Threat Of Strikes At Air New Zealand.
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So true
Buster, you are so very correct. The pilots are numbers in the big accounting game. Airlines are run by 'bean counters' who only look at the bottom line.
There's two sides to every story, but it doesn't occur to most people to look at the other side occasionally.
There's two sides to every story, but it doesn't occur to most people to look at the other side occasionally.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Zealand
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Well one thing is for sure, come the 19th the only people flying AirNZ a/c for two days will be NON ALPA pilots.
If the management think we are just happily going to give up ALL our conditions and let all our short haul work go to Freedom and be flown by non AirNZ, long serving & loyal pilots then they are in for a big surpise because we've had enough!!
They failed to mention in there Airbus media release that at least the first 5 are going to Freedom!
This industrial action is because the management want to take away flying of AirNZ A/C by AirNZ pilots.
We don't care how they brand them but we wanna fly them.
If the management think we are just happily going to give up ALL our conditions and let all our short haul work go to Freedom and be flown by non AirNZ, long serving & loyal pilots then they are in for a big surpise because we've had enough!!
They failed to mention in there Airbus media release that at least the first 5 are going to Freedom!
This industrial action is because the management want to take away flying of AirNZ A/C by AirNZ pilots.
We don't care how they brand them but we wanna fly them.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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How often do the pilots have to pay for a ticket on an NZ flight? It is costing a fortune?
Instead of a 15% reduction I heard from other NZ staff it was a salary freeze, similar to one asked of other NZ staff who are very happy to have a job and an airline!
Hopefully the new senior management will be more responsive and less arrogant than some of their predecessors.
Please reconsider striking - for the interest of your families, your colleagues, and the general interest of the airline
Instead of a 15% reduction I heard from other NZ staff it was a salary freeze, similar to one asked of other NZ staff who are very happy to have a job and an airline!
Hopefully the new senior management will be more responsive and less arrogant than some of their predecessors.
Please reconsider striking - for the interest of your families, your colleagues, and the general interest of the airline
Join Date: Jul 2000
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I think it's time I cleared this 15% pay cut issue up. The company hasn't asked for this, yet.
The was mis reported in the media & then stirred along by the company.
What the company wants from us is a 15-19% cut in "Flight operations" costs.
These include training costs (lock us on one type for ever = 15 years as a S/O )
Reduced trip expenses (staying in the back packers & eating at Maccas) More flying out of us (Tear up our fight & duty times restrictions) they can easily get 90 hrs a month out of us now.
Labour costs, tearing up our contract means they would need a few less pilots = less cost!
But the BIG issue is that they wont give us any security of employment. They want to be able to make us redundant by giving AirNZ a/c to freedom or any other VBA airline they decide to start up.
Freedom got OUR last 737 and are getting OUR next 737.
The company told us that Freedom was set up to keep out other VBA and to operate/generate business out of regional centres.
Come October they are Taking over all the Brisbane flying from CHC,AKL,WLG!! (Main centers, AirNZ flying) and the company is already talking about down training for our crews!!
The was mis reported in the media & then stirred along by the company.
What the company wants from us is a 15-19% cut in "Flight operations" costs.
These include training costs (lock us on one type for ever = 15 years as a S/O )
Reduced trip expenses (staying in the back packers & eating at Maccas) More flying out of us (Tear up our fight & duty times restrictions) they can easily get 90 hrs a month out of us now.
Labour costs, tearing up our contract means they would need a few less pilots = less cost!
But the BIG issue is that they wont give us any security of employment. They want to be able to make us redundant by giving AirNZ a/c to freedom or any other VBA airline they decide to start up.
Freedom got OUR last 737 and are getting OUR next 737.
The company told us that Freedom was set up to keep out other VBA and to operate/generate business out of regional centres.
Come October they are Taking over all the Brisbane flying from CHC,AKL,WLG!! (Main centers, AirNZ flying) and the company is already talking about down training for our crews!!
Join Date: Dec 1998
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BWAHAHAHA!
For a first post, that has to be the funniest, and also the most pitifully ignorant I've seen. That is, unless the 'ex' bit is just a little bit of a porkie.
