Why Give Ansett Crews Such Preferential Treatment
 

I feel sorry for the guys who lost their jobs at Ansett, just as I would if any pilot lost his/her job, however can someone explain to me what makes these pilots with their previously highly paid jobs more important than any other poor bastard who loses his job in this most mercenary of industries.
I lost my job some years back when a company I was with went tits-up, and I cant recall the government doing anything for me (except supplying me with the dole.)\
There was no call for other companies who might be looking for pilots to have to employ myself or fellow out-of-work pilots from my company before they could expand, such as Virgin has been advised to do by John Anderson.
For the dull ones out there, my point is that the Ansett pilots deserve to be able to apply for any jobs that may become available, but they should do so on the same basis as everyone else, and not with any government preferential treatment.
Let them achieve any new jobs on their abilities and aptitude like everyone else must.

Hear! Hear! The AN pilots are not better than any other pilots - they're simply overpaid.

The govt never assisted any other unemployed pilots in this manner. Let the AN pilots take their chances like any other.

Write to your local member and voice your oppinion as they ignore you now at there own peril.

The King:- I fear your ID says it all, delusions of grandeur coupled with a huge chip on your ermine-clad shoulder. I haven't heard, or read, of any demand for preferential treatment for ex-AN pilots, indeed it can be shown that, even those returning to limited work under the Administrator are employed on minimal pay and conditions. For example, on another thread the other day, I commented that KD S340 pilots are flying in the right seat as Year1 F/Os, and in the left seat as Year5 Captains, with NO allowances, (DTA, etc.), irrespective of previous status.

I suspect that your previous experiences have soured your regal nature, and you feel the necessity to denigrate others now in the same position. If so, you have my sympathies, both for your experiences and subsequent disillusionment, but please try to restrain yourself to reality as it is , not as you perceive it to be. Life is tough enough for all just now, please try to make it a little more pleasant for everyone.

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.

I understand your anger guys, but ther is an election on! the govt has to be seen to be taking a pro-active stance dont they? Whether they mean what they say will be proven in the months after the election. Dont get too wound up by an election promise from politicians!! Are you the only two people in Australia that believe election promises from either party? If you are, I would like to welcome you to the Australian democratic process comrades, I hope your boat trip from Iraq wasnt too uncomfortable.

As for preferential treatment with other carriers, there is a three fold benefit that I can see for both QF and DJ. They get experienced endorsed crews for minimal investment, they get to pick what they consider to be the better of the operators out of the AN system so that if MarkII does get going, they dont have the crews to do it, making rebuilding very expensive, and they get positive press, allowing them to stand up and say "We are the good guys, look what we did to help out!" Win, Win Win.

To the King & Casper,
why are you guys so angry about high paying airline jobs?Why are you guys so angry at highly experienced & qualified AN pilots?There are reasons,just add a few more posts so I can ascertain where all of these insecurities come from.

MR KING - I likewise have read nowhere about preferential treatment for AN drivers.

Whilst we're at it what differentiates the AN drivers compared to the salaries of their QF counterparts?
There's stuff all in it.

Now - a 747-400 Second Officer making upwards of $120,000 per year Mr King - now thats what I call overpaid!

Mr King - you get what you pay for and after some 35 years of airline flying I can tell you that if somebody is reportedly overpaid I ask you - compared to what?

Just compare salaries around the world of pilots flying similar types and I assure you pilots in Oz are not overpaid at all.
Certainly a 737 pilot with Polynesian airlines or Air Nauru get paid alot less than QF/AN but at the same time check out what Southwest is paying their 737 pilots!

Mr King - pilots are like chalk and cheese but when they are put into a check and training environment where their livelihood and passenger safety depends on the pilot's proficiency a number of times per year and an airline has the reputation of being number 2 in the world in terms of safety (AN) then I would never begrudge a pilots salary.

Would you Mr King go to an underpaid doctor for surgery I wonder or would you prefer the overpaid (and more likely more experienced) counterpart?
I guessed as much.

Sounds like sour grapes to me lad.

1013, Dunno if you should be making reference to a super successfull operation like Southwest and relating it to the AN discussion. Southwest are the benchmark of profitability and success in domestic operations. Hardly a comparison me thinks.

