To the Wally at Bankstown
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To the Wally at Bankstown
To the wally who did a 180 on finals for 11R whilst I was on finals for 11L a few weeks ago. I hope you have either taken some more dual lessons or learnt another hobbie. What you did was not only stupid, but very very dangerous, to me. I dont like being in that kind of danger, and luckily for you I had enough airspace underneath me to descend to allow you over my head a short distance away...
I know what school you are from and I hope that you have been dealt with accordingly.
Ahh... that feels better.
Dog
I know what school you are from and I hope that you have been dealt with accordingly.
Ahh... that feels better.
Dog
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Oh Dear!
Dog,
I bet ATC were sweatin' !
Lucky that he / she left you enough space to avoid the inevitable!
I guess I'll cancel my booked session of CTS at BK then... too bl*&^#%dy dangerous.
I bet ATC were sweatin' !
Lucky that he / she left you enough space to avoid the inevitable!
I guess I'll cancel my booked session of CTS at BK then... too bl*&^#%dy dangerous.
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Kez,
This was pre mid air....
However, after the request "Who was that aircraft that did a 180"
I got... "Which aircraft? I did not see it"..
Poor bugguh in the tower was swept up in the fact the said wally was not answering his calls.
Still, much safer to fly at bankstown than to drive there...
Dog
This was pre mid air....
However, after the request "Who was that aircraft that did a 180"
I got... "Which aircraft? I did not see it"..
Poor bugguh in the tower was swept up in the fact the said wally was not answering his calls.
Still, much safer to fly at bankstown than to drive there...
Dog
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Welcome to flying training
Things don't change much at BK 
I remember a certain stude in a PARO at the place I was working waybackwhen catching up on his preceding traffic on 11C.....
TWR asked him to slow down. Instead, he said "No wurries, I'll just do an orbit".
The resulting numerous evasive actions from pilots on the other runways was both amusing and reasssuring from where I was standing. GAAP procedures at their best!
Of course, It was me who picked up the phone when the tower called.....
Dogimed. Relax....we were all students once
I remember a certain stude in a PARO at the place I was working waybackwhen catching up on his preceding traffic on 11C.....
TWR asked him to slow down. Instead, he said "No wurries, I'll just do an orbit".
The resulting numerous evasive actions from pilots on the other runways was both amusing and reasssuring from where I was standing. GAAP procedures at their best!
Of course, It was me who picked up the phone when the tower called.....
Dogimed. Relax....we were all students once
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Doggy ...
Safer because you wont get stabbed or mugged whilst flying. Lucky it was not during bank run arrivals. He must have also cut off the approach to 11C
Did the tower finally identify the aircraft?
Safer because you wont get stabbed or mugged whilst flying. Lucky it was not during bank run arrivals. He must have also cut off the approach to 11C
Did the tower finally identify the aircraft?
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Just an observation and recollection. I remember many, many years ago with about 500 hours, flying a Bonanza, or some other retractable single, and I was asked by ATC to do an orbit on finals for sequencing with a jet on finals for the intersecting runway. I had the gear and flaps down and started the turn. By halfway round, the stall warning was squeaking, the throttle was almost through the firewall and I was rolling off bank to get some speed and altitude back and wondering how I was going to get onto finals again. It might seem an easy maneauver at first to a low hour pilot, but a low level orbit on final can be very demanding with rapidly diminishing options.
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Yeap, Orbits on final are dangerous for a number of reasons:-
1. If pilot initiated, and ATC don’t know about it, we may not be looking for the traffic you will hit behind and therefore traffic alerts are even less likely.
2. In a parallel runway environment it means another intercept of centreline (Normally low and slow when cockpit workload is high and outside scans are less possible.).
3. Following traffic is concentrating on the threshold and perhaps not looking out to the side from where “Huey” is approaching.
4. Helicopter movements at BK are quite often perpendicular to fixed wing moves therefore a meeting with one is heightened by turns close in.
If the traffic disposition is such that an orbit may be offered or approved by ATC instead of a full circuit then perhaps it is because ATC are aware that there is no conflicting traffic for the orbit.
