What would happen if .... ?
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What would happen if .... ?
Q: .. What would happen if CASA tried to enforce operators to pay the award ?
My theory is that a lot of operators would go bankrupt within 6 months, and the only ones left standing would be the ones who WERE charging properly for their services.
I also believe that if pilots were all paid accordingly, then a lot of unsafe aircraft would be grounded, as they should be. How many times have we heard of a pilot flying U/S aircraft because if they don't, then the next pilot would, and then the first pilot would be out of a job ?
How safe is it REALLY, to have a pilot working 8hours at a petrol station till 0400, then going home for a cup of coffee and signing on to do an 11 hour tour of duty ? and this is done 5 nights a week ? Sure, it is LEGAL...but is it really SAFE? and this all comes about because operators want to pay off their Porsche's etc. at the expense of some poor Bastard who just wants to earn a decent wage.
Q: ... Can CASA enforce a minimum wage onto operators?
There IS a GA Award floating about, and it IS signed by a LOT of operators, but how many of them ACTUALLY adhere to it ? Does being a signatury to the award entitle pilots to claim the rate of pay and allowances in it ? If not... why have the award to start with? If it DOES, then would the AFAP have more clout, and pilots be under less pressure ?
If all the above is true, WHY don't CASA make it a part of their AOC inspections, that they check to see that pilots ARE being paid properly ?
Many of you will say that I am in a fantasy land, and dreaming, but seriously, stop and think about some of the aircraft you have flown in the past and the pressure that YOU were under at the time! would this change things ?
My theory is that a lot of operators would go bankrupt within 6 months, and the only ones left standing would be the ones who WERE charging properly for their services.
I also believe that if pilots were all paid accordingly, then a lot of unsafe aircraft would be grounded, as they should be. How many times have we heard of a pilot flying U/S aircraft because if they don't, then the next pilot would, and then the first pilot would be out of a job ?
How safe is it REALLY, to have a pilot working 8hours at a petrol station till 0400, then going home for a cup of coffee and signing on to do an 11 hour tour of duty ? and this is done 5 nights a week ? Sure, it is LEGAL...but is it really SAFE? and this all comes about because operators want to pay off their Porsche's etc. at the expense of some poor Bastard who just wants to earn a decent wage.
Q: ... Can CASA enforce a minimum wage onto operators?
There IS a GA Award floating about, and it IS signed by a LOT of operators, but how many of them ACTUALLY adhere to it ? Does being a signatury to the award entitle pilots to claim the rate of pay and allowances in it ? If not... why have the award to start with? If it DOES, then would the AFAP have more clout, and pilots be under less pressure ?
If all the above is true, WHY don't CASA make it a part of their AOC inspections, that they check to see that pilots ARE being paid properly ?
Many of you will say that I am in a fantasy land, and dreaming, but seriously, stop and think about some of the aircraft you have flown in the past and the pressure that YOU were under at the time! would this change things ?
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Good post, good question. Many years ago, about 1969, DCA did persuade a helicopter company to stop pilots being paid a flying bonus, which was $6 per revenue hour, not bad for a 30 hour week. DCA said it encouraged pilots to exceed flight times, accept unserviceable helicopters and fly slowly which would cost the client more. I must say all except the latter was true. The company then cancelled the bonus system and increased the basic pay to take up some of the slack. Basically our pay has nothing to do with CASA but it is up to us and the AFAP to 'persuade' companies to do the right thing.
Apache,
Enforcement of award conditions for pilots is not the realm of CASA, unless it affects flight safety. The Australian Industrial Relations Commission (a federal agency) have this role; they have a comprehensive web site.
Companies do not have 'sign up' to awards per say, but may agree to an Enterprise Bargaining Agreement (EBA) with a union or other employees representative body, such as the AFAP. Many of the airlines and other aviation companies or representative bodies have agreed specific awards such as "QANTAS SHORT HAUL PILOTS AWARD, 2000" . Not having an EBA or agreement means that the company is obliged to pay the general award.
If you do not fall into a category of award under an EBA or similar agreement you will be covered by the "PILOTS’ (GENERAL AVIATION) AWARD 1998" or similar for helicopters .
Hope that this helps.
Gibbo
Enforcement of award conditions for pilots is not the realm of CASA, unless it affects flight safety. The Australian Industrial Relations Commission (a federal agency) have this role; they have a comprehensive web site.