Onya

1013, the figure you mention for -400 second officers is a lot...until you consider that most of those pilots had the experience and licences to be captains when they joined. It is also noteworthy that most other longhaul operators utilise up to two captains and two F/Os for the same sectors as those where QF uses 1x captain, 1x F/O(cruise captain) and 2 S/Os. It is merely QF policy to recruit all pilots to the position of S/O, assigning them to type on joining day. S/O pay is a defined as a factor of captain's pay for the given type.
So...it's a major saving in terms of pilot costs, enabled by the fact that many are prepared to accept less money and slower promotion in order to live in and work from Oz in a company like Qantas. Just the facts.

Just an observation:two types of pilots onPPrune. 1)those who are trying to protect their conditions they signed the dotted line for.
2)those who through envy,insecurity or whatever incomprehensible trait,continuously attempt to erode better conditions.

1013. 2nd in the world in safety??? Get your hand off it son, you'll go blind.

Grrange Gussler,

Are yooo so fricken getrunken on you vine, zat yooo are unable to recall a vorldvide safety rrrreport zat showed Ansett to be ze second zafest airline in ze vorld (behind ze Canucks). Yooo pherflicker dumbkopf!!!

Don't be abuzing ozers unless you know yooo are abzolootly corrrect!

Arschloch.

Dear (wan)King , I am yet to receive any government assistance other than social security. Maybe when this is all over AN pilots that do not get their old job back will get other jobs ahead of you due to superior qualifications and experience. I dont think VirginB will listen to anything Anderson has to say. Do you?

1013 Don't go using figures which you do not have first hand knowledge of and stick to the facts as I know for certain you are wrong in at least one of your quotes

Regardless of the circumstance, pilots and anyone else losing their jobs is bad news - a situation I hope does not affect too many more in this economic cycle(but unfortunately it looks as if it will).
However, despite the coming of a Federal election the assistance given to one set of airline employees should be consistent with that given to those who suffered unexpected unemployment at some earlier point.
Whether it was Compass One or Two, or Impulse, or the numerous small outfits that have gone under during these last few years!
In reality the pilots and others who were enjoying the bigger salaries should be in a much better financial circumstance to weather the shock of unemployment. Thus Ansett pilots should be less stressed than a Regional or GA pilot who has lost his income.
If not, then perhaps it is a timely and sobering reminder to us all to reorder our fiscal arrangements and spending in preparation for that unwanted 'rainy day'!
And along the way we should be mindful of the hundreds of Wannabees that are broke and still striving to get a respectable paid flying job of any description.

I know its a hard time for many a fellow pilot out there, however lets try and keep the bitterness and vitriol to a minimum.
I never mentioned that Ansett pilots were OVERPAID, BUT HIGHLY PAID.
If you refer to my original post, I think you will find it was Casper who mentioned the term 'overpaid'.
ABGO, you seem to have understood my post better than most, and it is a shame that one cant post on this forum without the inevitable hecklers, who seem hell bent on personal insult rather than intelligent debate.
I will refrain from lowering myself to the level of these people who cant seem to help themselves when it comes to someone having a different opinion to themselves.
As far as 'delusions of grandeur' go:-
WHO ME??
OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!!!!!!!

Poor (now recently ‘ex’) AN barrrstards… When I see them prattling on here about how other airlines will ‘obviously’ select them over ‘lesser mortals’, because of their ‘experience’ and ‘excellent safety record’, I’m sadly reminded of another group of Australian pilots who took industrial action twelve years ago thinking that they were not replaceable and that their employers couldn’t do without them.

They were proven wrong because the employers were willing to take… anyone. Anyone who could fill a seat. And who were that ‘anyone’?

The first lot, along the twisting, pot-holed road that for most of them, led to some measure of success, learnt some very bitter lessons, mostly about what a small pond it was that they’d been the big fish in.

I suspect the current lot are going to learn some very similar, equally bitter lessons. But the senior ones among them will lack one extremely important thing the first wave of twelve years had going for them – a network of friends looking out for them, both professionally in finding jobs for them, and domestically, in helping them and their families settle into the sometimes very strange environments they found themselves in.

