Working Overseas
PPRuNeaholic
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a percentage of expatriates have bled some of these smaller nations dry over the years and have walked away with great material gain and have left nothing in return.
Ahhhhh... so that's what I should've been doing all this time...
Tool Time Two
What information do you have and what was your source?
Amelia_Flashtart
DFAT information could be wrong (didn't check though).
Pilots and IT are definitely still on Australia's "favoured" list for immigration. Latest list came out in April. 60 points (maximum level) for a pilot wanting to come to Australia. http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/sol2_1.htm
These categories are supposed to reflect the need for occupation requrements in Australia and allocate points appropriately. When there is an over supply they are supposed to be removed. Doesn't seem to have worked in the case of pilots though.
What information do you have and what was your source?
Amelia_Flashtart
DFAT information could be wrong (didn't check though).
Pilots and IT are definitely still on Australia's "favoured" list for immigration. Latest list came out in April. 60 points (maximum level) for a pilot wanting to come to Australia. http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/sol2_1.htm
These categories are supposed to reflect the need for occupation requrements in Australia and allocate points appropriately. When there is an over supply they are supposed to be removed. Doesn't seem to have worked in the case of pilots though.
Thread Starter
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Well a very merry bula vinaka Sir Dangles,
Set bro...?
Egypt Air only take moslems Dangles! You should know that by now having been rejected from them so many times!!!
Unfortunately, Egyptair wont recruit amphibious otter pilots (Ninja Turtles) either, as most of the flying is through unhospitable desert... !!
Thanks for comming.......
Hooroo and god bless.
Set bro...?
Egypt Air only take moslems Dangles! You should know that by now having been rejected from them so many times!!!
Unfortunately, Egyptair wont recruit amphibious otter pilots (Ninja Turtles) either, as most of the flying is through unhospitable desert... !!
Thanks for comming.......
Hooroo and god bless.
Last edited by Mark CRUISE; 20th May 2002 at 15:10.
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Rich-fine-green,
Let me dispel (sp?) a few common misperceptions about working in the US. Firstly, aviation is huge, but since Sept 11, it's pretty hard to find work other than flight instructing. Airlines over here advertise minimum hours...1200 for the regionals but that is exactly that..minimums. The majors...unlike Q hire with 5000+ hours generally...with 1000 turbine and that usually isn't caravan time. Right now only 2 regionals on the east coast are hiring and I don't know of any on the west coast hiring. In a nutshell it's gettin as bad as oz, especially with US Air and American on the brink of collapse. Perhaps the NZ government might bail us out
Let me dispel (sp?) a few common misperceptions about working in the US. Firstly, aviation is huge, but since Sept 11, it's pretty hard to find work other than flight instructing. Airlines over here advertise minimum hours...1200 for the regionals but that is exactly that..minimums. The majors...unlike Q hire with 5000+ hours generally...with 1000 turbine and that usually isn't caravan time. Right now only 2 regionals on the east coast are hiring and I don't know of any on the west coast hiring. In a nutshell it's gettin as bad as oz, especially with US Air and American on the brink of collapse. Perhaps the NZ government might bail us out
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CockpitJunkie
I am afraid you have misunderstood the immigration system. The list to which you are referring is known as the SOL (Skilled Occupations List) and basically lists all occupations considered "skilled" and that therefore need assessing by a regulating authority, in this case CASA. You quite rightly point out that the maximum points achievable for a pilot is 60, for a long standing ATPL holder.
A person applying to migrate in the skilled category, nominating their profession as "pilot" would be assessed in this way. In no way does it indicate that pilots are a favoured group in the eyes of DIMA.
I think what you are thinking about is the OTHER list, known as the MODL (Migration Occupations in Demand List) which does list those professions which are in short supply in Australia and for which prospective migrants may receive extra points. This list can be found at http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/modl.htm and does NOT include pilots and I belive never has.
So don't worry, Johnny Foriegner aint gonna nick your job mate.
Regards
Soupy
I am afraid you have misunderstood the immigration system. The list to which you are referring is known as the SOL (Skilled Occupations List) and basically lists all occupations considered "skilled" and that therefore need assessing by a regulating authority, in this case CASA. You quite rightly point out that the maximum points achievable for a pilot is 60, for a long standing ATPL holder.
