning capacity. Looking at the figures you are quoting I’d say that I made the right choice! To earn $70k and to be away from the family for long periods must put a huge strain on any relationship and how would you buy new toys!. .. .NAP. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Not trying to get drawn into debate, however, I would not think drawing association to the "Average Australia wage" pertinent to any salary comparison in this case!. .If you are going to compare flight crew salary, compare it to those in the same positions abroad.. .. ."but remember that the average worker that hates his/her job earns a fraction of what we "professional' aviators earn each month.". .. .And that is their choice!!! It doesn't take much to become a process worker nor a council worker. How long did it take you to get you where you are today? Where did you have to relocate to and prostitute yourself for a pittance? How much study and training have you done and still doing???. .. .Please don't get me wrong, as far as professions go aviation is hardly rocket science nor brain surgery, its not that difficult! However I do believe that the majority of flight crews in Australia are underpaid, when you consider what a professional pilot is renumerated with abroad.

Why would anyone spend 30K to 40K on training while studying ya balls off. Then relocating themselves to all parts of Australia to be abused by some small Time opperator (After you finnally get a job by drinking enough beer at rorkes with the "boys" which sends you further into dept)that will make you live in conditions that are not fit for any other proffession except budding Pilots. . .In this employment that you finnally score( refer to all spreads on air Ngukkur)you are treated like s@#t by your employer and the wah wahs. Most of the time during this employment you happpy that your logg book is filling, but the only reason that you stick it out and put up with the so called working conditions is the fact as soon as you complain you are sacked and replaced with one of the hundreds of pilots desperate for thier own logg book to be filled.. .. .O.k we are all happy to do this so we can climb the tree to the top. Fly the jets etc. . .. .But surely for more than twice the average wage.. .. .It Takes anywhere between 3 to 9 years to finnally make it. Spend that time at uni and I'll bet you get paid more than Twice the average wage.. .But then again look how many of us will do any thing to get a head at the bottom of the tree, why should it be any different at the top. . .. .I.E anyone who has paid for a job with VB.. .. .I know I would because If I don't about 180 or so will.

You lot are all over paid. Proven time and time again that you will accept a pay cut and still crawl over each other to get a job following the Holy Grail.. .. .The sooner management wake up to the fact that they should progressively slash wages and conditions until no one shows up for the interviews and then raise the salaries a grand to tempt you back, the sooner we the travelling public will get lower airfares.. .. .Automation make your profession symplistic and the Aussie pilots are the "Filipinos" of aviation and as long as an Aussie holds a licence; pilots salaries will only go one way; down and my shares will go up...yahhhh . .. .But then again, maybe 2XL just forgot to log off at SYD airport.....

A captain's worth what the market will pay.

Arm out the Window: Methinks you've just hit the nail fairly and squarely on the head.. .. .These days I think it's probably the lesser of what the "boss" is prepared to pay or a dollar less than the person behind you in the in the queue is prepared to accept.

The most pertinent point is what the market will pay. A recent QF forum discussing cost savings talked about a 7c per/km/seat difference between VB and QF. Of that 7c only 1c was made up of wage differences. The rest was terminals/valet parking/meal service etc,etc. The question then is, at what price do you wish to attack the 1c as against available savings in the other 6c. Then the analysis moves on to the 1c. Pilots wages in QF compare favourably with there major competitors at CX and SQ. I feel cabin crew and baggage handlers have more to fear in this area then the pilot group. QF is now the dominant employee in Australia but have no doubt as to who their major competitors are. Certainly not VB and A.I.P.A remains the dominant representative of pilots. As the industry continues to improve over the next twelve months world wide the pressure on pilot wages will certainly not be downwards.

"Buying a job at VB". I would think a $69,000 per year return is quite good on an investment of $20,000 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

No one has included the ex-strife(s) factor, that alone bears heavily on what a Captain's worth. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

Which ever way you want to calculate it. By the value of the equipment strapped to your back. By a complex formula based on the cost of living and CPI index of a Mid Western US state. By the equivilent amount a South African Airways captain gets in Rands, or by what you should be getting if the earth wasn't flatten about 13 years ago. In the end I go with Arm out the Window. Anything else is wishing and hoping. If you think you are worth more go where they think you are worth more.

Cruze Power,. .. .Inane post.Could have a balanced view of the Arab-Israeli problems too.You sound like a pilot hating engineer mate of mine.. .. .Capt`s worth?VB too low but possibly offset by morale and QF Capts wages must be under presssure.. .. .Not sure what the benchmark is now,QF or VB?

Read somewhere that the equivalent of two jumbo loads of patients per week die as a result of medical incompetence. Thats just in Australia alone.. .. .You post is a wind up cruze, and what is worse, it is an ignorant one at that. You are the weakest link.....goodbye!

I wonder if the APA advised the scabs they were entering a NIP.

And would Cruze Power, by any chance, be Mauritz Suiter(spl?) from recent Jet Blast fame?. .. .Certainly spouts the same sort of cr@p! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

I would think that if the bus/train drivers were required to spend 30K+ to get a licence that makes them essentially unemployable, then spend years driving minibusses for crap pay, then have to face the constant retesting and medicals etc to maintain the licence, then be forced to retire 5 or 10 years before the rest of the population they might possibly get their unions wound up for a pay rise.. .. .When aircraft are made to run on tracks past remote controlled checkpoints that stop them running into each other you might have a point. . .. .When aircraft can just stop on the spot in really bad weather or when the 'driver' is dead tired instead of roaring through the night at 15km/minute with a limited amount of fuel and a limited amount of places to get more(let alone the cost burden/management reaction associated with stopping for a top up)you might have a point.. .. .When busses and train drivers start getting hijacked and driven into the side of buildings (can you imagine the industrial action that would follow that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> )or guns held to their heads on Middle Eastern bus stops/train stations you might have a point.. .. .Until then you don't.. .. .Chuck.

