Virgin Blue Overrun in Darwin - CASA Report a Slamming Indictment on both VB and Crew
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Virgin Blue Overrun in Darwin - Company Report Strongly Criticises Crew and poor CRM
Just read the report about the 737 Overrun at Darwin Airport and couldn't believe what I was reading.
This report slammed the Captains total lack of adherence to SOP's,the F/O's total lack of assertiveness and Virgin Blues woefully lacking CRM program.
What dissapointed me more than anything else was the fact that when I come to Oz and need a flight quickly VB always comes to the rescue.
I thought by having alot of ex dispute drivers that the level of experience was high, but reading other postings on this forum about VB reducing the time required for line training,endorsement costs, shoddy CRM and low time Capt's etc etc that maybe I was wrong.
Any airline can have the occassional incident or overrun but these are typically done in poor weather conditions.
Darwin weather at the time was fine with little wind.
Briefly the main report can be summed up by the following points:
a. Inadequate use of autobrake was used (not questioned by the F/O)
b. The F/O was not adequately briefed for the approach and landing, particularly with respect to the reduced landing length.
To make matters worse this was the F/O's first trip into Darwin!!
c. The approach was rushed with speeds of Vref+40 at 500 agl and Vref + 20 over the threshold (as opposed to +20/+10).
d. A GPWS sink rate warning was given below 500 agl and not actioned by the crew in terms of a go-around.
This was not properly challenged by the F/O - (amazing!)
A mandatory go-around should have been commanded.
e. Besides the non-compliance of the Capt to report this incident with CASA,the aircraft flew another 10 sectors before VB issued a mandatory maintenance inspection of the aircraft for damage.
f. The time taken to send the Flight Data Recorder in for analysis was three days.This period was too long and deemed unacceptable.
Finally the thing that blew me away was the fact that when talking to a few mates (Captains) with VB they reackon they must have gone sick on the day of a CRM course because they have never attended one!
The other mate reackoned he went to one, but it was treated as a joke because they couldnt fail the course!
The other cruncher from the CASA report quoted "The first officer should have commanded a go-around when the approach was unstable at 500 feet.Unfortunately the phrase "Captain, you must listen to me " or a phrase similar hs not been covered in Virgin Blue CRM courses"............bloody amazing!
All in all I would way that I have personally changed my opinion of VB for the forseeable future until a Flight Ops Quality Assurance program (as recommended by CASA) is actually implemented.
Till then although cheap fares are offered and some outstanding aviators I know fly there, I would still regard them on the whole as amature hour.
Sorry guys and girls, but the facts have spoken for themselves.
Trust me - CX/SQ/QF/BA all have their problems but they at least appear to have a better safety/CRM culture and accountability for the reporting of incidents etc.
With the up and coming CASA Safety Audit I believe VB ought to lift their game and take the audit seriously because alot of changes in both personnel and procedures will result.
This report slammed the Captains total lack of adherence to SOP's,the F/O's total lack of assertiveness and Virgin Blues woefully lacking CRM program.
What dissapointed me more than anything else was the fact that when I come to Oz and need a flight quickly VB always comes to the rescue.
I thought by having alot of ex dispute drivers that the level of experience was high, but reading other postings on this forum about VB reducing the time required for line training,endorsement costs, shoddy CRM and low time Capt's etc etc that maybe I was wrong.
Any airline can have the occassional incident or overrun but these are typically done in poor weather conditions.
Darwin weather at the time was fine with little wind.
Briefly the main report can be summed up by the following points:
a. Inadequate use of autobrake was used (not questioned by the F/O)
b. The F/O was not adequately briefed for the approach and landing, particularly with respect to the reduced landing length.
To make matters worse this was the F/O's first trip into Darwin!!
c. The approach was rushed with speeds of Vref+40 at 500 agl and Vref + 20 over the threshold (as opposed to +20/+10).
d. A GPWS sink rate warning was given below 500 agl and not actioned by the crew in terms of a go-around.
This was not properly challenged by the F/O - (amazing!)
