89 Dispute is now over
 

Am I the only one who feels like the 89 dispute is finally over - and we won.

* Ansett, Australian, East-West & Ipec all gone.. .* Hawke in ignominious retirement.. .* Abeles dead.. .* Dr. Hancock's corporatism theory discredited.. .* ACTU grip on government gone.. .* IRC almost irrelevant.. .* ALP a long way from election victory.. .* AFAP rebuilding for a bright future.. .* most scabs unemployed in a tight labour market.. .* 89'rs enjoying careers with EK, CX, KL, VS, KA, SQ etc

It really is too good to be true.

:)

Lets just find another group we can shaft, just so we can feel that revenge against a few has been gained, b ***** the innocents!

89 won't be dead until everyone involved in it is.

All you mention, HIALS, was predicted.. .But nobody believed it would happen, least of all the scabs, or the groundies who thought they were heroes. Not a lot for which to thank the heroes now I imagine. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

And the generation of flyers who had absolutely NOTHING to do with it, we're paying for it too.

To Captain Claret and like minded folks, I would like to make the following points.

My post was not intended to boast at the misfortune of the Ansett staff (except the scabs).

It was intended to make the oft-forgotten point that we stood for something in 89. Against the howling rancour of our Government, Employer Airlines, Media and public at large - we were the voice that predicted all this.

At the time our airlines were mismanaged internally. The Government/IRC/ALP/ACTU were conspiring to affect their own survival at the expense of the national well being and the airline industry's profitability. Politically and industrially powerful individuals were running the industry and the Companies that we loved into the ground.

It was this - call it whistleblowing - that we tried to do in 89.

We got shouted down.

You got hoodwinked. Into believing we were bad and wrong while the other side were good and right.

The scabs facilitated the victory of the Hawke/Abeles axis.

The list above is intended to use hindsight to review these last 12 years. It's been damned hard for all concerned. But at the end, we are the ones who predicted it. And, more than any other group we tried to stop it.

Allow us the satisfaction of seeing that we were right all along. There have been some bleak moments in 12 years living abroad.

We should not be afraid of saying "we told you so" nor "we were right" in order to avoid offending the sensibilities of Ansett employees. Otherwise we will think you wish to perpetuate the hegemonic mantra of the past 12 years - which has it that the scabs are heroes and we were greedy, stupid and aggressive.

In the end, Ansett (the same as SN & SR) was destroyed by scullduggery and inept management. We stood up and fought against that scullduggery and those inept individuals in 89 and the scabs facilitated their victory.

That's all.

[ 02 March 2002: Message edited by: HIALS ]</p>

Achilles,

Sorry man - but "for whom the bell tolls"....

Puff, you got it in one, it will be over in about 2029 when most of us will be six feet under or too old to give a rat's...until then it will consume a percentage of the Oz pilot population no matter what good fortune they have enjoyed since. And whoever started this post should be ashamed for arcing up these unfortunates all over again. Or is it a plot to have them drop out of the industry due stress? Meantime it's baaaad vibes if these feelings are encouraged to run in even a few cockpits out there, and when this stuff gets in to an entire company culture it has all sorts of dire potential.. .I have pleaded for a separate forum just for the 1989 issue before, so, again PLEASE, can we have a spot on pprune elsewhere for this? I am neither for nor against discussion on the various rights and wrongs of 89, just let's not have it dominate Dunnunda.

Its not entirely over, the Australia airlines [Qantas] scabs are still employed.

[quote]ACTU grip on government gone.. . <hr></blockquote>

Crean is in opposition mate and thats a bees dick and some average creative journalism from power.

[ 02 March 2002: Message edited by: The Crimson Fruitbat ]</p>

ccy sam,

I said 'most scabs...' for that reason.

Would much preferred to have been able to say 'all scabs...'

HIALS, I feel like we have won too, it's been a long hard war, but like all wars there is always casualties. (unfortunately I am one of them) I agree with what you have said, . .Quote

"Am I the only one who feels like the 89 dispute is finally over - and we won.