A person applying to migrate in the skilled category, nominating their profession as "pilot" would be assessed in this way. In no way does it indicate that pilots are a favoured group in the eyes of DIMA.
I think what you are thinking about is the OTHER list, known as the MODL (Migration Occupations in Demand List) which does list those professions which are in short supply in Australia and for which prospective migrants may receive extra points. This list can be found at http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/modl.htm and does NOT include pilots and I belive never has.
So don't worry, Johnny Foriegner aint gonna nick your job mate.
Regards
Soupy
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> > Subject: Job application question:
You are driving along in your car on a wild, stormy night.
You pass by a bus stop, and you see three people waiting for the bus:
1. An old lady who looks as if she is about to die.
2. An old friend who once saved your life.
3. The perfect man (or) woman you have been dreaming about.
There can only be one passenger in your car and you can't return to the bus stop once you have left it (I don't know why, it's just part of this question!).
Which one would you choose to offer a ride to?
Think before you continue reading. This is a moral/ethical dilemma that was once actually used as part of a job selection process so your future could depend on how you answer this question.
You could pick up the old lady, because she is going to die,
and thus you should save her first; or you could take the old
friend because he once saved your life, and this would be the perfect chance to pay him back. However, you may never be able to find your perfect dream lover again.
The candidate who was hired (out of 200 applicants) had no trouble coming up with his answer.
> > WHAT DID HE SAY?(scroll down)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > He answered:
"I would give the car keys to my old friend, and let him take the old lady to the hospital. I would stay behind and wait for the bus with the woman of my dreams."
The moral of the story is that we can gain more if we are able to give up our stubborn thought limitations and "Think Outside of the Box."
You are driving along in your car on a wild, stormy night.
You pass by a bus stop, and you see three people waiting for the bus:
1. An old lady who looks as if she is about to die.
2. An old friend who once saved your life.
3. The perfect man (or) woman you have been dreaming about.
There can only be one passenger in your car and you can't return to the bus stop once you have left it (I don't know why, it's just part of this question!).
Which one would you choose to offer a ride to?
Think before you continue reading. This is a moral/ethical dilemma that was once actually used as part of a job selection process so your future could depend on how you answer this question.
You could pick up the old lady, because she is going to die,
and thus you should save her first; or you could take the old
friend because he once saved your life, and this would be the perfect chance to pay him back. However, you may never be able to find your perfect dream lover again.
The candidate who was hired (out of 200 applicants) had no trouble coming up with his answer.
> > WHAT DID HE SAY?(scroll down)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > He answered:
"I would give the car keys to my old friend, and let him take the old lady to the hospital. I would stay behind and wait for the bus with the woman of my dreams."
The moral of the story is that we can gain more if we are able to give up our stubborn thought limitations and "Think Outside of the Box."
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Soup Dragon:
I've just had a look at the MODL your link leads to, and whilst I can see the point in attracting IT managers, I can only express disbelief in categories such as chefs, HVAC technicians and hairdressers.
How many restaurants are going broke in Oz every week? Can you really attract immigrants to hairdressing, where wages are endemically low?
Doesn't make sense, just like it doesn't make sense that he Aussie head of state is British, yet UK passport holders are considered aliens
I've just had a look at the MODL your link leads to, and whilst I can see the point in attracting IT managers, I can only express disbelief in categories such as chefs, HVAC technicians and hairdressers.
How many restaurants are going broke in Oz every week? Can you really attract immigrants to hairdressing, where wages are endemically low?
Doesn't make sense, just like it doesn't make sense that he Aussie head of state is British, yet UK passport holders are considered aliens
Soup Dragon
I do understand the immigration system.
Anyone on the SOL is given an advantage, in this case 60 points puts them at the top in terms of the assessment against everyone else applying.
Sorry to disillusion you but the maximum points achievable is NOT just for a long standing ATPL holder.
Hopefully this won't start a flood of applications, but anyone holding a bare CPL is eligible for the 60 points. This applies regardless of whether the person trained in Australia (even easier for them) or trained overseas in an ICAO contracting state (and there are lots of these).