A mandatory go-around should have been commanded.
e. Besides the non-compliance of the Capt to report this incident with CASA,the aircraft flew another 10 sectors before VB issued a mandatory maintenance inspection of the aircraft for damage.
f. The time taken to send the Flight Data Recorder in for analysis was three days.This period was too long and deemed unacceptable.
Finally the thing that blew me away was the fact that when talking to a few mates (Captains) with VB they reackon they must have gone sick on the day of a CRM course because they have never attended one!
The other mate reackoned he went to one, but it was treated as a joke because they couldnt fail the course!
The other cruncher from the CASA report quoted "The first officer should have commanded a go-around when the approach was unstable at 500 feet.Unfortunately the phrase "Captain, you must listen to me " or a phrase similar hs not been covered in Virgin Blue CRM courses"............bloody amazing!
All in all I would way that I have personally changed my opinion of VB for the forseeable future until a Flight Ops Quality Assurance program (as recommended by CASA) is actually implemented.
Till then although cheap fares are offered and some outstanding aviators I know fly there, I would still regard them on the whole as amature hour.
Sorry guys and girls, but the facts have spoken for themselves.
Trust me - CX/SQ/QF/BA all have their problems but they at least appear to have a better safety/CRM culture and accountability for the reporting of incidents etc.
With the up and coming CASA Safety Audit I believe VB ought to lift their game and take the audit seriously because alot of changes in both personnel and procedures will result.
Last edited by Scooter; 16th Jul 2002 at 01:06.
Read the CASA report on QF BKK and you won't fly them either.
And the QF aircraft did crash after all.
How could an airline (QF) require lower flap settings to save money? Why was reverse thrust not used? Why were they so fast during the approach? Why did one pilot try to go around and the other overrode him? It's easy to be so wise after these events and very easy to make sweeping statements with the anonymity provided by PPRUNE, but with QF in BKK and DJ in Darwin, the pilots I believe were all good guys and very experienced.
Have a look and the incidents SQ have been involved in and you won't step on them ever again.
Virgin Blue are a young airline expanding at a far greater pace than even they imagined. No doubt their system is far from perfect and perhaps they need a wake-up call with incidents like this.
However, using QF or SQ as yardsticks is way off the beam. And they've been around for decades!
And the QF aircraft did crash after all.
How could an airline (QF) require lower flap settings to save money? Why was reverse thrust not used? Why were they so fast during the approach? Why did one pilot try to go around and the other overrode him? It's easy to be so wise after these events and very easy to make sweeping statements with the anonymity provided by PPRUNE, but with QF in BKK and DJ in Darwin, the pilots I believe were all good guys and very experienced.
Have a look and the incidents SQ have been involved in and you won't step on them ever again.
Virgin Blue are a young airline expanding at a far greater pace than even they imagined. No doubt their system is far from perfect and perhaps they need a wake-up call with incidents like this.
However, using QF or SQ as yardsticks is way off the beam. And they've been around for decades!
Evertonian
I have not read the CASA report as yet, so I won't pass any judgement on this incident. However, if what scooter has stated is true & correct, then if I was at DJ Al, I'd be asking some questions.
If you feel the need to offer your concerns about QF, then reopen the BKK thread, or start your own.
What happened in DRW sounds like the wake up call DJ needs if it's to maintain Australias fine commercial record. QF got the call in BKK, AN got it at SYD.
Don't always assume criticism of a company you are fond of is always intended to harm. Ask all the AN staff that thought Terry Mcrann was an FW. In the end, he was right.
If you feel the need to offer your concerns about QF, then reopen the BKK thread, or start your own.
What happened in DRW sounds like the wake up call DJ needs if it's to maintain Australias fine commercial record. QF got the call in BKK, AN got it at SYD.
Don't always assume criticism of a company you are fond of is always intended to harm. Ask all the AN staff that thought Terry Mcrann was an FW. In the end, he was right.
CASA report
Scooter,
I have searched both the CASA web site and the ATSB site for the Virgin over run in Darwin report and it's not to be found. Any assistance to locate same much appreciated.
Cheers, G
I have searched both the CASA web site and the ATSB site for the Virgin over run in Darwin report and it's not to be found. Any assistance to locate same much appreciated.
