2 Aircraft Collide @ Darwin
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Hand swung a Navajo once. (With assistance, of course.....) Took some effort......... Navajo has impulse coupling, so not toooo bad to do. Chieftain has shower of sparks, so yes someone has to hold starter button down. Brave........ But if you can hand swing a bonanza, you can start a navajo, less compression etc. in the navajo........
I wonder how long the starter had been u/s? Was it noted in the maintenance release? If not, why not? Why was it not fixed when the defect was first noted? Trying to save on servicing costs no doubt? If the battery was shot then a new one should have been fitted.
GA never ever changes, does it? Always someone cutting corners and risking lives. This one was a really close shave for the poor kids.
And all these stories about handstarting Barons, Chieftains etc.
According to CASA if the starter is inoperative then the aircraft is un-airworthy until the defect is rectified. For damned good reason, too. They are not designed to be started by hand because simply it is too dangerous. It is not cool, macho etc to hand start these types - it is plain stoopid!
GA never ever changes, does it? Always someone cutting corners and risking lives. This one was a really close shave for the poor kids.
And all these stories about handstarting Barons, Chieftains etc.
According to CASA if the starter is inoperative then the aircraft is un-airworthy until the defect is rectified. For damned good reason, too. They are not designed to be started by hand because simply it is too dangerous. It is not cool, macho etc to hand start these types - it is plain stoopid!
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Thanks Icarus,
Once again I can rely on you to state the bleeding obvious.
Let me type slowly and deliberately so that you can correctly comprehend. My response above did not refer to those type of aircraft, ie Tiger Moths and the like which from their inception required hand starting. Yes I am in no doubt that the few schools / charter organisations that have such aircraft on their AOCs have an approved procedure.
Once again I can rely on you to state the bleeding obvious.
Let me type slowly and deliberately so that you can correctly comprehend. My response above did not refer to those type of aircraft, ie Tiger Moths and the like which from their inception required hand starting. Yes I am in no doubt that the few schools / charter organisations that have such aircraft on their AOCs have an approved procedure.
Last edited by Islander Jock; 18th Jul 2002 at 00:21.
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Centaurus you paint a pretty bleak picture there of GA. My guess is that some idiot left the master switch on. It's one of those stoooooopid things most pilots are guilty of doing occasionally, and the reason we keep spare batteries fully charged.
At home base it's just annoying, but out in the bush it could be a lot more incovenient.
Which is why I disagree with those who think PPLs should learn checklists off by heart. IT's always the ones who say "I don't need a checklist I can remember all the checks" who leave radios on, control locks neatly tucked into the seat pockets, master switch on etc.
As for hand swinging, it's totally banned in my ops manual. No way jose.
At home base it's just annoying, but out in the bush it could be a lot more incovenient.
Which is why I disagree with those who think PPLs should learn checklists off by heart. IT's always the ones who say "I don't need a checklist I can remember all the checks" who leave radios on, control locks neatly tucked into the seat pockets, master switch on etc.
As for hand swinging, it's totally banned in my ops manual. No way jose.
Again with the insults.
On re-reading your post Jock I see you mention Insurance and the Day VFR syllabus. That seems to be the thrust of it?
Well the same issues apply to Tiger Moth etc. Am I typing slow enough? So if it is not an issue for them it should not be an issue for a C172.
Widen your perspective. A private owner does not have, need or want an operations manual. Hand swinging is hand swinging.
Well the same issues apply to Tiger Moth etc. Am I typing slow enough? So if it is not an issue for them it should not be an issue for a C172.
Widen your perspective. A private owner does not have, need or want an operations manual. Hand swinging is hand swinging.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Icarus,
I was not referring to pvt owners and what they do. Rather to why it is not taught by flying schools.
Hypothetical:
Prosecutor: "Why did you hand swing the propeller?"
Pilot: "Because the starter motor was unserviceable"
Prosecutor: "What training have you had in this procedure?"
Pilot: "My instructor Icarus showed me how to do it.