By being on the list it shows pilots as being favoured. Perhaps you should talk to Immigration and find out. I did.
What are everyone's thought now? Can always write a letter. Lots would help.
I do understand the immigration system.
Anyone on the SOL is given an advantage, in this case 60 points puts them at the top in terms of the assessment against everyone else applying.
Sorry to disillusion you but the maximum points achievable is NOT just for a long standing ATPL holder.
Hopefully this won't start a flood of applications, but anyone holding a bare CPL is eligible for the 60 points. This applies regardless of whether the person trained in Australia (even easier for them) or trained overseas in an ICAO contracting state (and there are lots of these).
By being on the list it shows pilots as being favoured. Perhaps you should talk to Immigration and find out. I did.
What are everyone's thought now? Can always write a letter. Lots would help.
Last edited by CockpitJunkie; 21st May 2002 at 22:52.
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Err C.J. I don't think you need to write a letter, there is no conspiracy.
I'm one of the guys you seem to be worried about who came from overseas some years ago and got in as a pilot. From what I remember, what soupdragon says is spot on. To get 60 points you do have to hold an ATPL and I think you must have had it for 2 or 3 years. If you have only got a CPL then you only get about 40 points or so.
Your point about anyone one the skills list being given an advantage seems wrong. If you want to migrate as a skilled person then you must have a skill thats on the list, by definition. And besides, you don't compete against each other, you compete to acheive the pass mark.
Beats me why any o'seas pilot would want to come here anyway these days given the state of the market.
I'm one of the guys you seem to be worried about who came from overseas some years ago and got in as a pilot. From what I remember, what soupdragon says is spot on. To get 60 points you do have to hold an ATPL and I think you must have had it for 2 or 3 years. If you have only got a CPL then you only get about 40 points or so.
Your point about anyone one the skills list being given an advantage seems wrong. If you want to migrate as a skilled person then you must have a skill thats on the list, by definition. And besides, you don't compete against each other, you compete to acheive the pass mark.
Beats me why any o'seas pilot would want to come here anyway these days given the state of the market.
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Edit: Have just seen BIK’s very comprehensive summary, thankyou.
Alpha: Strange isn’t it? I’ve no ideas why we are so desperately short of hairdressers, although if the one who scalped me last week is anything to go by then we could do with improving the quality.
Final: yes basically correct although the point I think CJ is trying to make is that why should a pilot be able to achieve a maximum of 60 points for skill against say 50 for a Geophysicist. More of that later.
Cockpit Junkie – I don’t need to speak to immigration to know that what I am saying is correct.
Fact: If somebody applies to migrate as a skilled independent migrant (Sub category 47 I think) then as Bik has posted, they have to pass a points test. Points are awarded for English language ability, age, skill, etc. The holder of a shiny new bare CPL, whether Australian or otherwise WILL NOT be awarded 60 points for skill.
Points awarded for skill equate broadly to levels of academic/technical achievement. The ATPL is seen as equating to a degree level qualification whereas the CPL is considered equivalent to a trade certificate. The exact number of points awarded then varies with the time that qualification has been held, up to a max of 60. One recent variation to the system is that a maximum of 10 further points can be awarded if the applicant holds a relevant Australian qualification.
Final went some way to explaining the point about the SOL. If you are applying as a skilled independent then therefore you must have a skilled that needs assessing that therefore will be on the SOL. If you do not have a skill then you will not be successful so to argue that anyone on the SOL has an advantage doesn’t make sense. I agree that what is interesting is that an ATPL holder can achieve a max of 60 points whereas e.g. a Geophysicist can only achieve say 50 points. I believe this is due to advice from the relevant trade bodies that give an indication of the level of experience, skill, study etc required to achieve that level of qualification.
(ATPL held in high regard?) But as has been mentioned this is largely irrelevant as the applicants are not competing against each other. If they have enough points and if the visa cap has not been reached then they will be awarded a migrant visa.
Basically, you do not need to be worried about a flood of CPL holders washing up on the shores. They are NOT seen as favoured group by the immigration department, for obvious reasons. (Hence they do not appear on the MODL as previously stated.)
