A suggestion to those working in Airlines.
Thread Starter
A suggestion to those working in Airlines.
Do you work for Airline A or Airline B. The fact is, with either you have a great job (think about where you've come from!, remember GA)) Wannabes want to work for A or B, or anyone else who will employ them for that matter. Some are quite experienced, possibly more experienced than you. Yet, for the most part they get on with the job.
The pettiness and bitching here is unbelievable. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE ROSES PEOPLE!!!!! Line drivers of any company are not responsible for management decisions, PR campaigns or any of the other multitude of whinges being brought up on this forum. Act like the Professionals you are supposed to be. Commercial competition is a reality, as is the Australian tall poppy syndrome. GET OVER IT.
No matter who you work for , the divisiveness played out in the forums on this topic reflects poorly on all of us, both as professionals and as people. Appreciate what you have, and TRY and be NICE (I know that word is an anathema to some here) to each other. We all fly cause its the best job around, and beats working for a living! Remember that, and lets try and get away from the 'they're doing this and thats not fair' stuff. Wishing other harm usually backfires in the long run.
PS : if this bores you or offends you, it is probably directed at you
The pettiness and bitching here is unbelievable. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE ROSES PEOPLE!!!!! Line drivers of any company are not responsible for management decisions, PR campaigns or any of the other multitude of whinges being brought up on this forum. Act like the Professionals you are supposed to be. Commercial competition is a reality, as is the Australian tall poppy syndrome. GET OVER IT.
No matter who you work for , the divisiveness played out in the forums on this topic reflects poorly on all of us, both as professionals and as people. Appreciate what you have, and TRY and be NICE (I know that word is an anathema to some here) to each other. We all fly cause its the best job around, and beats working for a living! Remember that, and lets try and get away from the 'they're doing this and thats not fair' stuff. Wishing other harm usually backfires in the long run.
PS : if this bores you or offends you, it is probably directed at you
Join Date: Jun 2002
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well said clear to land!
Pprune has turned into a bitching session. Seems a shame since we all work in the same industry.
Might be because a few people have been burnt in GA and are glad to get out.
Think these posts are bitchy? Try the chat room!
Pprune has turned into a bitching session. Seems a shame since we all work in the same industry.
Might be because a few people have been burnt in GA and are glad to get out.
Think these posts are bitchy? Try the chat room!
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Naivety,
Post here in 10 years time and I'll bet you, you'll not write such drivel. Best job in the world -- YES. But at great financial , family and social cost. We have every reason to be uptight.
Post here in 10 years time and I'll bet you, you'll not write such drivel. Best job in the world -- YES. But at great financial , family and social cost. We have every reason to be uptight.
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Clear to land - totally agree !!!
I came from another industry that worked you to the bone & expected you to "do it for the company,that's how it works in our industry".
I have worked in the Airline industry for a reletively short 2 yrs & have found that you only get out of it what you put in.
I agree with ellion to a point, yes, it can be a strain on the family and social side. But financial ? I disagree. I' ve never been paid better in my life.
We all have choices in life. If you've become that bitter and twisted, move on.
hmm...Agree. I'm only new to pprune & I can't believe most of the people that post on these sites are from within the industry. Half the stuff written is just to get a bite, but I find it very counter productive.
Negativity breeds negativity.
I'll just go and put my Soap box back under the stairs where I got it from.
I came from another industry that worked you to the bone & expected you to "do it for the company,that's how it works in our industry".
I have worked in the Airline industry for a reletively short 2 yrs & have found that you only get out of it what you put in.
I agree with ellion to a point, yes, it can be a strain on the family and social side. But financial ? I disagree. I' ve never been paid better in my life.
We all have choices in life. If you've become that bitter and twisted, move on.
hmm...Agree. I'm only new to pprune & I can't believe most of the people that post on these sites are from within the industry. Half the stuff written is just to get a bite, but I find it very counter productive.
Negativity breeds negativity.
I'll just go and put my Soap box back under the stairs where I got it from.