Prosecutor: "But didn't all the planes you leant to fly in have starter motors and if they were not functioning surely the aircraft was required to have been grounded until repairs were made?"
Pilot: "err umm. maybe but don't call me Shirley"
I'm not saying it can't be done and depending on the aircraft type, with relative safety. But unfortunately in todays litigeous minfield things like this will come back and bite you when things go wrong and if it shouldn't have been done in the first place, things have a higher likelihood of going wrong.
I was not referring to pvt owners and what they do. Rather to why it is not taught by flying schools.
Hypothetical:
Prosecutor: "Why did you hand swing the propeller?"
Pilot: "Because the starter motor was unserviceable"
Prosecutor: "What training have you had in this procedure?"
Pilot: "My instructor Icarus showed me how to do it.
Prosecutor: "But didn't all the planes you leant to fly in have starter motors and if they were not functioning surely the aircraft was required to have been grounded until repairs were made?"
Pilot: "err umm. maybe but don't call me Shirley"
I'm not saying it can't be done and depending on the aircraft type, with relative safety. But unfortunately in todays litigeous minfield things like this will come back and bite you when things go wrong and if it shouldn't have been done in the first place, things have a higher likelihood of going wrong.
Last edited by Islander Jock; 18th Jul 2002 at 01:32.
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I guess it leads to the question does a flat battery/start motor what ever, require an MEL/PUS.
I would say that it does.
If it did, then if found acceptable by the CASA owner/operator then there would have be a procedure attached to that MEL/PUS.
Unfortutarley or fortunately depending on which side of the fence you sit, times are a changing!
Do many schools have MEL's?
If not why not?
I would say that it does.
If it did, then if found acceptable by the CASA owner/operator then there would have be a procedure attached to that MEL/PUS.
Unfortutarley or fortunately depending on which side of the fence you sit, times are a changing!
Do many schools have MEL's?
If not why not?
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After seeing those photos, it just has to be said.
Thank God for the Salvos or should the Salvos be thanking God everyone got out unscathed. What a mess.
Strewth - I'm very concerned about the school you went to. It sounds like they didn't even teach you the basics. Hadn't heard of chocks??? All aircraft should be chocked if there are no tying down facilities even if you are leaving your aircraft for a short time. Chocks or tie downs should be carried (safely stowed, of course) to all the airports you are travelling to. As for prop swinging, our students were taught why it was done, how dangerous it was and why it was recommended not to do it.
Thank God for the Salvos or should the Salvos be thanking God everyone got out unscathed. What a mess.
Strewth - I'm very concerned about the school you went to. It sounds like they didn't even teach you the basics. Hadn't heard of chocks??? All aircraft should be chocked if there are no tying down facilities even if you are leaving your aircraft for a short time. Chocks or tie downs should be carried (safely stowed, of course) to all the airports you are travelling to. As for prop swinging, our students were taught why it was done, how dangerous it was and why it was recommended not to do it.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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T,
Not sure how whether to say "thanks for the compliment" or "I would never sink that low"
I tend to lean to the latter.
Not sure how whether to say "thanks for the compliment" or "I would never sink that low"
I tend to lean to the latter.
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skychaser, don't worry about them or me too much. Although we didn't use chocks, the aircraft were NEVER left untied. An instructor and engineers did go over the process of handstarts, the reasons why, other considerations, and we all were given a go at handstarting a 152 if we wanted to.
The point is that this seems to be an exception from the rule. I've met heaps of pilots here in Darwin over the last two years, almost all of whom had only just finished flight training, almost all of which have had little or no training in this respect. Since I've started working, and especially since this accident, even more pilots have been pointing out the lack of training they have recieved.
Incidentaly, I couldn't find any mention in the VFR Day syllabus, though it was mentioned in the National Competency Standards.
For both PPL & CPL, "Aircraft started manually as required"
Very comprehensive I would say.