Eagerly awaiting your comments.
Regards
Soup Dragon
Alpha: Strange isn’t it? I’ve no ideas why we are so desperately short of hairdressers, although if the one who scalped me last week is anything to go by then we could do with improving the quality.
Final: yes basically correct although the point I think CJ is trying to make is that why should a pilot be able to achieve a maximum of 60 points for skill against say 50 for a Geophysicist. More of that later.
Cockpit Junkie – I don’t need to speak to immigration to know that what I am saying is correct.
Fact: If somebody applies to migrate as a skilled independent migrant (Sub category 47 I think) then as Bik has posted, they have to pass a points test. Points are awarded for English language ability, age, skill, etc. The holder of a shiny new bare CPL, whether Australian or otherwise WILL NOT be awarded 60 points for skill.
Points awarded for skill equate broadly to levels of academic/technical achievement. The ATPL is seen as equating to a degree level qualification whereas the CPL is considered equivalent to a trade certificate. The exact number of points awarded then varies with the time that qualification has been held, up to a max of 60. One recent variation to the system is that a maximum of 10 further points can be awarded if the applicant holds a relevant Australian qualification.
Final went some way to explaining the point about the SOL. If you are applying as a skilled independent then therefore you must have a skilled that needs assessing that therefore will be on the SOL. If you do not have a skill then you will not be successful so to argue that anyone on the SOL has an advantage doesn’t make sense. I agree that what is interesting is that an ATPL holder can achieve a max of 60 points whereas e.g. a Geophysicist can only achieve say 50 points. I believe this is due to advice from the relevant trade bodies that give an indication of the level of experience, skill, study etc required to achieve that level of qualification.
(ATPL held in high regard?) But as has been mentioned this is largely irrelevant as the applicants are not competing against each other. If they have enough points and if the visa cap has not been reached then they will be awarded a migrant visa.
Basically, you do not need to be worried about a flood of CPL holders washing up on the shores. They are NOT seen as favoured group by the immigration department, for obvious reasons. (Hence they do not appear on the MODL as previously stated.)
Eagerly awaiting your comments.
Regards
Soup Dragon
Alpha Leader : "Aussie head-of-state, British..."? - not for verrry much longer!.
It may amuse you to note that aussies are equally treated as aliens in the UK (and quite correctly too, because we are).
Kindly leave the "chips on the shoulder" stuff to the experts - us!.
It may amuse you to note that aussies are equally treated as aliens in the UK (and quite correctly too, because we are).
Kindly leave the "chips on the shoulder" stuff to the experts - us!.
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lucille:
Given the "quality/history" of the present GG (selected by the Aussie govt, no less) I dread to think who might become head of state - although Fish-n-Chips Pauline could be an improvement.
Speaking about "please explain" and chips:
I didn't know that people around the Red Sea were experts in chips on shoulders.
Given the "quality/history" of the present GG (selected by the Aussie govt, no less) I dread to think who might become head of state - although Fish-n-Chips Pauline could be an improvement.
Speaking about "please explain" and chips:
I didn't know that people around the Red Sea were experts in chips on shoulders.
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BIK
Although the DIMA website is very comprehensive, I have found that in some areas it can be quite generic and gives “guidance” without getting into specifics. For example, “It does not make any reference to points being variable within an occupation depending upon standing”.
One of the key criteria for a migration assessment officer to assess is the potential employability of an applicant; in essence how quickly are they going to be able to contribute to the economy.
The skills of an applicant are assessed by the relevant trade body (CASA in this case). In practice however, CASA (and most other trade bodies) have already provided guidance to DIMA as to the points that should be awarded for a particular level of qualification and experience within the field. This information is then compiled in a book (and this is bugging me cos I can’t remember the title) that is held by DIMA missions overseas for migration case officers to refer to. Take the profession “doctor” for instance. There are various levels of qualification within the bracket, GP, surgeon, consultant plus many medical field specialisations. Obviously the potential employability of an applicant is going to depend hugely on the his/her specific quals & experience and so points awarded will vary accordingly. The 60 points for pilot are a maximum for a suitably qualified individual. (I believe ATPL held for 3 years and of course recent experience in the profession as you stated in your earlier post.)