At the end of the day:-
Don’t do it unless it is approved by ATC, only do it if you are set up for it, and if your not, tell us and we will make other arrangements.
The onus is on the Pilot in command to make the call on what is achievable or not..
It is a while since I worked there, but some things never change.
HAVE EYES IN THE BACK OF YOUR HEADS AT ALL TIMES!!!
1. If pilot initiated, and ATC don’t know about it, we may not be looking for the traffic you will hit behind and therefore traffic alerts are even less likely.
2. In a parallel runway environment it means another intercept of centreline (Normally low and slow when cockpit workload is high and outside scans are less possible.).
3. Following traffic is concentrating on the threshold and perhaps not looking out to the side from where “Huey” is approaching.
4. Helicopter movements at BK are quite often perpendicular to fixed wing moves therefore a meeting with one is heightened by turns close in.
If the traffic disposition is such that an orbit may be offered or approved by ATC instead of a full circuit then perhaps it is because ATC are aware that there is no conflicting traffic for the orbit.
At the end of the day:-
Don’t do it unless it is approved by ATC, only do it if you are set up for it, and if your not, tell us and we will make other arrangements.
The onus is on the Pilot in command to make the call on what is achievable or not..
It is a while since I worked there, but some things never change.
HAVE EYES IN THE BACK OF YOUR HEADS AT ALL TIMES!!!
Dog,
Did you report this to the ATSB or CASA?
Why not ID the company?
Capcom,
Could you restate the intent of your point number 4? I dont understand what you are trying to say here.
All in all, I guess we have to remember (AGAIN) that a good lookout is absolutely vital. Glad no one was hurt and we can all learn the lesson again.
Did you report this to the ATSB or CASA?
Why not ID the company?
Capcom,
Could you restate the intent of your point number 4? I dont understand what you are trying to say here.
All in all, I guess we have to remember (AGAIN) that a good lookout is absolutely vital. Glad no one was hurt and we can all learn the lesson again.
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G’day HelmetFire (Had a few of those over the years.. ),
No probs!
The Helo’s at BK (unless it has changes since I was there) track out of and into the Helo circuit via the 3 Chopper routes, “Choppers South, North and West”.
North and West are a race track type arrangement depending on the runways in use ie.
11 in use:- In via Cwest out via Cnorth
29 in use:- In via Cnorth out via Cwest
Once in the Helo circuit the pilots often fly a base leg in a position that could get real close to someone conducting an orbit on final. Ie 11 in use Helo on left base for the western pad, "Huey" on final for 11L in the PA28 then orbits left.
Result = Nose to Nose Low and CLOSE. 
On the subject of Helo’s!..
One to really watch at BK is the CSouth track as they cross the runway complex mid field at 500ft, just about the perfect intercept altitude for a fixed wing Go-round. If you need a go-round, tell the tower early for traffic purposes and most importantly look left and right for Helo’s crossing.
Regards
Cap.
),No probs!
The Helo’s at BK (unless it has changes since I was there) track out of and into the Helo circuit via the 3 Chopper routes, “Choppers South, North and West”.
North and West are a race track type arrangement depending on the runways in use ie.
11 in use:- In via Cwest out via Cnorth
29 in use:- In via Cnorth out via Cwest
Once in the Helo circuit the pilots often fly a base leg in a position that could get real close to someone conducting an orbit on final. Ie 11 in use Helo on left base for the western pad, "Huey" on final for 11L in the PA28 then orbits left.
Result = Nose to Nose Low and CLOSE.
On the subject of Helo’s!..
One to really watch at BK is the CSouth track as they cross the runway complex mid field at 500ft, just about the perfect intercept altitude for a fixed wing Go-round. If you need a go-round, tell the tower early for traffic purposes and most importantly look left and right for Helo’s crossing.
Regards
Cap.
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No *I* did not report it . I guess it is up to the instructor. If he doesn't, why should I go over his head. I have to have faith that he will do the right thing...