CP - I don't know if the truth hurts, since there is nothing in your highly evocative, wind-up posts that even closely resembles the truth.

Cruze contol. .do you do stand up comedy because that was funny.

Cruze Control,. .. .And what about the Palestinian children on the West Bank?

Hey Cruze P this site is for PROFESSIONAL pilots - not frustrated ones, such as your attempted (and poorly spelled) wind-ups indicate YOU to be.. .. .Toddle off to your computer generated flight stimulator, dim the lights, and e-a-s-y with the KY as you pull yourself out of another death-defying battle with the Red Baron!. .. .You've got the WHOLE week-end ahead of you, before it's back to the "9-5 M-F" routine for another boring week of your wasted life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 09 March 2002, 12:12: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]</small>

Yes Mr. Cruze - I know of two recent near misses, rectified by the pilots in each aircraft, in one, and by one pilot in another.. .One case involved B747's, well publicised and the other, an A330, not publicised at all.. .In each case, the controller had failed.. .I do hope, Mr. Cruze, you are not in the profession.

Well said Mr Cruze... predicatable response from the readers however - it being a pilot's forum and all.... .. .When it all comes down it to it you're talking to a bunch of spoiled brats only one step up (and that's debateable) from Flight Attendants.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Messrs Cruze & Racle,. .. .The original question has been answered. For your benefit I will repeat. A Captain is worth what the market will pay. . .There is an upper and lower end to the bracket but it all depends simply on supply and demand.. .If you feel so grieved by this universal process then play your part in the equation.. .. .Don't hop on an aeroplane.. . . . <small>[ 09 March 2002, 13:16: Message edited by: BrisBoy ]</small>

I'm fairly sure that the average flight attendant earns more than I do, I aint no spoiled brat, I paid for my licence with bloody hard earned dollars without the help from mum and dad or the government, train wrecks kill lots of people, I would love to see a taxi driver do what I do all day and stay alive until smoko, anyone can get a taxi drivers licence and a bus drivers licence after paying the required fee and producing a not very thorough medical certificate (yes I have both)and by the time the avarage pilot gets to be commanding a large jet, I think they have done their share of apprentice shi t kicking on wages that would'nt support the local dole blugers drinking habit.. .I also think if you look at the wages a ships captain gets (and getting killed in a ship would be a lot slower process than, lets say CFIT on a dark night in cloud) you would find that it would be comparable to what a 747 400 driver gets, so is the road to getting to that higher wage bracket.. .and just to show you I am a profesional, I aint even going to call you a w@nker for winding every one up.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Mr Brisboy,. .. .I'm not aggrieved at all and I quite agree that the market sets the rate. I was just having ago at the all the egos out there. . .. .Having said that, no one has the right to belittle others for accepting whatever makes them personally satisfied. If this endangers somebody else's current renumeration level,well then the answers is yes - some pilots are apparently overpaid.. .. .It's simple really, if you're in a job you like and feel you get sufficient fiancial reward - great! If you're not or don't start looking for a new job (o/s if necessary).. .. .Frankly, the rest of us could do without the whinging.

Anyone who thinks QF will not cut crewing costs has missed the point of the AN demise. VB is now the second carrier in Oz - exactly what the Howard Government wanted. A lower cost carrier with less union muscle that will provide QF the bargaining power to lower labour costs and increase shareholder returns.. .. .The discussion about 7c cost/seat/km difference between VB and QF highlights the need for QF to trim costs - more so now that AN is dust. Labour is often the first target. . .. .AustralianAirlines/Impulse/NJS/AWAS/Forstaff Southern/Eastern/Sunstate etc.. .. .Join the dots.

The pay rates for the 'new' Australian Airlines (if it happens now) will give us an indication..

...... and no one has the right to belittle others of another occupation, such as Flight Attendants.

Piper, having a rough idea of what the new rates are I know what it says and it is really going to hack off some of the contributors to this forum.. .. .And thats all I'm gonna say about that. (As said by one F.Gump)

Some people on this site carry on like it is the pilot wages that are responsible for the downfall of Ansett and other airlines.. .. .How much does a F/A or a loader or a CSO earn compared to a waitress or perhaps a storeman or someone who works in retail.. .. .Compared with some of the wages that were on offer to management morons in Ansett, the pilots weren't overpaid. By comparison let's take the wages of someone who was in say the PR dept for Ansett. Well we know they didn't perform in their job the proof is they then had to spend millions on the "Absolutely" stuffed campaign. Do you think they were paid &gt; $60,000pa........ I think more likely &gt; $80K. How about all the Coles team leaders what was their start salaries?. .. .Do you people know what people in other industries make? The team Leaders in the call centre where I work make $65-70K, for basically a 9-5 job looking after 12 people every day!. .. .Don't worry about what the public thinks...the public expects that pilots should be paid good money. My friends kid around sometimes about the pilots life, 5 star hotels etc.... but life in a hotel isn't always fun by yourself, when your family is at home, more than likely eating sausages and mash (because the kids like it knucklehead) but they also know how much work goes into line checks and simulator and how often they are not home to watch the kids, and go out as a family. But this is not the reason that airlines go broke, is it? or have I really missed something? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .You guys are Professional Pilots.....well most of you besides that twit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> writing about pregnant pilots. And you deserve every cent you get, you work hard, and are under incredible pressures. . .. .Mrs Fishoutawater alias D_mal bit_D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Yes, I think Cruze lost his entire capital of credibility with that "Pregnant Pilots-What can be done?" thread.. .. .Obviously a wannabee windup merchant who probably failed the airline psych test and wonders why?