Question for ATC people
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Question for ATC people
Couple of questions for Air Traffic Controllers in and around Sydney Airspace.
When cleared via a SID (Kamba 3, Glenfield 4 etc), does the readback requirement for the airborne report only need to consist of level passing and last assigned level ?
When given a radar SID, are the readback requirements about to change on the 8/8/02 ? It used to be ; Turning left/right, heading ***, passing ****, climbing to***. Is it now changing to ; passing ****, climbing to ****, turning left/right, heading ***. What is the reason for this ?
Also, when inbound to Sydney...say on the MARLN 4 Arrival. The requirement is to be at or below 9000 ft by WHALE which is 20nm Sydney. If we stay on the normal decent profile (3 in 1), this moves our descent point from 60nm to 53nm (if we were at 20,000ft) allowing us to clip the step. Is this a disadvantage to us later on in the approach as far as sequencing goes ? Are we better to descend at the normal 60nm and be where you expect us to be. I'm asking because the discussion in the flight deck the other day was that if we clip the step...in effect being higher than normal profile, it means we may lose our spot in the sequence, or ATC may give us extra track miles in order to lose the height.
Thanks
When cleared via a SID (Kamba 3, Glenfield 4 etc), does the readback requirement for the airborne report only need to consist of level passing and last assigned level ?
When given a radar SID, are the readback requirements about to change on the 8/8/02 ? It used to be ; Turning left/right, heading ***, passing ****, climbing to***. Is it now changing to ; passing ****, climbing to ****, turning left/right, heading ***. What is the reason for this ?
Also, when inbound to Sydney...say on the MARLN 4 Arrival. The requirement is to be at or below 9000 ft by WHALE which is 20nm Sydney. If we stay on the normal decent profile (3 in 1), this moves our descent point from 60nm to 53nm (if we were at 20,000ft) allowing us to clip the step. Is this a disadvantage to us later on in the approach as far as sequencing goes ? Are we better to descend at the normal 60nm and be where you expect us to be. I'm asking because the discussion in the flight deck the other day was that if we clip the step...in effect being higher than normal profile, it means we may lose our spot in the sequence, or ATC may give us extra track miles in order to lose the height.
Thanks
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Some moons ago when this and other read back requirements were under discussion this was one that got a mention but did not turn out the way that was tabled.
Whilst not directly aware of what brought about the new change/s it does follow some of the logic that was discussed in the past.
From what you say the call follows a logical sequence of....
..Where I am (alt passing)
..Where I am going (cleared Alt/FL)
..What I am doing (turning L/R etc)(if applicable)
There is still a gross misunderstanding of what needs to be read back. Some pilots are even taught to read back info that does not need to be. Airlines included.
As for the STAR, if it says not above 9000 at BLAH, then that is the requirement. In most cases it has nothing to do with steps but more to do with integration of arrivals and departures whilst maintaining a certain degree of safety assurance and reducing internal coordination. I doubt if it has much to do with sequencing, but SYD do do things a bit different at times. If you did that in the States you may well find yourself in the sinbin as a result and lose you place in the line. Where you start the descent is the pilots problem, just make the requirement in the STAR and you're an ace!
Happy to be corrected.
Whilst not directly aware of what brought about the new change/s it does follow some of the logic that was discussed in the past.
From what you say the call follows a logical sequence of....
..Where I am (alt passing)
..Where I am going (cleared Alt/FL)
..What I am doing (turning L/R etc)(if applicable)
There is still a gross misunderstanding of what needs to be read back. Some pilots are even taught to read back info that does not need to be. Airlines included.
As for the STAR, if it says not above 9000 at BLAH, then that is the requirement. In most cases it has nothing to do with steps but more to do with integration of arrivals and departures whilst maintaining a certain degree of safety assurance and reducing internal coordination. I doubt if it has much to do with sequencing, but SYD do do things a bit different at times. If you did that in the States you may well find yourself in the sinbin as a result and lose you place in the line. Where you start the descent is the pilots problem, just make the requirement in the STAR and you're an ace!