What purpose would it serve to ID the company?
Dog
What purpose would it serve to ID the company?
Dog
Capcom,
Gottcha with the helo biz - thanks. As to helmet fires - I have had way too many..............
Dog,
I did not see any reference that the "wally" was a student, just that the pilot was flying an aircraft with a school's markings. The reason I ask about the ATSB report is has two answers based on your response:
Firstly: If you report it , hopefully questions will be asked and the school on question notified of the occurrence. How do you know the school even knows about the incident just because it happened in one of their aircraft? Reporting it may let the Chief Pilot know for the first time. Bringing out knowledge of the occurrence is the only way they can then address it and ensure that the "wally" is taught to properly handle such incidents: IE use the radio, etc. If it goes unreported, perhaps old "wally" will remain oblivious to the issue and do it again.
Secondly: I would gently urge you to ignore any notion that reporting such incidents is "going over the head" of your instructor (and later your captain, boss, owner, or whatever). Each individual is responsible for reporting such issues, and in fulfilling this responsibility it is impossible to go over anyone's head. I realise this is perhaps contrary to what you may have been taught, but our reporting system is only as effective in catching incidents and educating the "wally's" as we are in accurately reporting them.
Also, why name the company? So we can all have a good laugh, backstab, fingerpoint, and say "tch tch", whilst being glad that THIS time it wasn't us!! After all, this IS a rumour network. No fun if you dont tell us the juicy bits is it?
Gottcha with the helo biz - thanks. As to helmet fires - I have had way too many..............
Dog,
I did not see any reference that the "wally" was a student, just that the pilot was flying an aircraft with a school's markings. The reason I ask about the ATSB report is has two answers based on your response:
Firstly: If you report it , hopefully questions will be asked and the school on question notified of the occurrence. How do you know the school even knows about the incident just because it happened in one of their aircraft? Reporting it may let the Chief Pilot know for the first time. Bringing out knowledge of the occurrence is the only way they can then address it and ensure that the "wally" is taught to properly handle such incidents: IE use the radio, etc. If it goes unreported, perhaps old "wally" will remain oblivious to the issue and do it again.
Secondly: I would gently urge you to ignore any notion that reporting such incidents is "going over the head" of your instructor (and later your captain, boss, owner, or whatever). Each individual is responsible for reporting such issues, and in fulfilling this responsibility it is impossible to go over anyone's head. I realise this is perhaps contrary to what you may have been taught, but our reporting system is only as effective in catching incidents and educating the "wally's" as we are in accurately reporting them.
Also, why name the company? So we can all have a good laugh, backstab, fingerpoint, and say "tch tch", whilst being glad that THIS time it wasn't us!!
After all, this IS a rumour network. No fun if you dont tell us the juicy bits is it?
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Yes I agree with Captain Noodle. I can’t see your reason or point in posting the details of such an incident on an Internet forum that might not even be read by the person who so upset you?
It certainly does sound like a serious incident but don’t you think that a more appropriate course of action would of been, as suggested by others, to report the incident? Why wait a ‘few weeks’ before venting your anger? Posting your disgust, degenerating into personal, petty attacks such as: “I hope you have either taken some more dual lessons or learnt another hobbie”(sic) gives me the impression that you are not intent on rectifying the matter in a professional and mature way, rather you are more intent on relating war stories.
As Captain Noodle said, we have all made stupid mistakes, the most of which occurs as a student pilot..
If you have integrity, modesty, professionalism and genuine concern over the incident then you would take the matter up personally, go and see the person accused and sit down as a mentor and example explaining what happened, discuss measures to prevent such a thing happening again and perhaps even learn something yourself along the way.
It certainly does sound like a serious incident but don’t you think that a more appropriate course of action would of been, as suggested by others, to report the incident? Why wait a ‘few weeks’ before venting your anger? Posting your disgust, degenerating into personal, petty attacks such as: “I hope you have either taken some more dual lessons or learnt another hobbie”(sic) gives me the impression that you are not intent on rectifying the matter in a professional and mature way, rather you are more intent on relating war stories.