* Ansett, Australian, East-West & Ipec all gone.. .* Hawke in ignominious retirement.. .* Abeles dead.. .* Dr. Hancock's corporatism theory discredited.. .* ACTU grip on government gone.. .* IRC almost irrelevant.. .* ALP a long way from election victory.. .* AFAP rebuilding for a bright future.. .* most scabs unemployed in a tight labour market.. .* 89'rs enjoying careers with EK, CX, KL, VS, KA, SQ etc

It really is too good to be true."

I stayed here to fight the war, and spent close to 18 Months out of work. I was finally offered a job as an intake F/O back in Ansett in 1991, which is what we had been told that we were fighting for. What really upsets me is that some of my brothers in arms consider all Ansett Pilots to be scabs regardless of their employment date. As Ansetts policy was to promote based on joining date I have spent the last 10 years sitting in the right hand seat.

. .Regards

F/O_Zoolander (retired for now)

What a waste, 28 years experience

All the Best, Tim

I'm not taking sides, but if it is "over" then we can close this thread and we will hear no more of 89. Somehow I doubt it.

Oh, dear. Not the vindictive little men rattling their drums again?

<img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Personally I'm glad to see the Ansett name disappear - it once represented THE best airline where employees gave their all to see it stay at the top.. .That "once" was IMHO, obviously the years up to 1989.

The "Dispute", manipulated through the then Prime Minister - R.J.L. Hawke - in conjunction with the ACTU allowed a type of employee to enter our beloved Ansett. Scalpers who came for the quick, easy high dollar reward, were merceninaries, and cared solely for their OWN advancement and bank balance. Greedy opportunists who KNEW that there was an industrial dispute underway, but who stepped over us and our families to sieze the 30 pieces of silver.

To have OUR right of workplace representation denied us should have sounded an alarm with other Australian workers, and especially for that other worker representative body, the ACTU.. .And has it back-fired??

What Hawke began 12 years ago, P.M. Howard has used to his advantage. The ACTU, in 1989, condoned the employment of workers under individual contracts WITHOUT UNION REPRESENTATION, and ignored the question posed on thousands of AFAP flyers distributed at the time, WHO WILL BE NEXT?.. .For the sake of allowing some 800-odd SCAB pilots into the airlines, the ACTU sounded their OWN death knell.. .Congratulations, you short-sighted dropkicks, your come-uppance has arrived - and just as you (with a few noteable exceptions) took pleasure in seeing us and our families cast aside, the survivors of 1989 have had to take an extra strong dose of Panadol these past couple of days to alleviate the hangovers from over imbibing! :)

There is genuine concern for the "innocents" of Ansett - probably as much as there was for us at the time - but for the "heroes" who were welcomed with open arms, by Hawke, Abeles, and the ACTU, they are no less deserving of the contempt they were shown 12 years ago, than they are today. Their actions were UN-Australian, and their presence in Australia's workforce an enigma to all that Australians hold as core values.

The name "Ansett" was tarnished fatally in 1989, when it was used as the lead vehicle, and unfortunately become synonymous with "scab" - . ."Ansett - the scabs' Airline".

Ansett has now gone, and I'm glad it has!!

How come AN always copped the flack for having all the 'scab' labour, Australian had just as many pilots as AN did, and most of them are still flying around with the red rat, however these guys seem to be the forgotten 'scabs' it seems, why are they immune?

Puff. I guess they have found a happy and safe refuge in Qantas which is hard to call a 'Scab' airline when the greater part is the former international only operation. Their refuge is safe as long as the larger QF pilot group accepts them.

