Have you been "RAMPED" Lately???
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Have you been "RAMPED" Lately???
Heard a rumour that the CASA boys were in alice lsat weekend doing a bit of sniffing around at the GA aircraft.
So what is the following scenario like:
You have just weighed your nervous pax and about to put scales into aircraft and load up as you already running approx 10mins late. The "BOYS" come over and say "Can we ramp check you?"
??????????
Can you actually tell them NO??????
OR
Do they only ask this to **** you off??? As surely they would just go ahead anyway!!!
So in the meantime the pax are getting more nervous as why is CASA checking them out??????? Like Oh **** !!!!!!!whats wrong??
Just want to know my rights incase this scenario ever happens to me!????
Can I say look fella, I will be back at 5pm, Ramp check me then as I gotta go?????
Cheers
Baron..
So what is the following scenario like:
You have just weighed your nervous pax and about to put scales into aircraft and load up as you already running approx 10mins late. The "BOYS" come over and say "Can we ramp check you?"
??????????
Can you actually tell them NO??????
OR
Do they only ask this to **** you off??? As surely they would just go ahead anyway!!!
So in the meantime the pax are getting more nervous as why is CASA checking them out??????? Like Oh **** !!!!!!!whats wrong??
Just want to know my rights incase this scenario ever happens to me!????
Can I say look fella, I will be back at 5pm, Ramp check me then as I gotta go?????
Cheers
Baron..
CASA officers are carrying out duties under a delegation of the CARs. All officers are issued with an identity card, and on the back are listed the delegations they hold.
For instance,
reg 43a allows them to ask to see the maintenance release,
reg 50d allows them to inspect other records (like the aircraft log books).
reg 53 allows them to inspect the aircraft for defects.
reg 227 allows them to enter the flight deck/cockpit, unless the pilot in command considers this will adversely effect the safety of flight, and is prepared to give reasons in writing to CASA
Reg 302 allows them to "cause to be produced for inspection by an authorised person, any certificates, licences, log books or other documents relating to the aircraft and, if it carries passengers or cargo, the list of names of the passengers or the bills of lading and the manifest, as the case may be."
reg305 allows them to enter buildings, airports, hangars etc.
In short, no you cannot refuse them - the big one here is probably CAR 288, which allows "Where it appears to CASA that any aircraft is intended or likely to be flown in such circumstances that the flight would involve an offence against these regulations or be a cause of danger to persons in the aircraft or to persons or property on the ground, CASA may take such action by way of detention of the aircraft or such other action as is necessary for the purpose of causing the circumstances relating to the flight to be investigated or the aircraft to be inspected"
You are entitled to ask for their ID, and if they haven't got it on them (fat chance) then you could refuse them. If you know the reg numbers, you could inspect the card to see if they are authorised to carry out the particular function they are attempting.
More information (if you are insterested) here (pdf file) -= which is the CASA Enforcement manual, giving instructions to inspectors on just this question.
For instance,
reg 43a allows them to ask to see the maintenance release,
reg 50d allows them to inspect other records (like the aircraft log books).
reg 53 allows them to inspect the aircraft for defects.
reg 227 allows them to enter the flight deck/cockpit, unless the pilot in command considers this will adversely effect the safety of flight, and is prepared to give reasons in writing to CASA
Reg 302 allows them to "cause to be produced for inspection by an authorised person, any certificates, licences, log books or other documents relating to the aircraft and, if it carries passengers or cargo, the list of names of the passengers or the bills of lading and the manifest, as the case may be."
reg305 allows them to enter buildings, airports, hangars etc.
In short, no you cannot refuse them - the big one here is probably CAR 288, which allows "Where it appears to CASA that any aircraft is intended or likely to be flown in such circumstances that the flight would involve an offence against these regulations or be a cause of danger to persons in the aircraft or to persons or property on the ground, CASA may take such action by way of detention of the aircraft or such other action as is necessary for the purpose of causing the circumstances relating to the flight to be investigated or the aircraft to be inspected"
You are entitled to ask for their ID, and if they haven't got it on them (fat chance) then you could refuse them. If you know the reg numbers, you could inspect the card to see if they are authorised to carry out the particular function they are attempting.