As Captain Noodle said, we have all made stupid mistakes, the most of which occurs as a student pilot..
If you have integrity, modesty, professionalism and genuine concern over the incident then you would take the matter up personally, go and see the person accused and sit down as a mentor and example explaining what happened, discuss measures to prevent such a thing happening again and perhaps even learn something yourself along the way.
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I would assume that the tower controller would have either submitted an ASIR, asked the pilot to have their CFI contact them or contact the CFI themselves in a matter such as this.
I therefore would no be surprised if the CFI is already aware of the issue.
I am not suggesting that it should be left to the tower controller to take the action but they normally initiate some type of contact to the flying school concerned.
Particularly in this case as the flying school would be well known to them as one of the main users of the airport.
I therefore would no be surprised if the CFI is already aware of the issue.
I am not suggesting that it should be left to the tower controller to take the action but they normally initiate some type of contact to the flying school concerned.
Particularly in this case as the flying school would be well known to them as one of the main users of the airport.
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NS,
The reason for the posting, was not really for venting anger, but as has happened, stating what happened and seeing if it occurred to anyone else and how they felt. (as you pointed out "war stories" was intended)
Yes, I am still annoyed that some "student" could put my(student) life in danger. So, can I not post for fear of upsetting this said student?, perhaps if he/she did read this it would impact more that there were lives in the other aircraft?
As I said before, the situation happened, the tower asked my instructor to call once on ground, I chased him up to find out what was going on, he said that he had spoken to CAS.
I believe that he did the appropriate action (I was not aware until now that it should become an incident report) So who am I to go over my instructer and approach the school. This proceedure not only belittles the instructor student relationship, it also puts me into a situation that I cannot do. I am a STUDENT!!!!!
(imagines sitting down and mentoring someone 10 years older who is a pilot) Come on!
In real life (away from pprune) I did act Professionally, and with integrity and modesty because I followed the chain of command! If at any time I would not be happy with the chain of command, I would have done something about it.
Now, original point of the posting was to let people know what happened, see if anyone can relate, and maybe give this student some perspective on the repercussions of their actions.
NS, What do you think Pprune is for?! rectifying matters professionally? or trading war stories?!
Dog
The reason for the posting, was not really for venting anger, but as has happened, stating what happened and seeing if it occurred to anyone else and how they felt. (as you pointed out "war stories" was intended)
Yes, I am still annoyed that some "student" could put my(student) life in danger. So, can I not post for fear of upsetting this said student?, perhaps if he/she did read this it would impact more that there were lives in the other aircraft?
As I said before, the situation happened, the tower asked my instructor to call once on ground, I chased him up to find out what was going on, he said that he had spoken to CAS.
I believe that he did the appropriate action (I was not aware until now that it should become an incident report) So who am I to go over my instructer and approach the school. This proceedure not only belittles the instructor student relationship, it also puts me into a situation that I cannot do. I am a STUDENT!!!!!
(imagines sitting down and mentoring someone 10 years older who is a pilot) Come on!
In real life (away from pprune) I did act Professionally, and with integrity and modesty because I followed the chain of command! If at any time I would not be happy with the chain of command, I would have done something about it.
Now, original point of the posting was to let people know what happened, see if anyone can relate, and maybe give this student some perspective on the repercussions of their actions.
“I hope you have either taken some more dual lessons or learnt another hobbie”(sic) gives me the impression that you are not intent on rectifying the matter in a professional and mature way, rather you are more intent on relating war stories.
Dog
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Your story changes.
Now you say:
Fair enough. It was reported, the matter was obviously addressed. If you are a student then it probably wouldn't be up to you to chase the matter up. I don't have a problem with that.
BUT
especially as a student you should be more aware of the fact that it ain't all that easy, people do screw up and perhaps next time it might be you who has done the stupid thing. How would you like your next stuff up to be splashed all over pprune in such a high and mighty manner like you can do no wrong, and to have everyone cry shame!?