Let's just go straight to the matter. Despite your assertion to the contrary, AirNZ senior management remains the same assortment of carpetbaggers, snakeoil salesmen and smoke-and-mirror men who abysmally failed to make the AirNZ/AN thing work. In case you hadn't noticed - and I'm sure they didn't - that's their job! But no, as long as they can point the finger at AN, they'll be able to sit happily in denial. So, if you are going to tell me that the 'new' management will be less arrogant than the old, you'll also have to pardon me while I work out whether to laugh or cry - oh, laugh it is!
The institutionalised arrogance of AirNZ's management beggars belief. If you were indeed one of us, the workers, you'd know that, if it weren't the pilots, it would be the engineers, the flighties or the terminal staff taking a sitdown. Bereft of real ideas, they come back to try the staff on. Well, not this time, not ever again.
It's not about money (although I'll be looking for a good bit of that later: we've taken it on the chin for far too long). It's about allowing management to f*ck with our careers. It's about treating dedicated staff with contempt. It's about feathering their nests while telling us we should be thankful we have a job. It's talking about the airline's interests as being more important than the staff's.
We put up with that two faced 'greater good, work as a team' guff for too long. One specific example to answer you. AirNZ's staff travel exists as a profit centre for the airline. Philosophically, I have a problem with that, but accept it as a condition existing when I joined. What I have great problem with is that management avails itself of a far more generous scheme, but is unable to tell the truth about it. Tin tacks: our ID90 is based on the maximum fare, theirs on the commercially available fare. Source: Company Secretary quoted in the 'Dominion' in Dec01.
It's not about the unfairness, it's about the untruth.
So, when ALPA has identified 12% productivity improvements by allowing us to interchangeably fly Freedom - or whoever they set up next week - at no cost to the company, it's obvious that productivity isn't the issue. It's about them f*cking with me.
Reconsider striking? My only problem with this strike is that we've been too gentlemanly to this point, but when we've got the big stick out now, it's time to use it; and use it well.
Let's just go straight to the matter. Despite your assertion to the contrary, AirNZ senior management remains the same assortment of carpetbaggers, snakeoil salesmen and smoke-and-mirror men who abysmally failed to make the AirNZ/AN thing work. In case you hadn't noticed - and I'm sure they didn't - that's their job! But no, as long as they can point the finger at AN, they'll be able to sit happily in denial. So, if you are going to tell me that the 'new' management will be less arrogant than the old, you'll also have to pardon me while I work out whether to laugh or cry - oh, laugh it is!
The institutionalised arrogance of AirNZ's management beggars belief. If you were indeed one of us, the workers, you'd know that, if it weren't the pilots, it would be the engineers, the flighties or the terminal staff taking a sitdown. Bereft of real ideas, they come back to try the staff on. Well, not this time, not ever again.
It's not about money (although I'll be looking for a good bit of that later: we've taken it on the chin for far too long). It's about allowing management to f*ck with our careers. It's about treating dedicated staff with contempt. It's about feathering their nests while telling us we should be thankful we have a job. It's talking about the airline's interests as being more important than the staff's.
We put up with that two faced 'greater good, work as a team' guff for too long. One specific example to answer you. AirNZ's staff travel exists as a profit centre for the airline. Philosophically, I have a problem with that, but accept it as a condition existing when I joined. What I have great problem with is that management avails itself of a far more generous scheme, but is unable to tell the truth about it. Tin tacks: our ID90 is based on the maximum fare, theirs on the commercially available fare. Source: Company Secretary quoted in the 'Dominion' in Dec01.
It's not about the unfairness, it's about the untruth.
So, when ALPA has identified 12% productivity improvements by allowing us to interchangeably fly Freedom - or whoever they set up next week - at no cost to the company, it's obvious that productivity isn't the issue. It's about them f*cking with me.
Reconsider striking? My only problem with this strike is that we've been too gentlemanly to this point, but when we've got the big stick out now, it's time to use it; and use it well.
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YES
Oicur12
In a word YES there is. It's called safety. Do the bean counters know that if you pay peanuts you get .....
The bottom line might be a cheap operation, but not necessarily a safe operation.
In a word YES there is. It's called safety. Do the bean counters know that if you pay peanuts you get .....
The bottom line might be a cheap operation, but not necessarily a safe operation.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Friendly Pelican - the travelling public do not want to be tied up with your gripes with management.