The point is that this seems to be an exception from the rule. I've met heaps of pilots here in Darwin over the last two years, almost all of whom had only just finished flight training, almost all of which have had little or no training in this respect. Since I've started working, and especially since this accident, even more pilots have been pointing out the lack of training they have recieved.
Incidentaly, I couldn't find any mention in the VFR Day syllabus, though it was mentioned in the National Competency Standards.
For both PPL & CPL, "Aircraft started manually as required"
Very comprehensive I would say.
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MELs
airbrake, you ask if schools have MELs and if not why not.
Firstly MELs are only required for charter.
Secondly, the cost of setting up an MEL is prohibitive by the time you have paid to get it done, or taken the time to do it yourself; and then paid for CASA to approve it.
So most of us make do with the POH and CAO 20.18, and if we have charter aircraft, make sure everything works!
Firstly MELs are only required for charter.
Secondly, the cost of setting up an MEL is prohibitive by the time you have paid to get it done, or taken the time to do it yourself; and then paid for CASA to approve it.
So most of us make do with the POH and CAO 20.18, and if we have charter aircraft, make sure everything works!
Have seen a number of aircraft being started by prop swings over the years, including a Cessna 310 & an Aerocommander.
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Older aircraft ie DH82, Auster etc, the compression comes up at a convenient point. They were designed to be started that way. They had a laid down procedure. It doesn't matter that much if you are behind or in front of the prop. More impotant is to be comfortable and not leaning into it.
Very importantly, communication between cockpit and prop swinger ie communication between all participants has to be 100%, and the procedure known and understood. That virtually (to my mind) precludes most multi engine aircraft at the minimum.
Very importantly, communication between cockpit and prop swinger ie communication between all participants has to be 100%, and the procedure known and understood. That virtually (to my mind) precludes most multi engine aircraft at the minimum.
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BIK,
Yerranderie's a top spot! Did some training out there on that "camel hump" strip in a baby taildragger. The trees and hill nearby, animals & gradient changes from either end make it an interesting spot for a newby to bush strips!
(oops ... not on subject of hand swinging props .... never mind)
Yerranderie's a top spot! Did some training out there on that "camel hump" strip in a baby taildragger. The trees and hill nearby, animals & gradient changes from either end make it an interesting spot for a newby to bush strips!
(oops ... not on subject of hand swinging props .... never mind)
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more gravy?
I couldn't agree more... Friends don't let friends hand swing an engine. Or wear speedos. Never let anyone tell you it is ok to grab a handful of prop and give it a whirl. Let me tell you my own sad tale and you will never go near the prop again.
My pappy tot me how to swing a prop back when I was still in my nappy. It's how he did it, and his pappy afore him, and his pappy afore him. And his pappy afore him too. It's how I was brung up.
You don't need no chocks. You don't need no brakes. Why until I lost my left hand I was cranking twin-row radials like there was no tomorruh. And a coupla times there nearly werent. Can't tell yuzz how many times that prop done whacked me on the head when i didnt get out the way near kwik enuff. Lucky for me my steel plate held up.
So that's why the proper training is required. It's not his fault, it's Hollywood and society that got them in the poo up in NT. A natural up-bringing in it like I had is essential to the succesful hand-cranker. Anyone who hasn't hand-swug a prop is a flouncing poonce.
My pappy tot me how to swing a prop back when I was still in my nappy. It's how he did it, and his pappy afore him, and his pappy afore him. And his pappy afore him too. It's how I was brung up.
You don't need no chocks. You don't need no brakes. Why until I lost my left hand I was cranking twin-row radials like there was no tomorruh. And a coupla times there nearly werent. Can't tell yuzz how many times that prop done whacked me on the head when i didnt get out the way near kwik enuff. Lucky for me my steel plate held up.
So that's why the proper training is required. It's not his fault, it's Hollywood and society that got them in the poo up in NT. A natural up-bringing in it like I had is essential to the succesful hand-cranker. Anyone who hasn't hand-swug a prop is a flouncing poonce.