Happy to be corrected.
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Waldo
Why do you start your 3:1 descent at 53 miles out in order just to clip the bottom of the Star Restriction and then have to change your descent profile to almost 2:1 to make the airfield. (ie: 9000' in 20 miles)
Not having a go, just curious as it would seem to make more sense to maintain a constant pofile wherever possible.
Why do you start your 3:1 descent at 53 miles out in order just to clip the bottom of the Star Restriction and then have to change your descent profile to almost 2:1 to make the airfield. (ie: 9000' in 20 miles)
Not having a go, just curious as it would seem to make more sense to maintain a constant pofile wherever possible.
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Square bear, I normally do a 3 in 1 profile, however, Sydney being different t everywhere else, you never fly straight to the airfield. There's this notion that you have to fly a downwind, base then final at Sydney. I see no reason to race down to 6000 ft, then stay there for another 6-7 minutes waiting to be given lower. In Melbourne, where the STAR's line you up on base/final, a constant rate works fine.
Any ideas why at Sydney, we fly a circuit ? Sometimes, especially if you are on the MARLN arrival, and rwy 34 is in use, it's a near 120 deg turn to get on downwind. Just sounds a bit innefficient to me. Why can't the STARS be re-designed ?
Any ideas why at Sydney, we fly a circuit ? Sometimes, especially if you are on the MARLN arrival, and rwy 34 is in use, it's a near 120 deg turn to get on downwind. Just sounds a bit innefficient to me. Why can't the STARS be re-designed ?
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Waldo
The curcuit stuff is for NOISE abatement and intergration with LTOP procedures... Nothing to do with ATC but everyhting to do with suits in CB and SY.
The solution is STARS that are runway specific, gives you a track to the threshold... just like Melbourne... Calculations are easy. This is under development, QFA are assisting a trial in certain aircraft for 34 configaration at the moment, MARLN trial procedure Arrival...
The requirements are designed for every possible runway and therefore departure/arrival mode possible, they try to capture all cross overs with a unders/over overs/under regime. As runways always change under noise sharing and wind requirements, you need to remove flexibility, to ensure system safety and reduction of internal coordination which is very high as it is, for every TX on air I do/get 2 calls to my fellow controllers.
As for loosing your spot, shouldn't be an issue as you are effectively locked in by 45 SY If you depart from outside of 30 minutes SY you should be locked in 25 minutes before 45SY...
Changes to sequence do happen inside 45 miles (to accomodate go round, someone really slow etc.), but you wouldn't really notice; well not that much 2 minutes max.
Get the polies out of it, you'll get a better system... They set the rules then we make them work; like that would happen...
Taco
The curcuit stuff is for NOISE abatement and intergration with LTOP procedures... Nothing to do with ATC but everyhting to do with suits in CB and SY.
The solution is STARS that are runway specific, gives you a track to the threshold... just like Melbourne... Calculations are easy. This is under development, QFA are assisting a trial in certain aircraft for 34 configaration at the moment, MARLN trial procedure Arrival...
The requirements are designed for every possible runway and therefore departure/arrival mode possible, they try to capture all cross overs with a unders/over overs/under regime. As runways always change under noise sharing and wind requirements, you need to remove flexibility, to ensure system safety and reduction of internal coordination which is very high as it is, for every TX on air I do/get 2 calls to my fellow controllers.
As for loosing your spot, shouldn't be an issue as you are effectively locked in by 45 SY If you depart from outside of 30 minutes SY you should be locked in 25 minutes before 45SY...
Changes to sequence do happen inside 45 miles (to accomodate go round, someone really slow etc.), but you wouldn't really notice; well not that much 2 minutes max.
Get the polies out of it, you'll get a better system... They set the rules then we make them work; like that would happen...
Taco