Companies do not have 'sign up' to awards per say, but may agree to an Enterprise Bargaining Agreement (EBA) with a union or other employees representative body, such as the AFAP. Many of the airlines and other aviation companies or representative bodies have agreed specific awards such as "QANTAS SHORT HAUL PILOTS AWARD, 2000" . Not having an EBA or agreement means that the company is obliged to pay the general award.
If you do not fall into a category of award under an EBA or similar agreement you will be covered by the "PILOTS’ (GENERAL AVIATION) AWARD 1998" or similar for helicopters .
Hope that this helps.
Gibbo
Apache as Gibbo said CASA aren't interested in Pilots conditions unless it affects safety . If you had deep pockets you may be able to run a test case on a scenario like you paint that leads to an accident BUT ultimately it falls to the pilot as....
1.4 Notwithstanding anything contained in these Orders,a flight crew member shall not fly, and an operator shall not require that person to fly if either the flight crew member is suffering from, or, is likely to suffer from, fatigue or illness which may affect judgement or performance to the extent that safety may be impaired.
That last sentence is very interesting, would love a legal opinion on this but it sounds like it doesn't need to be proven that judgement or performance was impaired only that it may have been.
What does everyone else think?
Also as mentioned above most companies are roped in (kicking & screaming) to the Award and do not sign up.
http://www.osiris.gov.au search for Pilot's (GA) Award 1998.
1.4 Notwithstanding anything contained in these Orders,a flight crew member shall not fly, and an operator shall not require that person to fly if either the flight crew member is suffering from, or, is likely to suffer from, fatigue or illness which may affect judgement or performance to the extent that safety may be impaired.
That last sentence is very interesting, would love a legal opinion on this but it sounds like it doesn't need to be proven that judgement or performance was impaired only that it may have been.
What does everyone else think?
Also as mentioned above most companies are roped in (kicking & screaming) to the Award and do not sign up.
http://www.osiris.gov.au search for Pilot's (GA) Award 1998.
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Hasn't there just been an amendment (earlier this year), to the GA award (as seen at Osiris.gov.)? I seem to remember someone or other rabbiting-on about it. Can't find a link though...
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Some Excellent pionts raised here Apache.
You may not post often , but what you do post is always worthy of Consideration.
Certainly something I personally would like to see happen.
Problem is Guys will fly anything just "because it's flying"
Stand and have a look at how much your valuing you life next time you comply to fly some @#!$% pukked GA aircraft.
Whats the average age of a Chieftain now?????
around a 78 model , 24years old.
Problem is there will always be guys who will just wanna fly because they "like being free like a bird"!!!!!.......
Yeah that was a **** take.......
**** , no way I'm riskin my ass so some overweight owner of a GA company that undercuts everyone around Bankstown can enjoy Soy Latte's and decide on the Colour of his new Pajero.
Floggin some outta date four engined fixed pitch prop antique on tours around OZ.
Running an ex RPT Cheiftain across the Gulf to Whyalla on a shot engine.
One company worthy of praise is a Charter co at BK who's german owner looks after the gear properly .
Wow betide you if you fuk my sheeftain!!!!!!!!!
Someone else now into those ranks is a Bandit Operator also at BK that has now ejected the problem child from the fleet.
Looks as if he's all the more wiser now after theft hit the back pocket. Why mention him? because his charter rates are based on looking after his gear also.
When the golden plan comes together , man am I gunna have fun watchin theses guys Suffer .
Guys tell em to jam it and TEll the world that your the man!!!!!!!!!!
Sky Rockets in flight .........Afternoon Delight...........
In closing , would be a benefit to the Industry to have a Clean out .
You may not post often , but what you do post is always worthy of Consideration.
Certainly something I personally would like to see happen.
Problem is Guys will fly anything just "because it's flying"
Stand and have a look at how much your valuing you life next time you comply to fly some @#!$% pukked GA aircraft.
Whats the average age of a Chieftain now?????
around a 78 model , 24years old.
Problem is there will always be guys who will just wanna fly because they "like being free like a bird"!!!!!.......
Yeah that was a **** take.......
**** , no way I'm riskin my ass so some overweight owner of a GA company that undercuts everyone around Bankstown can enjoy Soy Latte's and decide on the Colour of his new Pajero.
Floggin some outta date four engined fixed pitch prop antique on tours around OZ.
Running an ex RPT Cheiftain across the Gulf to Whyalla on a shot engine.
One company worthy of praise is a Charter co at BK who's german owner looks after the gear properly .
Wow betide you if you fuk my sheeftain!!!!!!!!!
Someone else now into those ranks is a Bandit Operator also at BK that has now ejected the problem child from the fleet.