Cheers, G
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QF, BA, CX etc have not always had good safety records. They are just fortunate that they were around when crashing aircraft was deemed acceptable. Because of this they have developed good safety cultures over many years. I doubt that any of these operators would have been any different to Virgin in the first year or so after start up. Sure what happened at Darwin may have not been particularly special, but there are some good folks at virgin and above all, all managers know that nothing will affect your load factors like an accident, so i'm sure they are improving all the time and will one day reach the "lofty" heights of the Qantas safety Culture (that is tongue in cheek).
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What's all this nonsence about a wake up call?
If you think an airline or its pilots will benefit from a wake up call you shouldn't be in this business! Nor should the airline or its pilots!
If you think an airline or its pilots will benefit from a wake up call you shouldn't be in this business! Nor should the airline or its pilots!
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Scooter you duffer!
You just quoted VB's INTERNAL report, which was distributed to crews to assist them in learning from the incident.
PS I have done the CRM course and it is made quite clear that it is up to each of us to speak up if we are not happy..
ATSB investigate incidents by the way not CASA.
With regards the "non compliance" as you put it in reporting this to CASA - again the report goes to the ATSB, and as it didn't result in injury or damage to the aircraft it WAS reported within the regulatory time frame...
You weren't a journalist in a past life were you Scooter?
You just quoted VB's INTERNAL report, which was distributed to crews to assist them in learning from the incident.
PS I have done the CRM course and it is made quite clear that it is up to each of us to speak up if we are not happy..
ATSB investigate incidents by the way not CASA.
With regards the "non compliance" as you put it in reporting this to CASA - again the report goes to the ATSB, and as it didn't result in injury or damage to the aircraft it WAS reported within the regulatory time frame...
You weren't a journalist in a past life were you Scooter?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Anyone who would like to do a search on Scooter (I don`t need to, as I remember him well from other posts), will find that he is a sc@blover - hence he has an "agenda" in trying to portray Virgin Blue what he reackons (sic) as an "amature" (sic) airline.
Now, the question arises, from whom in Virgin Blue did Scooter obtain what is apparently an INTERNAL memo - but FALSELY claimed by Scooter to be a CASA (he probably means BASI) report?
All that aside, the points raised in the report are valid criticism.
Just for interest though, how many heard of the ANA B767 that ran OFF the runway at Shimoji Island 2 weeks ago (in fine, nil wind conditions), damaging the tail, and BOTH wingtips?
Or (again) the ANA B767 that overran the 10,000' + runway in Sapporo in February?
BTW, Scooter I have not yet attended ANY CRM course that had a Pass/Fail.
Now, the question arises, from whom in Virgin Blue did Scooter obtain what is apparently an INTERNAL memo - but FALSELY claimed by Scooter to be a CASA (he probably means BASI) report?
All that aside, the points raised in the report are valid criticism.
Just for interest though, how many heard of the ANA B767 that ran OFF the runway at Shimoji Island 2 weeks ago (in fine, nil wind conditions), damaging the tail, and BOTH wingtips?
Or (again) the ANA B767 that overran the 10,000' + runway in Sapporo in February?
BTW, Scooter I have not yet attended ANY CRM course that had a Pass/Fail.
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The importance of a structured CRM course and the development of a sound CRM ethos in any company goes without saying.
Just as important though is an atmosphere that promotes crews to speak up about incidents, a " no jeopardy ", or similiar system. It certainly seems as though this crew at least did not feel they had that support.
Scooter, " he who has never sinned may cast the first stone "
Just as important though is an atmosphere that promotes crews to speak up about incidents, a " no jeopardy ", or similiar system. It certainly seems as though this crew at least did not feel they had that support.
Scooter, " he who has never sinned may cast the first stone "
Nunc est bibendum
M, you may not have done a CRM course with a pass/fail but if the rumours going around are correct, CASA may like you to at some stage in the future should you choose to try and exercise the privilidges of your license.
Just a rumour though, nothing solid yet. Fancy a pass/fail on CRM. Australia- leading the way!