Guy's I find it amazing that you can't move on from 89. Aussies have faught wars and forgiven faster, and they fought for more noble causes with less personal gain and suffered far worse. let it Gooooo

Hey ZOO, if you were one of the "few", then you were where you were entitled to be. You would be wise, now, not to treat the heroes with whom you worked for ten years, with any less disgust than some of us already do.. .The pleaders for a separate forum because of your claim that '89 is dominant, well, maybe that should tell you something.. .The AA scabs are not forgotten. They exist, but they certainly hide behind the strides of their QF colleagues.. .As for the QF OS guys, their fearless leaders back in the early 1980's lead them over the cliff of "independent/we can do better by ourselves" mentality, and the Australian airline pilots are certainly paying now for that stupidity.. .You have to ask yourselves, how is it that the salary for a Captain on, say a B737, is not much above what was paid to the same equipment in 1989? And that takes nothing of inflation into account.. .Abeles got exactly what he wanted when he managed to get the heroes to scab. He wanted bus drivers salaries, and that is what all will have soon.. .The only rescue is getting back where all professional pilots belong, and that is under one umbrella in the AFAP, and BE UNIFIED AND ACTIVE!. .Unless you do, you will continue to take the profession into the oblivion that all managements want.. .Wake up before it is too late! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 03 March 2002, 01:11: Message edited by: Tool Time Two ]</small>

I agree TT2 wholeheartedly but as it has been said QF scabs , are still there as a thorn in QF's side and DJ's pilot force are fast becoming factionalized. What goes on from here is anyones guess.

HIALS. .. ."For Whom The Bell Tolls".. .. .Like Achilles then,in your opinion:. .. ."The Bell Tolls For Thee".. .. .If you are referring to Hemingway`s classic about the Spainish Civil War and similarities of the circumstances of junior AN pilots,I disagree.

what sort of union is AIPA when they accept scabs..qantas boasts that every employed pilot meets there criteria. What about the people that joined australian in 89 who only had to kiss arse to get a job! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

TT2, I was QF longhaul from before 89.. .Unfortunately you and some [only some] of your compatriates have no idea!. .Tha AFAP was not in 1980 or 89 and still isn't the most enlightened bunch.. .Ask any GA Pilot! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="redface.gif" />

tankengine,. .That was well and truly demonstrated in 1989.. .In fact the quality of the AFAP fell markedly after Dick Holt's era. None of his successors were fit to stand in his shadow and that was after about 1980.

Then, FSU, and I reiterate it for you, you would have been better getting ACTIVE in the AFAP. maybe then you wouldn't be a scab. And you suggest Bert Smithwell (QF) was unworthy of Dick's shadow? I doubt that. . .Tank, your then Chairman took you out of the AFAP for the wrong reasons.. .The QF pilots believed they could do better, and the fact is they have not. The fragmentation of professional pilots in Australia, where the power base is small ( compared to USALPA), can only be detrimental to all professional pilots.. .As for GA, the AFAP did more for GA pilots than any other organisation, because there wasn't one. GA being what it is, GA pilots will always feel isolated individually, but generally they are better off than without the AFAP.. .Take my advice, GET INTO THE AFAP AND GET ACTIVE.. .Otherwise we retirees will continue to watch the profession become exactly what Abeles and Hawke and Kelty intended. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

Oh yes, I remember a QF captain as AFAP president sought to impose his preferred method of pilot integration on the Ansett pilots in past years. He had been wrapped in cotton wool too long as a QF captain and his ideas did not prevail. Activity does not always occur within the AFAP especially when one section of pilots seeks to usurp the rights of others.. .. .Anyway TTT make up your mind one way or another. You say on one hand that pay rates are too high and then on the other too low.. . . .And the VB pilots have possibly the lowest pay rates around sanctioned by the AFAP. Not knocking VB just pointing out a fact. And the chief of VB is one of the chaps who started this mess with a 30% pay claim with no increase in productivity. While you may claim otherwise the fact is that the AFAP sought a 30% pay rise. All the principles you now use to claim the high moral ground were the aftermath of stupid tactics adopted by the AFAP.. .. .Both sides used reprehensible and immoral tactics so it is a bit rich to claim otherwise especially in the light of lies told to the pilots by the AFAP. Thanks to A Patterson's list it is easily demonstrated that the "dribble" of foreign pilots you referred to earlier was indeed a flood and at the very time when the AFAP lied that there were none.. .. .Enjoy your retirement.. . . . <small>[ 03 March 2002, 13:07: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</small>

The Alex Paterson list seems to have gone. Any links ?