The senior one among this lot burned those bridges irreparably twelve years ago and by their behaviour in the years since. Some will find no doubt work in the industry, but they’ll remain forever what they’ve been these last twelve years – pariahs. Hopefully, all of the younger ones will also find meaningful work, and along the way, they might hear another, very different slant to the self-serving tales they’ve been fed these last twelve years of the ‘heroes’ who ‘saved’ Australian aviation – for twelve years.

In closing, is anyone else amazed to read the articles in the Australian Press only now giving ‘shock! horror!’ details of the gross errors Peter Abeles made in his ‘running’ of Ansett? Of his buying, without even consulting his operations or commercial managers, any and every aircraft he walked past at each airshow he visited? How this led to huge inefficiencies and excessive training costs – to the point where AN pilots only averaged 20 hours productive flying a month? (Which was propaganda anyway – a statistical sleight of hand – but we won’t go into that here.)

I seem to remember a group of ‘overpaid, lazy, fat-cat, nothing more than glorified bus drivers’ saying all those things very loudly and very clearly twelve years ago to that very same Press Corps – and being roundly ignored.

Capt Moonlight - I fail to see incorrect figures in my posting.
If you could mention exactly what I posted that was incorrect I may be able to make reference and support my argument.

Moonlight,just for the record the only figures I quoted were the wages of B747-400 Second Officers (upwards to about $120,000) which my nephew proudly tells me of (and good on him!) and also the fact that in a recent world airline safety survey Ansett Australia came in at number 2 - that Sir is a FACT.

Moonlight,if you could tell me why/where my info is second hand and also exactly which quote was incorrect it would be much appreciated.

[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: 1013 ]

And your memory, Spad, is correct. :cool:
Among those who ignored our advice, were Heather Ewitt (ABC), and Brad Norrington (SMH).

1013 as I do not like to air your dirty linen in public I have sent you a private message. I hope this sets you straight as you should broaden your blinkered vision and realise you mentioned more than two airlines in your reply

SPAD, you are my man!!! You are so correct, and as I have said on other posts before... its 12 years on, and we are out here to help, to help those that need the help. But 12 years ago, I (and we) had nothing, no one helped us, all anyone did that was then employed in an airline in Australia, was to hope daily for our mass demise.

But we went on, and a lot have prospered, and have after so many years become something other than little baby FOs. And this is what our hero freinds at AN seem to miss at times, they may think of ??????, and know that he wasnt a hero, but who cares, because old ?????? was just some stupid F/O.

Trouble is, like the heros keep saying, its 12 years on, and lots of those stupid F/Os (like me) are now vey senior captains in their airline (like me) and sitting on interview panels (like me)

:)

Many AN captains now being knocked on the head at the application stage by SQ.Is this the present deteriorating environment at play or others?

Also of interest,a colleague exAN just received a letter back from QF stating preferential & priority consideration.Read the last carefully.....consideration.The huge volume of interest was also mentioned,a consequential delay in processing.

The above are facts for the interest of the forum,I have not endorsed or supported any of the policies in question.So please direct vitriolic comments to the institutions and parties,not me!

A couple of thoughts on this thread.

First: there is a wealth of experience out here in the real world that can help any genuine applicants with good track records to find decent jobs. A thread on this theme would be good value. Since 1989 a lot of former Australian airline pilots crawled up very steep learning curves to fly all sorts of machines in all sorts of places and conditions. Many of those places involved weather and flying situations where being the world’s second best anything was no help. Being a skilful pilot with flexibility, confidence, reliability, commitment and good CRM were (and are!) the keys. So there is help out there for those who meet those qualifications and want a fresh start away from the blinkered incestuous cosseted aviation world in Australia. Others please don’t muddy the waters for the rest of us who have no other place to go and no years of good salaries at home to fall back on.

Second: as ex-AN pilots look around for work and wonder about fairness and equity, remember that out there in the boondocks are some guys who never did land quality airline jobs post 1989 because of a harshly applied BLACKLIST against those from a particular aviation union. Not quite ethnic cleansing of the ideologically unsound but close enough for a photo finish. Those guys deserve a fair go and remembrance that they haven’t had a fair go since 1989. Some regional drivers weren’t even part of the Dispute, just ordinary card-carrying union members who didn’t want to cross someone else’s picket line.