Just a rumour though, nothing solid yet. Fancy a pass/fail on CRM. Australia- leading the way!
Drukmefunk
You stated:
QF, BA, CX etc have not always had good safety records. They are just fortunate that they were around when crashing aircraft was deemed acceptable.
Unquote
Apart from the recent visit to the golf course at Don Muang QF have an umblemished record.
CX also has a an unblemished record apart from the bomb on the CV880 and the other 880 that shredded nose gear and ended up in the Fragrant Harbour ...oh so gently. In fact it was VR-HFX.
Let's get the facts straight i/o overly dramatic comments that we have been out putting grease stains on the side of mountains because it was deemed acceptable.
You stated:
QF, BA, CX etc have not always had good safety records. They are just fortunate that they were around when crashing aircraft was deemed acceptable.
Unquote
Apart from the recent visit to the golf course at Don Muang QF have an umblemished record.
CX also has a an unblemished record apart from the bomb on the CV880 and the other 880 that shredded nose gear and ended up in the Fragrant Harbour ...oh so gently. In fact it was VR-HFX.
Let's get the facts straight i/o overly dramatic comments that we have been out putting grease stains on the side of mountains because it was deemed acceptable.
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Scooter,
You stupid, irresponsible idiot! As claimed earlier, you have NOT read any CASA or ATSB or BASI report. You have merely read VB's own internal report and God knows just who was stupid enough to give it to someone like you.
At least the (nose) gear was down and the pax actually did need the stairs to disembark!
You stupid, irresponsible idiot! As claimed earlier, you have NOT read any CASA or ATSB or BASI report. You have merely read VB's own internal report and God knows just who was stupid enough to give it to someone like you.
At least the (nose) gear was down and the pax actually did need the stairs to disembark!
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VR-HFX,
You are wrong about QF having an umblemished record apart from BKK. VH-EAC, a QF super connie was destroyed after running of RWY 13 at Plaisance Airport, Mauritius on the 25th August 1960 after a failure of the No 3 engine.
You are wrong about QF having an umblemished record apart from BKK. VH-EAC, a QF super connie was destroyed after running of RWY 13 at Plaisance Airport, Mauritius on the 25th August 1960 after a failure of the No 3 engine.
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Wow, seems the big guy has been caught fiddling the keyboard.
Not good old son. Why didn't you just say you had "an internal"?
It isn't any less damaging. Even so, it makes the whole thread questionable. If you told a pork pie once, maybe the guts of the report are a crock too?
Who's this Kaptin M bloke anyway? Mate, sounds like you know your way around the traps, eh? Been to Sapurow or wherever the hell you say the overrun was? Or have you just been reading novels? Hee hee heeee. No offense chum.
So, my eyes tell me that VB are in the firing line, receiving the odd angry shot. No dramas there. Can't see the problem knocking folks every now and then, keeps people in line.
No BS though fellas. Can't see the facts for fiction that way, and that won't help anyone, supporters of VB or detractors (big word).
I flew VB once. Bunch of bluddy idiots on that flight. Hope they knew what they were doing behind all that fart assin' around acting like posers. It would seem that if the guts of our mate Scooter's post is half right, they don't know what the hell they're doing.
I can't see that as being true.
My slant on this is, Kaptin M is a wally, Scooter is a dobber and a bullsheeter (not good mate) and the rest of youse are in for a ride. One thing is for sure, you ******s at VB sell me cheap seats (actually a hoax as they're not) but they better not be cheap and nasty, 'cause if you kill me or my fam, I'm gunna sue your but like there is no tomorrow.
Not good old son. Why didn't you just say you had "an internal"?
It isn't any less damaging. Even so, it makes the whole thread questionable. If you told a pork pie once, maybe the guts of the report are a crock too?
Who's this Kaptin M bloke anyway? Mate, sounds like you know your way around the traps, eh? Been to Sapurow or wherever the hell you say the overrun was? Or have you just been reading novels? Hee hee heeee. No offense chum.
So, my eyes tell me that VB are in the firing line, receiving the odd angry shot. No dramas there. Can't see the problem knocking folks every now and then, keeps people in line.