Air NZ is still in a delicate position - all the pilots should be happy to have jobs, regardless of what colour the tale is painted.
Before striking think of those close to you - family, friends, and work colleagues. Most of them will probably earn less than you and will be happy to have jobs.
You get very good travel discounts even if your ID90 is based on a full fare. At last look it was at least half of the cheapest public fare!
All the airline pilots I know are profeesionals and very concerned about safety. Why is the safety card always played - you are professional regardless of what plane you are flying.
Get the public on your side before they switch to QF or other alternatives. Without the public you will not be sitting where you do.
Air NZ needs to make efficiencies - you can all help.
Air NZ is still in a delicate position - all the pilots should be happy to have jobs, regardless of what colour the tale is painted.
Before striking think of those close to you - family, friends, and work colleagues. Most of them will probably earn less than you and will be happy to have jobs.
You get very good travel discounts even if your ID90 is based on a full fare. At last look it was at least half of the cheapest public fare!
All the airline pilots I know are profeesionals and very concerned about safety. Why is the safety card always played - you are professional regardless of what plane you are flying.
Get the public on your side before they switch to QF or other alternatives. Without the public you will not be sitting where you do.
Air NZ needs to make efficiencies - you can all help.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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When will management EVER learn that staff loyalty and goodwill is worth far, far more to their business than pi$$*ng staff off by asking for paycuts, to prop up the airline because of their bad decisions. Did the beancounters not learn in management 101 that you cannot save a business into profitability? Increased revenue is the only way to achieve this, and saving a few dollars through salary reductions does not count.
As for Longjohn, pull your thick head out of your a$$. In case you did'nt notice, Air NZ PILOTS had nothing to do with Ansetts failure, it was AN management, followed unfortunately by an equally useless crowd that did that airline in. You and that other idiot cino2go, get your facts straight before making useless observations and baseless allegations.
As for Longjohn, pull your thick head out of your a$$. In case you did'nt notice, Air NZ PILOTS had nothing to do with Ansetts failure, it was AN management, followed unfortunately by an equally useless crowd that did that airline in. You and that other idiot cino2go, get your facts straight before making useless observations and baseless allegations.
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Tail/Tale
Ex industry beanie said ..
"Air NZ is still in a delicate position - all the pilots should be happy to have jobs, regardless of what colour the tale is painted. "
Very funny for a 'new' poster/tale
"Air NZ is still in a delicate position - all the pilots should be happy to have jobs, regardless of what colour the tale is painted. "
Very funny for a 'new' poster/tale
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you guys are gay! 38k for a 73 fo, why not try an ag rating, or fly G.A. in aussie. I am interested to see what management of your company gets paid (the perks are probably pretty good too), does anyone have the figures. I would have thought AirNZs main share holder would have a say in trimming managements salaries.
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One question.......
So why did NZAPLA let the Trojan horse (Freedom) in?
I seem to remember being told by a somewhat cocky NZAPLA rep that you guys (ALPA) had that well under control.
Nose Gear - actually, my head is rather thin. Play the man and not the ball, you may garner more respect.
So why did NZAPLA let the Trojan horse (Freedom) in?
I seem to remember being told by a somewhat cocky NZAPLA rep that you guys (ALPA) had that well under control.
Nose Gear - actually, my head is rather thin. Play the man and not the ball, you may garner more respect.
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Longjohn, what the hell are you talking about? Do you have any idea what you are on about when it comes to the union here?Trojan Horse? The Freedom pilots have had a real struggle getting the company to accept the union as their representative, so again, get your facts straight. As for playing the man and not the ball, that depends entirely on what game your'e playing does'nt it? Of course, you are the one bragging about your thin head.....
Pharknose, you are dead right, now the scabs call themselves the Federation of Air NZ pilots. The union call them something else, but this is a family show.
Nosey
Pharknose, you are dead right, now the scabs call themselves the Federation of Air NZ pilots. The union call them something else, but this is a family show.
