Air Ngukurr Grounded......
 

An inside source stated that somone "may have broken a rule"....... .CASA gave Air Ngukurr an Aust Day pressie by removing their CP, effectively grounding the carrier UFN.. .Anyone got some more details?

I heard it too, apparently they have to find a new chief pilot before they can opperate further. AOC still stands, and all planes grounded.

Is this the same guy who caused all the ruckus on PPRuNe some time ago.

Seems like they may take some time but I suspect they heard it here on first.

so at this risk of asking a completely blonde question ... does that mean all of Wimray's ops are included in this as well?

Like, they can really afford this with another carrier trying to compete on the routes... but I hear the pricing is pretty keen ...

AND .. I hear a bandit is/was on the way to compete with the Twotter ... ???

Yes gaunty, it is the very same person who caused alot of trouble back here a time ago, i can't seem to remember who it was exactly that started it all <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . .All i can say is that if he has been doing what he has been accused of, then he probably deserves it, you can't take it easy and not suffer the consequenses.. .And yes The Voice, the Bandit is on its way up, saw it leave YSBK the other day, nice looking machine. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

CASA at it again !!! 2030 hrs on a Friday night, by Fax, and cites rumours and innuendo as the basis for their actions. God help us - no one else can. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

I thought that if he'd been virtually pulled as CP they might at the end of the day have something this time. 100 people cant be wrong, just go ask 'em.

Yes Gaunty, the horses mouth tells me that it was indeed the screwball that caused the ruckus some time ago. that screwball is on my "thanks, but no thanks" list.

Guys, . .Before i might make a mistake, can somebody email me with the details of this "ruckus" that happened some time ago...?

&gt;Jenny Talia : 100 people cant be wrong, just go ask 'em...... Ask 'em what ?

Virtually, in the real world, at the end of the day; What goes around comes around! I heard he kept a position as manager, I feel sorry for the pleb that's gonna be the new CP/Baby sitter.

The CP was suspended at close of business Friday. As a result all Air Ngukkur pilots have been suspended without pay. (anyone know the legalities of this??). . .A stand-in CP is to be appointed on Tuesday enabling operations to continue. The AOC is intact, allowing Air Ngukkur trading as Wimray to cross hire aircraft over the weekend.. .Quite a few pilots sitting at home with smiles on their faces....... :) . .The bandit should be in DN late arvo today.

From the horses mouth.

I wasnt aware you could operate over weekends without a CP?

What exactly (virtually) was the reason he was removed as CP?

If you are a full time employee of the company you cannot be suspended without reason, CP being removed is not a reason. Also if you have been casual for 3 or more months you are also entitled to a full time salary and all the extras (holiday pay etc) and if you havent been getting them you have rights in lieu. I was led to believe that there were guys still casually employed after a year. THIS IS ILLEGAL (talk to your union or the industrial relations commission).

An anomoly I also wanted some clarification on was, how can a guy on CP salary be able to buy all the things this guy has? (house in Cullen Bay, several aircraft, etc). He wasnt wealthy before he started with Air Ngukurr, maybe someone should look at where he is getting all this money!! Although I feel sorry for the pilots who are unfortunate enough to work for this guy I feel even more sorry for the aboriginal owners who he seems to be taking to the cleaners as well.

......alledgedly

Jenny

This was an issue discussed at length in the thread of long ago which I can't seem to find as I suspect they wound up in Admin cyberspace.

It seems that CASA have finally acted on the operational side, I guess it's past time for the Federal Govt dept responsible for financial issues to go have a look at what's happening.

Our indigenous brethren don't deserve this.

So, apart from being a nice guy to the employees, which Reg. was busted???? <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> . . <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Speaking from personal experience, CASA are not likely to divulge details of investigations prior to them being completed and acted upon if necessessary, not even to primary witnesses so the likelyhood of finding out what the CP is being charged with is slim unless he says something directly.

If the information CASA have been provided with is correct and able to be proven they may choose to act further. Any rumour or inuendo may cloud such an investigation, wasting time, money and resources of both the company in question and CASA.

Sure, there are times when CASA appeared to have their facts slightly skewed but there are operators who for the greater good were shut down to be replaced eventually by a hopefully better one.

It still in the end comes down to the pilots. Are you operating purely to gain hours or are you flying to the high standards which are expected by the innocent clientel. Pilots have a choice.