Now I understand how this all happened to poor old Ansett.. .. .Those who took the high moral position in 89 willed it on Ansett and the bloody scabs. It's a bit like pointing the bone - it's really harmless except in the mind of he at whom it is pointed, so those who had no 'spinal fortitude', to quote some loser, actually brought it on themselves and the company by worrying it into reality.. .. .Yeah, right!. .. .The AFAP is about to buy 50 aircraft at 50M each so you GA guys join up and get active.. .. .Alex is probably sick of updating after 12 years, so it's disappeared.

strobes-on,. .The link can not be posted here. The Moderator removes it for self protection. However if you go to ANZWERS or some other search and enter Alex Paterson........Australia you will find it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

ANSETT is lying to rest......We all have our story.....some noble and some less so....Regardless i was proud to fullfill my dream and fly for Ansett......I had some of the best fun ever in my career.....Inspite of management, government, been counters, pilots history etc.. .The end of an era and under the circumstances...timely.....god? rest her soul!!!

Very interesting view HIAL . .. .You dont like a few people out of a group so you wish doom on the entire group, and when it happens and effects many people out side of that group also, you rejoice.. .. .says a lot about the selfish attitudes of yourself and a number of your fellow 89ers, unfortunatly you are just a noisy minority who have been so twisted up over a stupid choice you made over 10 years ago, i am friends with a number of 89ers who have the attitude that they made a mistake in resigning and hey they learned and moved on all 89ers aren't as bitter as you guys stop destroying the reputation of all aussie pilots by your biased attitudes. .. .Sure you arent actually 39ers from germany, wishing all ansett pilots unemployment and dificult times because you dont like a few? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .I also noticed a few people a while ago were happy when a couple of so called scabs felt they had no option left but to end there life, if that made you happy you need serious mental evaluation!. . . . <small>[ 03 March 2002, 08:54: Message edited by: Captain Kellogs ]</small>

wow man.. .. .Next time can you draw breath, use some punctuation and spell properly. I'm afraid I couldn't understand your point. Are the veins standing up on your neck?. .. .Do you always get so agitated about things that don't concern you?. .. .Cheers

I posted this on another strain of the same virus.. .. ."I'm sure the 89' issue did some damage, but put it in perspective. . .. .I knew a man who was a POW at Changi, he was there at the time Singapore was surrended. He spent years in that hell hole watching his mates get killed and then he was sent to Japan to work in the mines. . .. .I once asked him what he thought of the Japanese, his reply stunned me. He did not hold grudges against them at all. He had a job to do and so did they. . .. .I wish I can be a quarter of the man this person was. . .Comparitive to the continuous weeping heart bull$%^$ that flows on here everytime someone mentions 89, it is quite pathetic.. .. .Maybe its time to get over it, worse things have happened to people and better people have learnt from it.". .. .Let it go..... .. .Oh and HIALS, you forgot a "W" for your first line and a full stop after your last. . .Moron. .. .Dog. . . . <small>[ 03 March 2002, 12:58: Message edited by: Dogimed ]</small>