If you ask nicely at a DIMA office I think you may be allowed to see the document, especially if you were to explain that you had eg a rellie who was a pilot wanting to migrate and wanting to know how many skill points he might achieve for his qualification level. (Worked for me). I think the document may also be held by organisations such as the National Office of Overseas Qualifications Recognition. NOOSR
NOOSR
Although the DIMA website is very comprehensive, I have found that in some areas it can be quite generic and gives “guidance” without getting into specifics. For example, “It does not make any reference to points being variable within an occupation depending upon standing”.
One of the key criteria for a migration assessment officer to assess is the potential employability of an applicant; in essence how quickly are they going to be able to contribute to the economy.
The skills of an applicant are assessed by the relevant trade body (CASA in this case). In practice however, CASA (and most other trade bodies) have already provided guidance to DIMA as to the points that should be awarded for a particular level of qualification and experience within the field. This information is then compiled in a book (and this is bugging me cos I can’t remember the title) that is held by DIMA missions overseas for migration case officers to refer to. Take the profession “doctor” for instance. There are various levels of qualification within the bracket, GP, surgeon, consultant plus many medical field specialisations. Obviously the potential employability of an applicant is going to depend hugely on the his/her specific quals & experience and so points awarded will vary accordingly. The 60 points for pilot are a maximum for a suitably qualified individual. (I believe ATPL held for 3 years and of course recent experience in the profession as you stated in your earlier post.)
If you ask nicely at a DIMA office I think you may be allowed to see the document, especially if you were to explain that you had eg a rellie who was a pilot wanting to migrate and wanting to know how many skill points he might achieve for his qualification level. (Worked for me). I think the document may also be held by organisations such as the National Office of Overseas Qualifications Recognition. NOOSR
NOOSR
Soup Dragon,
BIK_116.80 is right. There is no distinction between ATPL with 15000 hours and a CPL with 150.
CASA issue the same letter to both. Hence, both get 60 points.
You don't need the book to find out the points http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/sol2_1.htm
BIK_116.80 is right. There is no distinction between ATPL with 15000 hours and a CPL with 150.
CASA issue the same letter to both. Hence, both get 60 points.
You don't need the book to find out the points http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/sol2_1.htm
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At last the rabid anti foreigner comments have toned down on this forum. I despaired a few years ago, whenever someone foreign asked about moving to Oz, the comments were vile.
It is good to see we have grown up a little.
Oz is a great place ot live, but then are so are many others, each offers different things to those that live there. Sunshine is not the be all and end all.
It is good to see we have grown up a little.
Oz is a great place ot live, but then are so are many others, each offers different things to those that live there. Sunshine is not the be all and end all.
After some research:
Over 200 pilots in this category have actually met the requirements and been approved in the last 12 months. Experience from Airline Captains to low time CPL.
Maybe not a tidal wave, but doesn't do much for prospects in the industry for advancement and adds extra competition for Aus CPL to get a start.
It is a pity the same opportunities are not available to Aus pilots overseas as are given to pilots wanting to come in to Aus. IS there a shortage here still? Someone needs to tell the Govt.
Over 200 pilots in this category have actually met the requirements and been approved in the last 12 months. Experience from Airline Captains to low time CPL.
Maybe not a tidal wave, but doesn't do much for prospects in the industry for advancement and adds extra competition for Aus CPL to get a start.
It is a pity the same opportunities are not available to Aus pilots overseas as are given to pilots wanting to come in to Aus. IS there a shortage here still? Someone needs to tell the Govt.
I am not suggesting that pilots are not skilled. Not all occupations are listed on the SOL. I didn't notice Doctor/GP/Medical on the list.
The SOL is changed to reflect the demand for a particular occupation in Australian. An occupation in high demand receives the maximum points, and points can be reduced over time until there is no longer seen to be a need to bring in migrants under that occupation. Then the occupation is removed from the list.
The SOL is changed to reflect the demand for a particular occupation in Australian. An occupation in high demand receives the maximum points, and points can be reduced over time until there is no longer seen to be a need to bring in migrants under that occupation. Then the occupation is removed from the list.