More information (if you are insterested) here (pdf file) -= which is the CASA Enforcement manual, giving instructions to inspectors on just this question.
Last edited by Checkboard; 12th Jun 2002 at 10:04.
As checkers says...
If you have passengers with you, all you can do is explain that this is the aviation equivalent of random breath tests, that you just happened to be one of the random inspections and are obliged under the aviation rules & regs to comply.
Then be polite to the inspectors, inform them that this will inconvenience your passengers, that you wish to mininise your passenger's delay and ask what documents they want in one hit.
This so you don't have to traipse back & forth for the next bit of paper when they find each one is in order...
There's a point. What if the inspection will cause you to miss a clearance time or incur excess charges as a result of the delay eg a landing or take-off will now now incur additional holding, peak period charges etc? Are CASA liable for the extra cost for which they're responsible? I suspect not...
If you have passengers with you, all you can do is explain that this is the aviation equivalent of random breath tests, that you just happened to be one of the random inspections and are obliged under the aviation rules & regs to comply.
Then be polite to the inspectors, inform them that this will inconvenience your passengers, that you wish to mininise your passenger's delay and ask what documents they want in one hit.
This so you don't have to traipse back & forth for the next bit of paper when they find each one is in order...
There's a point. What if the inspection will cause you to miss a clearance time or incur excess charges as a result of the delay eg a landing or take-off will now now incur additional holding, peak period charges etc? Are CASA liable for the extra cost for which they're responsible? I suspect not...
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I made the mistake of pissing off an FOI who wanted to conduct a ramp check. Said I was 'running late and why couldn't he do it on my return later that day' which he agreed to!
Not only was he waiting for me later that day but also another FOI and 3 x airworthiness guys. A/C grounded with a small tear in the fireproofing between the nose locker and firewall!!
Lesson - play the game, be polite, have the paperwork in order!
Not only was he waiting for me later that day but also another FOI and 3 x airworthiness guys. A/C grounded with a small tear in the fireproofing between the nose locker and firewall!!
Lesson - play the game, be polite, have the paperwork in order!
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In short, no they aren't liable for losses, costs etc. Covered by legislation. There are quite a few companies about who can attest to that. Still, there has to be some protection to the investigators, otherwise you get the situation where they cannot do their job for fear of being sued, wrongly or rightly. It's a delicate balance, and everyone has their own views as to how far that should go.
Heard that CASA get extremely suspicious when on a ramp check inspection, if the maintenance release shows no defects recorded. Probably OK if the aircraft just out of a 100 hourly by an hour or two - but real suss if half way to next inspection and the page is lily white...
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Checkers
My memory is a bit cranky on this one and they may well have changed the rules but unless;
as you quoted
You can if you are just about to go fly NOW and if they persist, tell them, ever so politely of course, that you have a business to run and to go to hell, unless they feel really confident about invoking the above.
It raises the stakes a bit and sort of shifts the onus a lot, on the basis that they will have to show prior, that there would have been an offence etc etc .
They have no right beyond the above, to delay you in the lawful prosecution of your business.
If you are "legal" and you have taken all reasonable steps short of a complete tear down of the aircraft, I suggest they can go whistle dixie and I have told the odd one so on the odd occasion.
Otherwise what's the point of licensing you and your organisation to carry out the privileges for which they issued the license in the first place.
I thought those days were over. They can have the whole Dept waiting for me when I get back for all I care because at the end of the day you are either doing it right or you aren't.
There is no way, with all the bags and freight out on the tarmac, passengers being reweighed, documents being checked and engineers crawling all over the aircraft that you can
without the already nervous pax being scared sh!tless and wondering why they licensed you in the first place.
I suspect were it tested in court, that they may find a difficulty with the legal presumption of innocence.