Its my family you guys are flying around now, I dont want them flying in a VFR aircraft in IFR conditions, flying in a twin which mandatory instruments are U/S, or flying with pilots who take risks just because they want the hours or the boss hasnt paid the fuel bills thus limiting the refuelling points.

Let CASA do its job, limit the rumour to substaniated fact. If you have information give it to the relevent folks to do what they can, and lay off the mud slinging. Ive been in the industry a short time compared to most, but its long enough to see friends killed and families morn for loved ones lost in the ingorance of "business" and "collecting hours for the logbook". Sobering yes, but its preventable, if the right information is given to the appropriate people.

Thats my two bits...

Q. How does CASA get information, or valuable leads from companies with brow-beaten employees scared of turning their name to mud?. .A. Often by gaining it through anonymous sources, such as this, sure there's a lot of crap mixed in, but someone who knows a snippet will know what to look for.

It is interesting to note that when CASA "pulled" the AOC for Alice Springs Air Charter, they issued a press release which is (still)on their website.

However nothing about Air Ngukurr on their website yet. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Final thought; no smoke without fire. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

I seem to remember something along the lines of CDEP wages, and mobile phone approaches (MPAs). :)

PLease tell me the pilots were not being paid CDEP wages. I have heard of some bad pay conditions but CDEP for a Pilot?

Bloody good isn't it Bongo Driver. Professional plus. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> Thank god elements of justice still prevail. What goes around really does come around.. . <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

I can honestly say, It’s about time.. .That $hit head (cp) has been hanging on by a very thin thread.. . . .I was once a CDEP pilot, getting $19000 PA. . .Considering I had to pay for my own accommodation in Darwin while on 100 hrlys etc…. .The CDEP was not that great. Living in that Blue Donga was hell. Having the CP call up anytime on the UHF radio. Never did get my rest, worked like a dog.

Getting a call at 0600, and having to drive to the strip to get the CP's aircraft ready for a charter. The lazy man couldn’t even get up in time. The man would never lift a finger, as he once said. I employ people to work for me. Ironic really, the government missed out big time.

Along with six fellow pilots, I put in a CAIR reports on Air Ngukurr, nothing ever came out of them. Looks like one hundred pilots can’t be wrong.

I hope the remaining pilots don’t get mixed up in all happening. I can honestly say you will never be happier now that he is gone.

The best thing that came out of this for me was never give any pilot disrespect. We have to work together and become a great team.

Hone hope Goodyear will take you back. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[ 28 January 2002: Message edited by: YNGU ]</p>

W.N your on a roll, close down one more and you have a Hat trick. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Sunday Territorian today...

Pilots asked to. .leave Ngukurr.. .BY ALAN HARDIE

Two Air Air Ngukkur pilots have been flown back to Darwin at the request of the Ngukurr Community it was revealed yesterday.

Rosanna Edwards, in charge of bookings and accounts at Air Ngukurr confirmed yesterday that two pilots from the company flew to Darwin on Saturday night.

Ms Edwards said: "But I can guarantee no one has been sacked from this airline.

"People are removed from different communities for different reasons.

"It could be for a matter of safety or for their conduct or behaviour that they are removed from an area."

Ms Edwards said the community at Ngukurr, about 300km east of Katherine, had asked for the two pilots to be flown out.

She was unable to give a reason for the pilots' removal or say how long their removal would last.

"I don't know the full story and therefore don't wish to comment further," she said yesterday.. ."We are trying to contact our chief executive officer for comment, but being a Sunday she may be out all day."

The Northern Territory News was unable to contact officials at Ngukurr community yesterday.

Air Ngukurr was formerly known as Wimray.

Make that the NT News, Monday 28/1....

Yup sounds like the same old same old coming out of there.. .Wimray people just jumped right out of the frying pan into the fire.

CDEP and other matters financial, need serious audit and investigation.

WN

What goes around comes around......

Doesn't feel too good when you're f****d 'round does it?

Time to hit the roads again maybe? Me thinks you have exhausted the NT - TAS might be the go?

It's a small industry, people know people and don't forget....

Gotta love that Karma

http://freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/c...sfiring_v1.gif

Hmmm....what a coincidence...... .The good people of the Ngukurr community ask the pilots to be outta town by sundown at precisely the same time that the esteemed leader of their little flying company alledgedly gets, ahem, a little demotion.

D'ya reckon he mighta had a hand in that?? Naaa...

A bit of a strange moved considering the only feathers ruffled alledgedly seem to be a bit further northwest of Ngukurr.