Looks as if he's all the more wiser now after theft hit the back pocket. Why mention him? because his charter rates are based on looking after his gear also.
When the golden plan comes together , man am I gunna have fun watchin theses guys Suffer .
Guys tell em to jam it and TEll the world that your the man!!!!!!!!!!
Sky Rockets in flight .........Afternoon Delight...........
In closing , would be a benefit to the Industry to have a Clean out .
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ICARUS, you say that most companies are "roped in to the award, kicking and screaming"... surely when they sign the award, they know that unless they pay the rate stipulated, then they are open slather to claims later on ?
Another point, which I failed to make previously, is that IF pilots ARE covered by the award, AND know that they are, then they will have the security in knowing that if they ground an aircraft because it is UNSAFE, they will NOT lose their jobs because of it. Also, they could be secure in the knowledge that another pilot will not be able to fly it (at a cheaper rate), in order to get hours, and please the boss!
I shall never ever forget what one CP hopeful said to me oneday when I complained about the DME being 10NM out!!!...."It's GA... get over it!"
That was pretty much the last time I ever spoke to that individual, except when he came crawling to me about 6 months later.
One more point.... companies that do NOT pay the award, you say Icarus, have an EBA or agreement with the pilots. If the agreement goes something like "YOU WILL GET PAID $*** per day/week, does this constitute an agreement ? and what of the finer points, like pilots NOT being able to be sued or held accountable in the event of an accident ? The GA award addresses points like this. With what has been happening on TV recently with the cost of insurance premiums skyrocketing, surely all pilots, casual and otherwise, should have some clarity on this matter!
It is all very well to point at the QF award/EBA, but what about the boys and girls just starting out in their careers... Do we not have an obligation to help them ? The last thing I want is for a SUPER KEEN pilot, flying a U/S aircraft to hit ME!
How deep does CASA actually look, when doing financial audits ? does PAY for pilots come into their forecasts ?or does CASA just say that this company is going to make $xxxxx this year, and that is enuff?
Don't misunderstand me, all I think is that it is time this industry had the broom put through it, and all the up and coming pilots can be assured that they are safe!
Another point, which I failed to make previously, is that IF pilots ARE covered by the award, AND know that they are, then they will have the security in knowing that if they ground an aircraft because it is UNSAFE, they will NOT lose their jobs because of it. Also, they could be secure in the knowledge that another pilot will not be able to fly it (at a cheaper rate), in order to get hours, and please the boss!
I shall never ever forget what one CP hopeful said to me oneday when I complained about the DME being 10NM out!!!...."It's GA... get over it!"
That was pretty much the last time I ever spoke to that individual, except when he came crawling to me about 6 months later.
One more point.... companies that do NOT pay the award, you say Icarus, have an EBA or agreement with the pilots. If the agreement goes something like "YOU WILL GET PAID $*** per day/week, does this constitute an agreement ? and what of the finer points, like pilots NOT being able to be sued or held accountable in the event of an accident ? The GA award addresses points like this. With what has been happening on TV recently with the cost of insurance premiums skyrocketing, surely all pilots, casual and otherwise, should have some clarity on this matter!
It is all very well to point at the QF award/EBA, but what about the boys and girls just starting out in their careers... Do we not have an obligation to help them ? The last thing I want is for a SUPER KEEN pilot, flying a U/S aircraft to hit ME!
How deep does CASA actually look, when doing financial audits ? does PAY for pilots come into their forecasts ?or does CASA just say that this company is going to make $xxxxx this year, and that is enuff?
Don't misunderstand me, all I think is that it is time this industry had the broom put through it, and all the up and coming pilots can be assured that they are safe!
Apache,
To re-iterate my earlier post, ALL pilots are covered by an award, EBA or agreement. If you are not represented by an organisation that has formed an agreement with your employer, then you will have a "general" award to cover your employment.
Employers do not have a choice in this, it is the law. Someone with some legal expertise in this area may be able to elaborate.
Gibbo
To re-iterate my earlier post, ALL pilots are covered by an award, EBA or agreement. If you are not represented by an organisation that has formed an agreement with your employer, then you will have a "general" award to cover your employment.
Employers do not have a choice in this, it is the law. Someone with some legal expertise in this area may be able to elaborate.
Gibbo
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Gibbo is correct.
I know of some pilot's in the top end that put this to test with their company because they wern't paying the award. After taking it to court, the company was made to pay all their pilots the award and it was backdated in some cases.
I think it's about time GA companies come to the realisation that this is the award and they must pay their pilot's accordingly.