If the FOI had half a brain he would approach you when you were preparing the aircraft and way before the pax embarked or even appeared.
Like our local Police Farce over here once issued a directive to their officers to go to a certain location and monitor the behaviour of a group of "potential offenders" on the premise that one could only be either an "offender" or a "potential offender".
It's all in the mind you know.
My memory is a bit cranky on this one and they may well have changed the rules but unless;
as you quoted
"Where it appears to CASA that any aircraft is intended or likely to be flown in such circumstances that the flight would involve an offence against these regulations or be a cause of danger to persons in the aircraft or to persons or property on the ground, CASA may take such action by way of detention of the aircraft or such other action as is necessary for the purpose of causing the circumstances relating to the flight to be investigated or the aircraft to be inspected"
It raises the stakes a bit and sort of shifts the onus a lot, on the basis that they will have to show prior, that there would have been an offence etc etc .
They have no right beyond the above, to delay you in the lawful prosecution of your business.
If you are "legal" and you have taken all reasonable steps short of a complete tear down of the aircraft, I suggest they can go whistle dixie and I have told the odd one so on the odd occasion.
Otherwise what's the point of licensing you and your organisation to carry out the privileges for which they issued the license in the first place.
I thought those days were over. They can have the whole Dept waiting for me when I get back for all I care because at the end of the day you are either doing it right or you aren't.
There is no way, with all the bags and freight out on the tarmac, passengers being reweighed, documents being checked and engineers crawling all over the aircraft that you can
explain that this is the aviation equivalent of random breath tests, that you just happened to be one of the random inspections and are obliged under the aviation rules & regs to comply
I suspect were it tested in court, that they may find a difficulty with the legal presumption of innocence.
If the FOI had half a brain he would approach you when you were preparing the aircraft and way before the pax embarked or even appeared.
Like our local Police Farce over here once issued a directive to their officers to go to a certain location and monitor the behaviour of a group of "potential offenders"
on the premise that one could only be either an "offender" or a "potential offender".It's all in the mind you know.
To further clarify what is required as Checkboard explained above:
Refer CAR 139, CAR 302
The ONLY documentation you as a piston GA pilot out on the ramp are required to provide are the following (for domestic ops).
1. Your Licence
2. Your Medical
3. The MR
4. The Flight Manual
5. A Cargo Manifest.
(Note: - CAR 139 (2) obviates the requirement to carry a (domestic) passenger manifest, but CAR 302 requires it to be produced )
I was asked by one FOI if he could have a look in my flight folder (a bulging thing, with an ecclectic collection of maps, notes, weather from 3 weeks ago, old muesli bars, an expurgated edition of Hustler, and a copy of the NT news for comic relief). I gently declined by asking, "What document in particular are you after?"
He moved back outside the aircraft and did not ask to see any further documentation.
Be polite, helpful, but know your rights. Said FOI had also approached me as I was unloading pax and baggage. I asked him if he could look around the outside of the aircraft until I had supervised the unloading of pax and baggage (on a busy ramp) and when i was done I'd give him the docs and let him in the cockpit. He said that was fine, and complied with my request.
Although he might have been having a good day
Refer CAR 139, CAR 302
The ONLY documentation you as a piston GA pilot out on the ramp are required to provide are the following (for domestic ops).
1. Your Licence
2. Your Medical
3. The MR
4. The Flight Manual
5. A Cargo Manifest.
(Note: - CAR 139 (2) obviates the requirement to carry a (domestic) passenger manifest, but CAR 302 requires it to be produced
)I was asked by one FOI if he could have a look in my flight folder (a bulging thing, with an ecclectic collection of maps, notes, weather from 3 weeks ago, old muesli bars, an expurgated edition of Hustler, and a copy of the NT news for comic relief). I gently declined by asking, "What document in particular are you after?"
He moved back outside the aircraft and did not ask to see any further documentation.