Considering the lads original reason for moving out to Ngukurr was to 'spread the good word', it looks like he alledgedly may not have been doing things exactly as the good book would like, eh?

There are people right across this great brown land that just sit and wonder at the plethora of worms that will be fairly oozing out should the can be opened properly this time, and all the books read.

northern_chique, agree with you 100%.

So, how does a person get to make a big bag of money by living on top of a hill 300 nm from anywhere ?

Lets look at how a Community's money flow works; money comes into CDEP, UB, child allowance every fortnight and it goes straight into the shop, the airline, the club/pub, the deisel pump, or anywhere else that can be found to fully spend the whole lot. Savings = zero because if the locals save it they can't spend it and if ya got it ya spend it. . .That means if you run a business or businesses that encompass the range of spending habits you can capture a lot of money and squirrel it away. Thats' business, but this of course means nothing gets retained by the community and all the blackfella money that should be put to use in Community infrastructure gets to pay for some whitefella's Jag and big boat, while the Community locals get to live the same fortnight over and over a thousand times.. .This you don't learn in your Indigenous Culture course at Monash Uni.

"Community owned" businesses ? They exist but in some Communities but one local shareholder does not make a Community owned business.

In the end bulk $ flows out of the Communities because their economies are set up on a 'market' basis not a 'social welfare' basis (I sound like Che Guevara!). Why? Thats the way the Oz economy works and small balls-ups like it's effect in blackfella camps does not register as being the cause of the problems so often photographed by the media and theorised about in the Camp Dogs 101 course at Monash.

Basically a Community is a big target if you want to make a buck - end of story. The NT floats on Canberra money, but now we are talking about where it goes not where it comes from.

How far can you take it if you want to swim in Blackfella dough ? Now the fun starts.. .Step one is to get involved in Community funds adminstration. With control of the money you can rake off levies, direct debit CDEP funds for business you run (did someone define conflict of interest?), make up dodgy projects that need ATSIC or NLC funding, buy stuff and sell it (like furniture or something even bigger like a grader or a truck or something), or just make up bodgy CDEP recipients.

Step two is get the locals into the game. See above about spending the lot. If its there its spent. Each Community has about a half dozen clans with their own leaders. The clan leaders all get a good feed too, and in fact form the meat that goes on the bones of the rorts set up around the economic centres in the community. "Ok, you want a fishing project?" "Well, you'll need a Toyota for it too ! And a loan". .Cash handouts are easy too, in fact the boot is often on the other foot when a clan leader decides he needs a cash pay - someone down the Roper with a name like Daniels might be good at this <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> the record I think was about 30K and no it didn't last long... .The payoff here for the whitefella (but do I hear a Haka ?) is plenty of backup from the clans getting fed. Oh sorry, clan leaders I meant. Not a great deal dribbles down to the bottom but DN Casino likes the idea.

So, CASA gets a whole heap of calls; "Hey that airline real important - yu can't stop them - we complain to dat ATSIC Minister, eh !". . . .By the way, what do ATSIC and NLC do about all this ? Well the local reps get fed their Mars Bars too, so they don't want to make any trouble.

What if competing clan leaders want to object? 'Object?' No more like get a slice of the action. Remember, they all grew up together and they all know the game. Its no-lose for them because no matter what, that money just has to keep on flowing.

What in practice happens is different economic centres, eg. the shop and the Council, are owned by and get to pay off, different clans. (When you move in new and start an airline, you get to meet the clan who its been sorted out as being the airline clan.)

So, it starts off as business and soon moves to frauds. No one really notices and no one really cares because its all too far away. Its still open about what the new NT govenment will do about it all - so far not a lot.

For the whitefella (Kamati-Kamati-YAAAAA) participants it can lead to a sh*tload of overconfidence. They really ARE on top. That plus NT burnout if you are flying. Fun.

Why do I know all this? Hey - I've been a GOD too!

--------------------------------

Alrite brus na sistas Dis pilot tell me all dis na I just writim down. E got no prune one like me eh! See ya!

Roberty!

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: RobertyRoberts ]</p>

So are their aircraft flying again or are they still cross hiring?