Well said mate,
It doesnt seem to take much for these forums to degenerate into a kindergarden brawl, however there are people out there that know this all too well and are quick to set it off..
It is unfortunate that due to being ripped off, passed over, pushed aside or just plain unlucky, there is quite a lot of bitterness out there. Any competitive industry is bound to suffer from that.
But if hearing of someones success brings you so much pain, or someoness unfortunate situation brings a smile to your face, I think you have a lot more to worry about than finding a job.
It doesnt seem to take much for these forums to degenerate into a kindergarden brawl, however there are people out there that know this all too well and are quick to set it off..
It is unfortunate that due to being ripped off, passed over, pushed aside or just plain unlucky, there is quite a lot of bitterness out there. Any competitive industry is bound to suffer from that.
But if hearing of someones success brings you so much pain, or someoness unfortunate situation brings a smile to your face, I think you have a lot more to worry about than finding a job.
.
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Those of you who are new to the industry or still on the way up will no doubt view it differently from those who have been in it for many years. Sure many of us are getting paid well and we do have some reasonable conditions, and arguably it can be a good job. Not when you are doing an allnighter via colombo though. What really P****s most older guys off is the ever decreasing conditions in our industry. I have found over time that it is not the guys that are getting paid the least that make the most noise, it is the guys that have had the most taken away. You can argue till you're blue in the face as to whether this is right or not, but i can tell you it is human nature. Just wait untill any of you set yourselves up in a nice house, kids in good school, reasonable roster, then someone with the stroke of a pen says, "sorry you've just lost your housing allowance" or education allowance, or we are now taxing the bejeezus out of you. I can assure you, you wont shrug your shoulders and say "that's OK, it's still a great job". There comes a time for all of us when flying is no longer a job, it is a life support system for your family and your only chance of saving for a good retirement. So believe me when i say that most of you will probably complain long and load when your contract is continually eroded. By the way. For all you wannabes who just think the old established guys are just a bunch of whingers, take time to think about what i have said, and try and imagine how bad conditions are going to be when you a "arrive".
Aviation is a service industry, and like all of them, rises and falls with changes to the economy, and is subject to the cruel forces of competition.
The problem for aviation is that there will always be someone who reckons they can do it cheaper - not necessarily better or safer! It's the same in many industries.
I'm in agriculture, and offer a service to farmers. When I started over 25 years ago, there were 2 of us in the state. Now I have over 80 direct competitors, but the farming population is 33% less. But we do well, and have never cut prices. In fact, I've raised them as the competitoprs increased. Interestingly, farmers see that as an indicator of confidence in your abilities and service, and a proportion of them will always support this.
I think it is all a part of the great Aussie 'tall poppy syndrome'. Most newstarts in service industries take the price 'undercutting' approach. Why - it's easier than offering a better product. Given that the 'newstart' didn't think of the original service, it's understandable that they don't have the brains to think of a better service - only a cheaper version of the existing service.
This is why you are paid less,generally, by the cut price merchant, and why, eventually, the original company will feel the pinch, and either cut staff and/or conditions and pay. It's understandable that the innovators and originators of our society feel bitter about the cut-price merchant who's probably only in it for the short haul.
It's very obvious that people change jobs within an industry more often than before. Why not become multi-skilled so that you can move from industry to industry? It's not inconceivable that the majority of flying instructors and charter pilots in GA could one day be part-timers.
Just a few thoughts,
cheers,
The problem for aviation is that there will always be someone who reckons they can do it cheaper - not necessarily better or safer! It's the same in many industries.
I'm in agriculture, and offer a service to farmers. When I started over 25 years ago, there were 2 of us in the state. Now I have over 80 direct competitors, but the farming population is 33% less. But we do well, and have never cut prices. In fact, I've raised them as the competitoprs increased. Interestingly, farmers see that as an indicator of confidence in your abilities and service, and a proportion of them will always support this.