Having said all of the above let’s remember that competition creates jobs; it doesn’t destroy them. High costs (hence high ticket prices) pre AN’s crash meant that traffic growth was lower than it might have been. Lower costs in the future will mean more growth and more jobs in the long run. Yes it might be a long wait. Others have survived that wait and lived. Mow grass, tend a bar, drive a taxi. It’s been done.

Just remember while you’re building a (temporary) alternate profession that had the then (Hawke/Keating) pro-Ansett governments supported either Compass 1 or 2 to keep going even for a few weeks while alternate financing was arranged then genuine industry restructuring would have got underway much earlier and maybe, just maybe, we wouldn’t have the spectacle of our senior politicians running to Singapore hoping that SIA could tell us how to run an airline.

Safe flying wherever you end up.

Sherm

1013.
While basking in the glory of having a favourable vote from the Lower Eltham Presbetarian Mothers Club,(second safest airline in the lower Yarra valley), you might care to contemplate the fate of the following aircraft. AET, BZA, TVC, FNH, RMI, FNE, NEY. All ANSETT and all write offs, with considerable loss of life. You might also remember that in the first few weeks of the 747 operation ANSETT had a sucess ratio similar to that of the U-boat fleet in ww2. Lets not forget the various indiscretions such as the 727 fire and evac in Rocky ( or was it MKY) and the 767 with the gear protruding from the upper surfaces in MEL (or SYD) and then again the 146 that tried to take the top off a hill in Hamilton Island in late '89 or early 90. Need I go on.
In this new world where hopefully you will have to go ferreting for alternative employment overseas, you will find that there is a big wide world out there with many airlines that have a record equal or better than that of Ansett and the world's number one QANTAS. Indeed you may even discover that outside of the western Pac rim Ansett is virtually unknown. You will do yourself a big favour if you would get rid of your holier than thou attitude and pay a little less attention to your own publicity.
Then again if you are a hero, keep it up, as it will most assuredly secure your future, to everyone else's benefit.
ANSeTT was a sick puppy that should have been allowed to pass away 10/11 years ago. To prop it up now with public funding through government guarantees and the ANSETT tax levy on tickets of legitimate operators is an obscenity.

The Guzzler :cool:

Just thought I would clarify something from the original post.

AN pilots do not get priority of employment with QF. They will get priority when being scheduled to do the pysch/sim/interview etc.

After that they are in the pile with everyone else. It is still possible for the 500hr GA jock to beat a 10'000hr AN jet jockey to a job as a S/O with QF.

Have a nice day. See if this drags us back to the original topic instead of degenerating into another '89 thread!! :rolleyes:

I say again - overpaid!

Documents obtained by The Press show its workers were among the best rewarded in Australia. Its pilots cost $NZ91 million a year; Air NZ pilots flying the same routes and the same hours would have cost $58 million.
Particularly expensive were the company's Boeing 737 pilots – also the mainstay of the Ansett fleet. An Ansett Boeing 737 captain flying 70 hours a month (the industry norm) earned $NZ112,000 more than the New Zealand counterpart; an Ansett 767 captain earned $98,000 more, and a 747 captain $75,000 more. Over all, Ansett's fleet of 25 Boeing 737s cost the company 32 per cent more to fly than if Air NZ pilots had been in the cockpit.

So let me get this right...
If I am QF regional pilot, paying my taxes, and working ever harder. Then not only do I need to watch my money being squandered on KD services with 1 or 2 pax (into communities already being adequately serviced) but I also have to sit back and watch the pollies wheel and deal under the table with QF to "accomodate the employees of an Australian icon" to further diminish my already slim chances of a slot in mainline.
I feel the utmost sorrow for friends that arent working at the moment but after 3 layoffs due company insolvency, Im anxious to know where my assistance was!!

Casper

Your statistics do not tell the whole story.

A very senior Air NZ management capt who is a friend of mine even agrees that although we here in oz are paid more per annum the productivity is much greater. The 89 dispute allowed the company to implement a contract for all of those new employees whereby crews could do a lot more flying than Air NZ pilots are allowed too. He had a good look at this area & his final comment was ............."AN needs less pilots to meet the schedule / roster requirements than we do which makes pilot costs aprox the same for both companies"