Be polite, helpful, but know your rights. Said FOI had also approached me as I was unloading pax and baggage. I asked him if he could look around the outside of the aircraft until I had supervised the unloading of pax and baggage (on a busy ramp) and when i was done I'd give him the docs and let him in the cockpit. He said that was fine, and complied with my request.
Although he might have been having a good day
Last edited by compressor stall; 13th Jun 2002 at 03:37.
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Onr of our pilots was ramped at Finke on the weekend. CASA FOI's followed his aircraft in a MAF 210 from Alice and checked him on landing at Finke before pax had arrived. They then jumped back in the 210 and shadowed him all the way home. No hassells really but an expensive ramp check for CASA when the ramp could have been done at Alice before takeoff.
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stallie
Thats a better and more concise revelation of what to do than my cranky one. It's either the that damn lurgie or the elxir I'm taking for it that does it .
B58
?? where there's smoke there's fire.
Otherwise it would be an absolute waste/abuse of finite resources if it were so.
Were I the Area Manager I would want a pretty detailed justification thereof beyond "we thought it was good idea at the time"
Just because they're following you all the time doesn't mean you're paranoid
Thats a better and more concise revelation of what to do than my cranky one.
It's either the that damn lurgie or the elxir I'm taking for it that does it .B58
?? where there's smoke there's fire.
Otherwise it would be an absolute waste/abuse of finite resources if it were so.
Were I the Area Manager I would want a pretty detailed justification thereof beyond "we thought it was good idea at the time"
Just because they're following you all the time doesn't mean you're paranoid
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Yeah, ramp checks!
The boys stopped me the other day and had a look through all the usual stuff. Have to say that they were really good.
Three showed up and waited for us to taxi in, waited for the pax to leave and then asked if we were really busy. If we were, then they would wait until we returned.
This is the fourth time in 12 months, all in different a/craft at odd places. Anyway the experience has been the same in all cases, so I'm either lucky or some FOI;s are actually interested in getting along well with the aviation community.
The boys stopped me the other day and had a look through all the usual stuff. Have to say that they were really good.
Three showed up and waited for us to taxi in, waited for the pax to leave and then asked if we were really busy. If we were, then they would wait until we returned.
This is the fourth time in 12 months, all in different a/craft at odd places. Anyway the experience has been the same in all cases, so I'm either lucky or some FOI;s are actually interested in getting along well with the aviation community.
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Hmmm :D
Was once Ferrying an Islander to CNS from ABAF with fresh P&I and we got nabbed at TSV by the Colonel, and those from up there will know of whom I speak.....all he really wanted to know, was why there were no rego marks on the aircraft....The tower had called them on landing and the dears broke all speed records to get to the aircraft.
The reason I had no rego marks, I really can't recall, but I do recall the letter in the map pocket from CASA ABAF saying it was OK.....Shud have seen the look on the Colonels face
The reason I had no rego marks, I really can't recall, but I do recall the letter in the map pocket from CASA ABAF saying it was OK.....Shud have seen the look on the Colonels face
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I flew God knows how many new aircraft from little to big uns from one end of Oz to another with no external rego and nothing but the stainless steel "trade plates" VH EPG or EPH in the glove box with nary a squeak from anyone.
Confused the hell out the local toweries when the same rego turned up one day as C152 the next as say a C421C.
Dunno whether they still use the same system but it was simple then and it worked.
Mind you I made a point of getting as many of the FOIs as I could round up into every new one that came by, just to give them the experience of what a new aircraft flew, felt and smelt like.
Confused the hell out the local toweries when the same rego turned up one day as C152 the next as say a C421C.
Dunno whether they still use the same system but it was simple then and it worked.
Mind you I made a point of getting as many of the FOIs as I could round up into every new one that came by, just to give them the experience of what a new aircraft flew, felt and smelt like.
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gaunty.....I wish the plates were still used, but alas not....There are mumblings in the latest NPRM about it, but heard unofficially the other day, that the chances of anything happening with aircraft registration is at least 4 - 7 years off