Nosey
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Longjohn... re taking it like a man, nicely put. Doesn't change the end results of their handiwork over here, though. But now everyone can see what sorts the ANZ management are. And to all those who say it wasn't AirNZ's fault AN went under, picture that last B737 outbound from ML with a belly full of engine/spares (paid for by An but now "owned" by AirNZ) before the gate was slammed shut by the administrators. I think that spells out their attitude. AirNZ fuel bills, wages, $70M/annum of air-freight, etc, all serviced by AN but benefitting AirNZ. That's what killed AN. Small man's/airline's syndrome. You guys went along with it. Excepting for the individuals that always get screwed, there's not much sympathy over here.
Evertonian
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You forgot to mention the 737's that were "mortgaged" by "management". The cash went across the Tasman, and the loan stayed here for the administrators.
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FYI... The ALPA strike notice was issued well before the Airbus purchase announcement. It's not about a new type nor new pay, it's about protecting our present conditions. Most employees would accept a wage freeze for 12 months to help Air NZ out, but this isn't enough, the management want more, more more. (and then some) On one hand they crow at how well they have turned the company fortunes around, but then it's oh..times are tough..we all have to make sacrifices..blah blah blah. We've heard it all before.
As far as Air NZ taking a 737 load of spare parts out of AN, this may or may not be true, but even if it was, the value of a 10 747s full of spares would be far less than the millions NZ put into AN to keep it running for the last few months. Save your vitriol for the former management The Air NZ rank & file; pilots, hosties, engineers, ground staff etc, they didn't want AN to go under and nor did they cause it. Yes, we are grateful to have a job when many others across the ditch don't, but that doesn't mean we are going to bend over and take it up the tailpipe from a bunch of management you-know-whats.
:mad:
As far as Air NZ taking a 737 load of spare parts out of AN, this may or may not be true, but even if it was, the value of a 10 747s full of spares would be far less than the millions NZ put into AN to keep it running for the last few months. Save your vitriol for the former management The Air NZ rank & file; pilots, hosties, engineers, ground staff etc, they didn't want AN to go under and nor did they cause it. Yes, we are grateful to have a job when many others across the ditch don't, but that doesn't mean we are going to bend over and take it up the tailpipe from a bunch of management you-know-whats.
:mad:
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Air NZ should have known its place. It should have let SQ buy the other 50% of AN, and participated in the SQ/AN/ANZ team as the least significant member. But these clowns had egos, and with no money they shut SQ out and the rest is history.
It's fairly obvious the ANZ management will take the airline down the budget track. This means Freedom pay and conditions. The pilots can do what they like but it is unlikely they will win. When the Air NZ F27 wages were too high, the company shutdown the operation and farmed the work out to Air Nelson / Mount Cook.
I can understand the frustration of the pilots, as they realise their conditions are history. The new aircraft will stay in the Air NZ fleet only if the pilots accept Freedom-like pay. If they don’t accept the conditions it will go to Freedom.
Real Airline = Real Pay
Budget Airline = Budget Pay
New Zealand Budget Airline = Slightly Above Adult Minimum wage
It's fairly obvious the ANZ management will take the airline down the budget track. This means Freedom pay and conditions. The pilots can do what they like but it is unlikely they will win. When the Air NZ F27 wages were too high, the company shutdown the operation and farmed the work out to Air Nelson / Mount Cook.
I can understand the frustration of the pilots, as they realise their conditions are history. The new aircraft will stay in the Air NZ fleet only if the pilots accept Freedom-like pay. If they don’t accept the conditions it will go to Freedom.
Real Airline = Real Pay
Budget Airline = Budget Pay
New Zealand Budget Airline = Slightly Above Adult Minimum wage
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Interesting to note the NZ government bailed the gobblers in the Air NZ boardroom out to the tune of 1 billion kiwi dollars in order to keep them afloat after the Ansett debarcle.
The incredible thing is the company had a market cap of around
250 million at the time.
Sounds like a good investment to me ?.
The incredible thing is the company had a market cap of around
250 million at the time.
Sounds like a good investment to me ?.
Thread Starter
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koru,
IF you mean what I said?
I was NOT talking about the Union.
I was wondering if Air NZ, knowing that they were going to get the new type, set out to provoke the Unions, it has been done before.
Cheers,
airsupport.
IF you mean what I said?
I was NOT talking about the Union.
I was wondering if Air NZ, knowing that they were going to get the new type, set out to provoke the Unions, it has been done before.
Cheers,
airsupport.