No BS though fellas. Can't see the facts for fiction that way, and that won't help anyone, supporters of VB or detractors (big word).
I flew VB once. Bunch of bluddy idiots on that flight. Hope they knew what they were doing behind all that fart assin' around acting like posers. It would seem that if the guts of our mate Scooter's post is half right, they don't know what the hell they're doing.
I can't see that as being true.
My slant on this is, Kaptin M is a wally, Scooter is a dobber and a bullsheeter (not good mate) and the rest of youse are in for a ride. One thing is for sure, you ******s at VB sell me cheap seats (actually a hoax as they're not) but they better not be cheap and nasty, 'cause if you kill me or my fam, I'm gunna sue your but like there is no tomorrow.
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Casper - you are correct old son.
The report was actually an internal report (my apologies guys).
The fact that it was a slamming indictment on both crew, the lacking CRM course at Virgin Blue and the total lack of a Flt Ops Quality Assurance program BY VIRGIN BLUE THEMSELVES is indeed a wake up call and admission of serious internal problems.
KAPTIN M - a scablover eh??
Just for your info I am not one of those individuals nor did I ever support their cause nor will I ever.
What sort of crap talk is this anyway M?
Why always bring to light the supposed "scab" thing when you should be reading my post which was in actuality an internal report from VIRGIN BLUE slamming themselves which VB admitted that there are serious deficiencies in their own flight ops dept.
Kaptin M - you always came across as someone that spoke the truth when it came to safety issues but dont bring up the scab thing when you should be reading the facts as presented by what turned out to be VB Flt Ops.
Just because you have ex AN buddies flying for VB (one of whom could possibly be one of the responsible parties involved in this incident) shouldn't taint your objectivity.
Dont ever let rage overshadow the facts, especially when it comes to safety.
This thread was not an attack on VB - they admitted much the same in their own internal report.
I merely brought this to light.
If CX/QF/BA/SQ/UA or whoever published a report highlighting serious deficiencies dont you think it should be made public??
Thanks for letting others know about the ANA incidents/accidents M.
This is why we have free speech and freedom of press - the internet has allowed us to do this without the medias vetting.
For those concerned the report was given to me by someone in the organisation that is concerned by what they have seen over the 18 months or so.
KAP M - you should not be concerned by who leaked this report, but what VB can learn from the incident so it doesnt happen again.
As a supposed professional I believe you'd agree.
AL E Vator - when it comes to safety like I said BA/CX/QF/SQ et al are far from perfect.
By the same token they have been around during those pioneer days (except SQ) during which jets were first introduced with the inherent problems and steep learning curves.Pioneering routes across the pacific/atlantic etc etc before jets were even around!
Al - what we can learn from them is a safety culture which has been gathered through one hell of a lot of experience and minor incidences/or major accidents in the case of a few.
VB has some very experienced guys at the top with alot of experience in airlines and also these fine individuals can draw upon the experience of the parent company Virgin Atlantic and also other safety depts from other airlines and institutes worldwide.
That is why we attend safety conferences regularly.
Buster Hyman - good thread and to the point without getting all emotional.
Capn laptop - to quote the internal VB report " "The time taken to send the FDR for analysis was three days.This period was too long and unacceptable"
Also " Besides the non compliance with the regulators, the non reporting of the occurrence meant that the aircraft flew 10 sectors before Virgin Blue was informed....and could order a maintenance inspection"
The fact Capt'n Laptop that there was no damage was immaterial pal.What part of "unacceptable" and "non compliance with the regulators" dont you understand??
To those of you out there getting your nose out of joint about this apparently "leaked" internal report, it would not have been sent to me by this certain Captain with alot of experience unless they weren't concerned.
The fact that this internal report was highly critical vindicates this individual.
I'm sorry those of you out there were outraged at the supposed leaking of this report but wake up guys and see the real facts.
VB is a fairly new company with alot to learn - particularly when the experience of some of their new pilots (both Capts and F/O's) in some cases is a lot less than those of QF/AN etc.
In the case of this pilot he was very experienced - all the more reason to sit up and take notice.