No sir. If the original point of your posting was that then the tone of your post would of gone something like:
"I was involved in an incident that quite scared me into realising the importance of staying vigilant when flying in a GAAP. I was nearly cleaned up by someone doing a 180 on final and I had to take evasive action to avoid a potential catastrophe.
After we had landed my instructor took the matter up with the offending pilot and hopefully they realise now the seriousness of what had happened.
I wonder, has anyone else been involved in a similar situation? We must all remember to keep a sharp lookout when operating in GAAP aerodromes!"
not
"Real excellence and humility are not incompatible one with the other, on the contrary they are twin sisters." - Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
Learning some humility goes a long way to improving yourself inside and outside of a cockpit.
No *I* did not report it . I guess it is up to the instructor. If he doesn't, why should I go over his head. I have to have faith that he will do the right thing...
As I said before, the situation happened, the tower asked my instructor to call once on ground, I chased him up to find out what was going on, he said that he had spoken to CAS.
BUT
especially as a student you should be more aware of the fact that it ain't all that easy, people do screw up and perhaps next time it might be you who has done the stupid thing. How would you like your next stuff up to be splashed all over pprune in such a high and mighty manner like you can do no wrong, and to have everyone cry shame!?
Now, original point of the posting was to let people know what happened, see if anyone can relate, and maybe give this student some perspective on the repercussions of their actions.
"I was involved in an incident that quite scared me into realising the importance of staying vigilant when flying in a GAAP. I was nearly cleaned up by someone doing a 180 on final and I had to take evasive action to avoid a potential catastrophe.
After we had landed my instructor took the matter up with the offending pilot and hopefully they realise now the seriousness of what had happened.
I wonder, has anyone else been involved in a similar situation? We must all remember to keep a sharp lookout when operating in GAAP aerodromes!"
not
I know what school you are from and I hope that you have been dealt with accordingly.
Learning some humility goes a long way to improving yourself inside and outside of a cockpit.
Last edited by NO SLAVE; 16th Jul 2002 at 16:00.
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"I was involved in an incident that quite scared me into realising the importance of staying vigilant when flying in a GAAP. I was nearly cleaned up by someone doing a 180 on final and I had to take evasive action to avoid a potential catastrophe.
Where are you from? This is PPRUNE!
I think the point came across by the many other postings
All in all, I guess we have to remember (AGAIN) that a good lookout is absolutely vital. Glad no one was hurt and we can all learn the lesson again.
Oh, and tell me how my story has changed
*I* did not report it.. the question was asked, thats why I emphasised on the I bit.... (I'll try to make it clearer for you next time)
I still say that it is up to the instructor, and I trust he will do the right thing.
In the second quote... lemmi see...
I still did not report it, I still left it up to the instructor, and I still trusted him to do the right thing.
Perhaps NS you may be affiliated with said Flying school?
Back onto this poor student who made an unfortunate mistake. IT COULD HAVE COST ME MY LIFE! Yes, I am a student, yes I have thought a river was a road on a Nav etc etc, but I WOULD NOT ORBIT on FINALS at BK.
There are mistakes, and there are mistakes....
Dog
Ahh, dont know why I bother........
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I am just becoming more and more curious of something.... was there a reason the other aircraft did a 180? ie Was he/she excuting a go around at the instruction of the tower.... who may have said something like "*** go around and track direct for base" ? (If you don't fly at BK, that is a common go around instruction).
And a few more questions.... how high were you? Where were you (over the lakes? further in/out?), were you established on final? Were you warned of the traffic? Were the radio frequencies linked at the time (ie could you here 123.6?)?
And also just confiming the other aircraft was approaching 11R and made a LEFT turn, crossing the centreline of 11C AND 11L without approval and/or knowledge of TWR?
And a few more questions.... how high were you? Where were you (over the lakes? further in/out?), were you established on final? Were you warned of the traffic? Were the radio frequencies linked at the time (ie could you here 123.6?)?
And also just confiming the other aircraft was approaching 11R and made a LEFT turn, crossing the centreline of 11C AND 11L without approval and/or knowledge of TWR?