I think it is all a part of the great Aussie 'tall poppy syndrome'. Most newstarts in service industries take the price 'undercutting' approach. Why - it's easier than offering a better product. Given that the 'newstart' didn't think of the original service, it's understandable that they don't have the brains to think of a better service - only a cheaper version of the existing service.
This is why you are paid less,generally, by the cut price merchant, and why, eventually, the original company will feel the pinch, and either cut staff and/or conditions and pay. It's understandable that the innovators and originators of our society feel bitter about the cut-price merchant who's probably only in it for the short haul.
It's very obvious that people change jobs within an industry more often than before. Why not become multi-skilled so that you can move from industry to industry? It's not inconceivable that the majority of flying instructors and charter pilots in GA could one day be part-timers.
Just a few thoughts,
cheers,
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Many years ago, I remember a guy named Tony Fitzsimons, who wasthen president of theAFAP saying something like'
"All these young wannabees talk like idealists. Beforethey get an airline job, they talk about what they'd be prepared to do, and would never whinge again about pay, conditions, etc. When they get into an airline, they're euphoric, and would do anything for the boss, but in a year or so, they're industrially savvy, and aren't prepared to be treated the same way - and why should they?'
I'm sure some will ask 'Tony who?' Well, he was loud, bombastic, arrogant, but mostly he talked a fair bit of sense.
I don't think there are too many who wish ill will on their fellows, and if there are, then they have other problems, but everyone is entitled to voice criticism on the boss. Just because you work for him doesn't mean he's always right.
Something I've found over the yearss is that the more you give and the more they get away with, the more they ask of you. And this is particularly true of management's dealings wit pilots. They generally leave the FAs and TWU etc alone because when you mix lower IQs and radical union representation, then you have a volatile combination, and the capacity to disable the airline.
Pilots, generally, just want to get on with the job, and do it as professionally as they can.
"All these young wannabees talk like idealists. Beforethey get an airline job, they talk about what they'd be prepared to do, and would never whinge again about pay, conditions, etc. When they get into an airline, they're euphoric, and would do anything for the boss, but in a year or so, they're industrially savvy, and aren't prepared to be treated the same way - and why should they?'
I'm sure some will ask 'Tony who?' Well, he was loud, bombastic, arrogant, but mostly he talked a fair bit of sense.
I don't think there are too many who wish ill will on their fellows, and if there are, then they have other problems, but everyone is entitled to voice criticism on the boss. Just because you work for him doesn't mean he's always right.
Something I've found over the yearss is that the more you give and the more they get away with, the more they ask of you. And this is particularly true of management's dealings wit pilots. They generally leave the FAs and TWU etc alone because when you mix lower IQs and radical union representation, then you have a volatile combination, and the capacity to disable the airline.
Pilots, generally, just want to get on with the job, and do it as professionally as they can.
Pay and conditions will forever be under attack, not just in the airlines, but all public companies. Unfortunately, in a public company, employees seem to be a "necessary evil" in the course of generating profit, share price increases, and shareholder dividends. With each turn of the financial calendar, each of these factors must be improved in order to appease the shareholders. This means that costs must be reduced and efficiencies generated - using more fuel efficient aircraft, more seats, crappier meals, and denuded pay and conditions for employees with each hiring cycle.
Unless the raison detre of public companies is changed, this degradation cannot be avoided. The halcyon days it seems, are well and truly over. Unless of course, somebody starts a private airline, and is happy with making a consistent % profit every year. I don't think that's likely to happen.
Unless the raison detre of public companies is changed, this degradation cannot be avoided. The halcyon days it seems, are well and truly over. Unless of course, somebody starts a private airline, and is happy with making a consistent % profit every year. I don't think that's likely to happen.
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Pay and conditions will only be eroded for as long as people who claim to be professionals devalue their skills. The problem lies within the profession, don't look to blame shareholders etc.
Whispering "T" Jet
Supply & Demand
Pay and conditions will only be eroded for as long as people who claim to be professionals devalue their skills.
Once supply exceeds demand the cost of that commodity falls. Makes no difference if that commodity is fruit or pilots.