Australia is in reality a very straight forward country to operate in compared to Asia/Europe/UK/US.
The fact that an experienced pilot flying a new airliner in good weather conditions can come unstuck like they did in what is a new company is indeed a wake up call for that organisation.
To say otherwise and yell outrage,brand me a "scab lover" of all ridiculous things and not see the true facts takes the "Professional" out of PPrUnE.
The report was actually an internal report (my apologies guys).
The fact that it was a slamming indictment on both crew, the lacking CRM course at Virgin Blue and the total lack of a Flt Ops Quality Assurance program BY VIRGIN BLUE THEMSELVES is indeed a wake up call and admission of serious internal problems.
KAPTIN M - a scablover eh??
Just for your info I am not one of those individuals nor did I ever support their cause nor will I ever.
What sort of crap talk is this anyway M?
Why always bring to light the supposed "scab" thing when you should be reading my post which was in actuality an internal report from VIRGIN BLUE slamming themselves which VB admitted that there are serious deficiencies in their own flight ops dept.
Kaptin M - you always came across as someone that spoke the truth when it came to safety issues but dont bring up the scab thing when you should be reading the facts as presented by what turned out to be VB Flt Ops.
Just because you have ex AN buddies flying for VB (one of whom could possibly be one of the responsible parties involved in this incident) shouldn't taint your objectivity.
Dont ever let rage overshadow the facts, especially when it comes to safety.
This thread was not an attack on VB - they admitted much the same in their own internal report.
I merely brought this to light.
If CX/QF/BA/SQ/UA or whoever published a report highlighting serious deficiencies dont you think it should be made public??
Thanks for letting others know about the ANA incidents/accidents M.
This is why we have free speech and freedom of press - the internet has allowed us to do this without the medias vetting.
For those concerned the report was given to me by someone in the organisation that is concerned by what they have seen over the 18 months or so.
KAP M - you should not be concerned by who leaked this report, but what VB can learn from the incident so it doesnt happen again.
As a supposed professional I believe you'd agree.
AL E Vator - when it comes to safety like I said BA/CX/QF/SQ et al are far from perfect.
By the same token they have been around during those pioneer days (except SQ) during which jets were first introduced with the inherent problems and steep learning curves.Pioneering routes across the pacific/atlantic etc etc before jets were even around!
Al - what we can learn from them is a safety culture which has been gathered through one hell of a lot of experience and minor incidences/or major accidents in the case of a few.
VB has some very experienced guys at the top with alot of experience in airlines and also these fine individuals can draw upon the experience of the parent company Virgin Atlantic and also other safety depts from other airlines and institutes worldwide.
That is why we attend safety conferences regularly.
Buster Hyman - good thread and to the point without getting all emotional.
Capn laptop - to quote the internal VB report " "The time taken to send the FDR for analysis was three days.This period was too long and unacceptable"
Also " Besides the non compliance with the regulators, the non reporting of the occurrence meant that the aircraft flew 10 sectors before Virgin Blue was informed....and could order a maintenance inspection"
The fact Capt'n Laptop that there was no damage was immaterial pal.What part of "unacceptable" and "non compliance with the regulators" dont you understand??
To those of you out there getting your nose out of joint about this apparently "leaked" internal report, it would not have been sent to me by this certain Captain with alot of experience unless they weren't concerned.
The fact that this internal report was highly critical vindicates this individual.
I'm sorry those of you out there were outraged at the supposed leaking of this report but wake up guys and see the real facts.
VB is a fairly new company with alot to learn - particularly when the experience of some of their new pilots (both Capts and F/O's) in some cases is a lot less than those of QF/AN etc.
In the case of this pilot he was very experienced - all the more reason to sit up and take notice.
Australia is in reality a very straight forward country to operate in compared to Asia/Europe/UK/US.
The fact that an experienced pilot flying a new airliner in good weather conditions can come unstuck like they did in what is a new company is indeed a wake up call for that organisation.
To say otherwise and yell outrage,brand me a "scab lover" of all ridiculous things and not see the true facts takes the "Professional" out of PPrUnE.
Last edited by Scooter; 14th Jul 2002 at 01:22.