As a matter of interest, Dogimed, was your friend who spent time in Changi a Chinese Singaporean, or an Australian (or another variety of our species?)? For as surely as the Aussies who were captors in Changi, let their feelings show publically, the Asian prisoners achieved their revenge mercilessly, but without any outward displays.. ."It is not wise for the Aerean white,. .To hustle the Asian brown,. .For while the white man riles,. .The Asian smiles,. .And weareth the white man down.. .Rudyard Kipling.. .. .Perhaps some of us HAVE learnt a thing or two from our Asian brothers over the past dozen or so years! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> (The constant dripping of water, wears away the stone) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Dogimed, ask your old POW mate if he’s still with us whether his commendable sense of forgiveness extends to his fellow POWS who cheated their mates out of food rations by using doctored scales and informed on fellow prisoners to the Japanese for extra rations or favoured treatment, sometimes resulting in the deaths of their fellow countrymen. . .. .Or of the not so small number of Australian officers who, at the end of the war, still had their full issue of kit and lived relatively comfortably in the officers’ lines while some of their men didn’t even have a pair of shorts to wear – they got by with lap-laps. We Australians like to ignore some unpalatable truths in our maintenance of the ANZAC legend, but what I’ve mentioned above happened. My reference? ‘Changi Samauri’, by Penrod Deane and James Clavell’s classic ‘King Rat’. . .. .Those ‘not so bronzed’ ANZACs did pretty unspeakable things for their own advantage and to the detriment of their mates, as a small proportion of any group will do when faced with a desperate situation. But except for the Indians who joined Bose’s puppet Indian National Army under the Japanese, I don’t know of any other POWs in the Pacific theatre who donned the uniform of the Japanese and took up arms against their former comrades. . .. .Unlike the ‘heroes’ of 47 years later that we’re talking about here.. . . . <small>[ 04 March 2002, 03:32: Message edited by: Wiley ]</small>

Hey Capt. Kellogs and Dogimed you "heroes" have got it wrong, 89ers are the majority and yes we stayed in the trenches and fought like hell for some sort of justice and with regard to the QF scabs I guess the job is only half done.. .. .I find it hilarious thinking back to '89 now when one of the main excuses by the Scabs to return was WE ARE GOING BACK TO SAVE THE AIRLINE.. .. .Well "Heroes" the last "B...........rds" I would want to see trying to rescue me would be you lot if that's saving something.. .. .What have you got now nothing and you took a lot of probably misguided decent guys with you who joined up well after '89 whereas to a man or woman most of us 89ers still have decent careers. All you've got now is the dole Q. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Sniffer,. .. .I will take nothing anyday rather than hatred and bitterness that seems to control your life.. .. .I wasn't even there during 89. I formed my opinion by the way you people have carried on at pprune. . .. .Surely the professional attitude should carry away from the cockpit.. .. .Dog

Love that fallback excuse: "I wasn't there in '89".. .As Amos used to say: "Lie down with dogs.....".. .Well that seemed to work.. .FSU, as you mentioned some time ago, you did not have a direct involvment in the AFAP, yet your attacks on it are never ending.. .As I have mentioned before, in the profession, if you don't like it - get in and fix it.. .Oh no - much easier to sling excrement at those who do.. .I don't believe you can show any of my posts which stated that scabs were paid too much.. .Many of my posts may have indicated that the scabs made the money grab, which simply indicates you had the knives out for people you previously called colleague.. .You criticism of the AFAP and the 30% claim doesn't seem to have deterred you from running back to scab.. .I recall one character coming in to the AFAP and bleating about the appalling 30% pay claim, and how could it be justified etc., etc. Before anyone could answer, he scabbed.. .Perhaps that is you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

For all the "carry on " about who did what to who and why....? , I think the hereoes of the day showed their true colours with who got an A320 job and who did not. I would think that some of those who had fleas are now wearing flee collars and are voicing a different opinion of their former fellow workers.

To understand how the Pilots who lost their jobs in 89 feel and why it still hurts, you have to imagine the effects. Loss of employment and income. Watching others take 'their' jobs while still in an industrial dispute. In some cases health problems or marriage breakdown and family breakups. Having to leave Australia, home or family in search of employment; or losing aviation as a career altogether. Loss of commradeship and friends. It goes on and on. If you weren't there it will be hard to understand. And this wasn't during a war so the comparisons are hardly relevant. This was peactime Australia.. .The pain was inflicted by both politicians and aviation colleagues. If you have suffered the consequences of such a saga; forgetting is not always just a casual choice. At least the current group of pilots faced with career decisions can take comfort in the knowledge that only economic factors were to blame. In this changed financial environment of 2002 it is a force that everyone may be forced to confront at some stage.