. .Jenny,

[quote] An anomoly I also wanted some clarification on was, how can a guy on CP salary be able to buy ... (a) house in Cullen Bay, several aircraft, etc). . ..... .Although I feel sorry for the pilots who are unfortunate enough to work for this guy I feel even more sorry for the aboriginal owners who he seems to be taking to the cleaners as well.. . <hr></blockquote>

If you own an aircraft and have a preferential hiring arrangement with a company, you can charge whatever you like. Nothing illegal about that bit of it. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

No one suggested it was illegal to own your own aircraft, nor to hire them out to whomever you liked (whether it be yourself or not). I think attention was more perhaps being drawn to the level of opulent spending that an individual might be capable of on a lil' ole CP salary. Hell, there's nothing wrong with having investments, its just a question of who's keeping up your repayments.

I could not agree with you more!

Forget about the monentry rewards for his position, isn't this the same guy who is known to insist a pilot fly through conditions only suitable if you have an Instrument rating regardless of if you hold the rating or not? Of course he has "no recollection of the fact".. .I would consider this guy lucky that he is facing CASA and not a coroners inquiry and a devastated family.. . <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

So whats happening....?!!!!!

It's almost been a week since this happened and still no 'new' news on the subject.

Whoever's in the know, whats the go?!

Last word I heard from the bush is that they (at least) have a C2?? on cross hire operating under someone elses AOC... I think Alice Springs, but info reliablity could not be confirmed. Anyone else able to shed light?

UPDATE: <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> . .I am not really in the know first hand, and get my info from the current pilots for Air NGU. So the following is still Rumor but basically fact. I follow this story with great interest.

Word is that 2 pilots have admitted to the Chief Pilot, they filed C.A.R.E reports with CASA. The CARE reports outlined some ongoing safety concerns within the company. The chief pilot promptly sacked them both with out warning. The Chief pilot was the temporary replacement CP due to the first CP losing his approval. He had been in the CP position for 2 days only. Now from all accounts I have heard that the new CP is a good bloke, but I find it rather amusing that they expect us to believe he made these sackings of his own accord. One of the conditions of him becoming Chief, is that he calls the shots and does not become QUOTE pantyripper “the pleb that's gonna be the new CP/Baby sitter” and take orders and exact revenge on behalf of the old Chief.

Apparently 6 current pilots have sent in CARE reports to CASA. The “C” in CARE means confidential, but the old Chief somehow found this out and went on a mission to find out who sent them in. 2 pilots admitted it and got sacked. Another two (I am told quit), possibly after being given an ultimatum “quit or we sack you as well”. That leaves two current pilots working for the company that have sent info to CASA. I am told the old chief is trying very hard to find out who they are. No doubt they will be unfairly dismissed as well.

Surely if the above is true, the directors, CEO and both chief pilots have exposed themselves to several court cases for unfair dismissal. In this business if you express safety concerns, then get sacked as a result, that is unfair dismissal for sure.. .Surely these people would not be so blatantly STUPID to do this with all the publicity they are getting from the news papers and the CASA audit??? Or would they…. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Come to think of it they have never been the smartest of operators. :)

So where to from here any one else got any news. Also could someone post all the newspaper articles from last week here on PpruNe.

****Please note, I believe the above to be true, and obtained from a source woithin the company, but it is all rumor until anything is proven. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

Well a report that has worked. Absolutley amazing.. .However when there is a bottomless pit of money it doesn't matter what is done. Pull a CP approval they just go borrow someone elses AOC makes a mokery of CASA. But then again we are all just mere mortals. I would be interested to see a full audit done (not just casa) to see exactly how much has been ripped from the community over the years. Not just been beaten by the Kiwi's in cricket but beaten by the Kiwis in the community as well. No sour grapes here I just think that it is a joke that will blow over no harm done. That is of course unless the mentioned CP loses his lic and gets a proper reprimand. Is there hard evidence or just words from ex employees? Anyway at the end of the day it will be interesting to see what happens.

Now who will win the fight of the Islands-. .Eastland 2 Twotters, Air Ngukurr Bandit, bet ya those islanders and all travellers are loven it, cheap for them.

Biggles, I think you are referring to CAIR (Confidential Air Safety Incident Reports) which do not go to CASA, but ATSB. They may have sent a courtesy copy to CASA, though. It's a worry when these reports get "sprung", I found one I'd sent only to ATSB splashed all over the pages of the local paper once. Could be that they emailed it, and then didn't delete the email from the "sent" box, for someone else to find.

However I have yet to see any action taken or follow up whatsoever on any of the CAIRs I've sent in, in fact they have all been a complete waste of time; CASA would probably dismiss it as "anecdotal evidence" and ignore it, so I think the CP may have over reacted, anyway these sackings are disgraceful.

HMMMMMM, must get that night rating finished. :) :) :)