"VR-HFX: Apart from the recent visit to the golf course at Don Muang QF have an umblemished record". Um no. that's not quite right.
They had aConnie crash crash in Mauritius. They had a 707 roll inverted ex Bahrain due misreading of flight instruments (luckily ably to recover).
Potentially more serious was the recent 747 which took off from Sydney on emergency isstruments only. The Captain realligned IRSs whilst taxying and assumed the PFIs would be restored. They weren't, the other flight crew voiced their displeasure but the take-off was initiated AND completed on standby instruments only. The flight (QF 1 to BKK) only returned after reaching 25000' on climb it was evident the PFIs would never return. Potentially very dangerous and horrendous CRM.
There are more cases like this from QF, many involving serious problems with CRM.
We can ALL improve CRM. No airline should ever be held up as best because that is usually a folly.
They had aConnie crash crash in Mauritius. They had a 707 roll inverted ex Bahrain due misreading of flight instruments (luckily ably to recover).
Potentially more serious was the recent 747 which took off from Sydney on emergency isstruments only. The Captain realligned IRSs whilst taxying and assumed the PFIs would be restored. They weren't, the other flight crew voiced their displeasure but the take-off was initiated AND completed on standby instruments only. The flight (QF 1 to BKK) only returned after reaching 25000' on climb it was evident the PFIs would never return. Potentially very dangerous and horrendous CRM.
There are more cases like this from QF, many involving serious problems with CRM.
We can ALL improve CRM. No airline should ever be held up as best because that is usually a folly.
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A bit of research on the internet shows that the supposedly great Qantas safety record looks like a bit of an urban myth, probably carefully nurtured by their PR department, and greatly depending on the fact that they have not actually killed any passengers yet.
Apparently Qantas have been littering the countryside with wrecked aircraft for many years.
Apart from the B747 at BKK and the L1049 at Mauritius mentioned above, you can find:
Date: 07 APR 1949
Type: Avro 691 Lancastrian 1
Operator: Qantas
Registration: VH-EAS
C/n: 1184
Year built:
Crew: 0 fatalities / 5 on board
Passengers: 0 fatalities / 0 on board
Total: 0 fatalities / 5 on board
Location: Dubbo (Australia)
Phase: Landing
Nature: Training
Departure airport:
Destination airport: Dubbo Airport, NSW (DBO)
Remarks:
The Lancastrian swung on landing, causing the landig gear to collapse. A fire broke erupted and destroyed the aircraft. PROBABLE CAUSE: "The pilot carried out a flapless landing under unsuitable meteorlogical and wind conditions."
And also references to other Qantas accidents:
Qantas 24 Mar 1927 de Havilland DH-9C G-AUED
Qantas 15 Nov 1934 de Havilland DH-86 VH-USG
Qantas 20 Feb 1942 de Havilland DH-86 VH-USE
Qantas 22 Apr 1943 Short S-23 (flying boat) VH-ADU
Qantas 26 Nov 1943 Lockheed 18 Lodestar VH-CAB
Qantas 11 Oct 1944 Short S-23 (flying boat) VH-ABB
Qantas 16 Jul 1951 de Havilland Drover II VH-EBQ
Perhaps not quite so impeccable a reputation as some would have us believe?
Apparently Qantas have been littering the countryside with wrecked aircraft for many years.
Apart from the B747 at BKK and the L1049 at Mauritius mentioned above, you can find:
Date: 07 APR 1949
Type: Avro 691 Lancastrian 1
Operator: Qantas
Registration: VH-EAS
C/n: 1184
Year built:
Crew: 0 fatalities / 5 on board
Passengers: 0 fatalities / 0 on board
Total: 0 fatalities / 5 on board
Location: Dubbo (Australia)
Phase: Landing
Nature: Training
Departure airport:
Destination airport: Dubbo Airport, NSW (DBO)
Remarks:
The Lancastrian swung on landing, causing the landig gear to collapse. A fire broke erupted and destroyed the aircraft. PROBABLE CAUSE: "The pilot carried out a flapless landing under unsuitable meteorlogical and wind conditions."