Cheers,
Capt EFIS.
I know of some pilot's in the top end that put this to test with their company because they wern't paying the award. After taking it to court, the company was made to pay all their pilots the award and it was backdated in some cases.
I think it's about time GA companies come to the realisation that this is the award and they must pay their pilot's accordingly.
Cheers,
Capt EFIS.
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After looking at the award I am even more annoyed at how CASA can say we are a saftey type lot of people. Most instructors are paid a retainer (of a small amount) then a hourly rate for flying. If you instruct you have to fly in all types of s**t to make enough to live on. And before you jump in and say no one forces you to, get in the real world and realise instrutors have to eat to. If CASA said that you had to pay the award you would get experianced people training new pilots to high levels, therefore reducing accidents from poorly trained pilots forcing the crap places out of bussiness.
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Just for the record.... the only training school on a major Australian aerodrome to pay the award wage to their instructors is also the only one whose pilots don't feel forced to fly in poor conditions (where their students wouldn't learn a thing) and they also have the best maintained aircraft on the airfield (you only have to fly a crosshire to realise this).
They have never had an accident and have high staff morale, while they generally turn out the best/safest pilots on the airfield.
And no I don't work for them, but it says everything i think.
They have never had an accident and have high staff morale, while they generally turn out the best/safest pilots on the airfield.
And no I don't work for them, but it says everything i think.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
The common thread here - SAFETY (or the infringement thereof).
The responsible body for assuring and maintaining SAFETY - CASA.
But if you don't tell them, they'll never know about it!
If you DO tell them, and they do NOTHING, dob 'em in (to your local Federal pollie. They love that sort of thing.)
The responsible body for assuring and maintaining SAFETY - CASA.
But if you don't tell them, they'll never know about it!
If you DO tell them, and they do NOTHING, dob 'em in (to your local Federal pollie. They love that sort of thing.)
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Stormywx
Your reply is most corrett, talking to a chief enginner the other day and he said that bussines was always good from a certain school as they forced students and inexperianced instructors to fly in conditions that were not good and then the aircraft required engine overhauls. i.e what was that scaping nose on our last landing an why has the prop now got bent tips.
Your reply is most corrett, talking to a chief enginner the other day and he said that bussines was always good from a certain school as they forced students and inexperianced instructors to fly in conditions that were not good and then the aircraft required engine overhauls. i.e what was that scaping nose on our last landing an why has the prop now got bent tips.
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aerocom that is exactly right.
While the school paying award wages sends their instructors and students up in poor weather for experience, they never have that uncomfortable feeling of "we are never going to make it to an airport" or "we are never going to make it home before last light" or worst of all "we are not going to make it at all".
While the school paying award wages sends their instructors and students up in poor weather for experience, they never have that uncomfortable feeling of "we are never going to make it to an airport" or "we are never going to make it home before last light" or worst of all "we are not going to make it at all".
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There seem to be a lot of innuendos. What are you all trying to say?
I thought the industrial LAW required paying the award. Nothing less. If you work for less than the award you do all of us no favours. It would not matter whether CASA policed it or the Arbitration Commission, YOU need to tell them and it WILL stop.
So do us all a favour and notify the relevant authority.
I thought the industrial LAW required paying the award. Nothing less. If you work for less than the award you do all of us no favours. It would not matter whether CASA policed it or the Arbitration Commission, YOU need to tell them and it WILL stop.
So do us all a favour and notify the relevant authority.
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Pilots? - Still their own worst enemy.
Slit grandma's throat to fly - to get those hours - to hell with the other bloke - or sheila.
Accept whatever is tossed up and lump it.
It'll never change, and the operators will exploit it forever.
Slit grandma's throat to fly - to get those hours - to hell with the other bloke - or sheila.
Accept whatever is tossed up and lump it.
It'll never change, and the operators will exploit it forever.
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stormywx,
It seems you have been to every training school at every major Australian aerodrome to come to your conclusions. You also have the insight to know the dynamics of the relationships between every instructor and employer.
Come on mate, how can you say every instructor who is not paid the award feels, or is forced to fly in poor conditions. You obviously have no idea. Please don't insult people with generalisations.
BTW, I do agree with the moral of this thread.
It seems you have been to every training school at every major Australian aerodrome to come to your conclusions. You also have the insight to know the dynamics of the relationships between every instructor and employer.
Come on mate, how can you say every instructor who is not paid the award feels, or is forced to fly in poor conditions. You obviously have no idea. Please don't insult people with generalisations.
BTW, I do agree with the moral of this thread.