And also references to other Qantas accidents:
Qantas 24 Mar 1927 de Havilland DH-9C G-AUED
Qantas 15 Nov 1934 de Havilland DH-86 VH-USG
Qantas 20 Feb 1942 de Havilland DH-86 VH-USE
Qantas 22 Apr 1943 Short S-23 (flying boat) VH-ADU
Qantas 26 Nov 1943 Lockheed 18 Lodestar VH-CAB
Qantas 11 Oct 1944 Short S-23 (flying boat) VH-ABB
Qantas 16 Jul 1951 de Havilland Drover II VH-EBQ
Perhaps not quite so impeccable a reputation as some would have us believe?
Desert Dingo
I don`t see much relevance in listing accidents from the dawn of commercial aviation.The Lancastrian interesting,remembering Bomber Command suffered %30 casualities in training accidents.
But if important,dig further an you will find more incidents/accidents by Qantas on Dayaks and BE5s in the twenties.
Thought this was all about Virgin Blue?
I don`t see much relevance in listing accidents from the dawn of commercial aviation.The Lancastrian interesting,remembering Bomber Command suffered %30 casualities in training accidents.
But if important,dig further an you will find more incidents/accidents by Qantas on Dayaks and BE5s in the twenties.
Thought this was all about Virgin Blue?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
The FACT is Scoooter, you could have posted this report here on PPRuNe without your own sensationalised, and INCORRECT "CASA Report a Slamming Indictment on both VB and Crew", and have generated some meaningful discussion.
It certainly didn't come across as,
Incidentally - and I stand to be corrected - I was under the impression that the Captain was NOT an ex-Ansett (Australia) pilot.
My point in mentioning the ANA overrun and accident at Shimoji was to ask how many of you knew about it? None, I`d say, as it didn`t make the press in Japan, yet the overrun was at a major international/domestic airport (you really need to widen your shallow horizon, Lifejacket
) and caused its closure for about an hour.
You mention that you BELIEVE a maintenance ispection should have been carried out.
What leads you to make a statement indicating that it wasn`t?
I would bet my last dollar that one was!
Well, I guess that puts QANTAS, VB and the late Ansett all on even stakes in the overrun department, QF in BKK, AN in SYD, and VB in DRW.
Maybe it`s Australian pilots that are the common thread in all 3 cases!!
BTW, Scooter, the question has to be asked,
Why was
Why did he think YOU (someone not employed by VB, nor CASA) would be able to effect VB`s inhouse policies?
Why didn`t HE approach the Flight Department of VB with his concerns?
It certainly didn't come across as,
This thread was not an attack on VB
My point in mentioning the ANA overrun and accident at Shimoji was to ask how many of you knew about it? None, I`d say, as it didn`t make the press in Japan, yet the overrun was at a major international/domestic airport (you really need to widen your shallow horizon, Lifejacket
) and caused its closure for about an hour.You mention that you BELIEVE a maintenance ispection should have been carried out.
What leads you to make a statement indicating that it wasn`t?
I would bet my last dollar that one was!
Well, I guess that puts QANTAS, VB and the late Ansett all on even stakes in the overrun department, QF in BKK, AN in SYD, and VB in DRW.
Maybe it`s Australian pilots that are the common thread in all 3 cases!!
BTW, Scooter, the question has to be asked,
Why was
the report was given to me by someone in the organisation that is concerned by what they have seen over the 18 months or so.......this certain Captain with a lot of experience
Why didn`t HE approach the Flight Department of VB with his concerns?
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Why try to read so much into the over run?
The reality is the PIC made an error of judgement, the F/O didn't voice their concerns. You can bet neither will make the same mistakes again. Therefore lesson learned, with nothing damaged but pride.
And, they're not the first persons, nor airline, to make mistakes.
A gale in a tea cup if you ask me.
The reality is the PIC made an error of judgement, the F/O didn't voice their concerns. You can bet neither will make the same mistakes again. Therefore lesson learned, with nothing damaged but pride.
And, they're not the first persons, nor airline, to make mistakes.
A gale in a tea cup if you ask me.