midair collision
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Just read the Australian Story article,
It took not one but three journo clowns to come up with that load of crap.
Sincere condolences to all involved.
It took not one but three journo clowns to come up with that load of crap.
Sincere condolences to all involved.
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Misunderstandings
First off, condolences to family/ friends of the deceased.
I know that many of us in aviation are revolted by the quality of reporting by the journalists covering this unfortunate accident. I must admit that while reading The Australian's article, I too felt sick at what the eyewitness described and wondered how the Editors could have let that pass through to the public.
Before I carry on, I must admit that I am trained as a journalist but working in the aviation industry (student pilot too). I just feel it necessary to let all the media bashing aviation pundits out there know that not every journo is a pilot or even vaguely, remotely related to aviation.
Although their aims are to be informative and "telling-it-as-it-is", I believe there is a fine line that journalists have to constantly walk in deciding to report what is relevant to the incident/accident and what will incense the readers. As a student pilot, I find it disgusting to read of the gore as a result of the plane hitting the ground because I know full well that it could happen to any of us, including myself. That and the fact that the accident victim's families and friends could be reading it does not make a very pretty mental picture. Taking the stance as a Joe Bloggs reader, I would be equally disgusted at the excess information being given. Likewise as a journalist, I would not have included the gory details (even though it's a simple oneliner by a witness). I feel that this time, The Australian has outdone itself in dramatic journalism.
However, I would also like to draw attention to other media sources (AAP for eg) who provided accurate (in my professional opinion) reports of the accident. The West Australian published a pic of the crash site on Pg 11 and note the pixellation of the image at the impact point along the fuselage, just fore of the cargo window. (I am apt to think that it would show one of the deceased but fortunately it's been covered)
I know it doesn't help the journalism cause by the journo's ignorance of aviation and mispelling of aircraft names etc, but one must understand why. As I earlier mentioned, not every journo is a pilot or will know anything about aviation unless they are specifically assigned by the paper/publication as aviation writers.
The challenge of current affairs journalism is for the journos to constantly adapt to different scenarios and report the information in an objective as possible manner. (Once again before anyone interjects, I DO NOT necessarily agree with the content of the article The Australian published!) This objective reporting process may not happen all the time and is also dependent on the senior editorial decision-making process.
How would you feel if you had to do a story on the world mathematics olympiad
or perhaps a piece on revealing the secrets of the crude oil refining process? I know I'd be a fish out of water if ever I had to do anything apart from what I'm familiar with.
So while you may feel a particular loathing or disgust for the way journos have reported an aviation accident/ incident/ whatever, don't just go whinging to anyone who will listen to you. The people who need to hear it most are the journalists themselves. But don't just vent your frustration on them, it also helps if the feedback is constructive, lest the aviation community be labelled a pack of whingers. Keep working to build the relationship of understanding.
FLY SAFE.
I know that many of us in aviation are revolted by the quality of reporting by the journalists covering this unfortunate accident. I must admit that while reading The Australian's article, I too felt sick at what the eyewitness described and wondered how the Editors could have let that pass through to the public.
Before I carry on, I must admit that I am trained as a journalist but working in the aviation industry (student pilot too). I just feel it necessary to let all the media bashing aviation pundits out there know that not every journo is a pilot or even vaguely, remotely related to aviation.
Although their aims are to be informative and "telling-it-as-it-is", I believe there is a fine line that journalists have to constantly walk in deciding to report what is relevant to the incident/accident and what will incense the readers. As a student pilot, I find it disgusting to read of the gore as a result of the plane hitting the ground because I know full well that it could happen to any of us, including myself. That and the fact that the accident victim's families and friends could be reading it does not make a very pretty mental picture. Taking the stance as a Joe Bloggs reader, I would be equally disgusted at the excess information being given. Likewise as a journalist, I would not have included the gory details (even though it's a simple oneliner by a witness). I feel that this time, The Australian has outdone itself in dramatic journalism.
However, I would also like to draw attention to other media sources (AAP for eg) who provided accurate (in my professional opinion) reports of the accident. The West Australian published a pic of the crash site on Pg 11 and note the pixellation of the image at the impact point along the fuselage, just fore of the cargo window. (I am apt to think that it would show one of the deceased but fortunately it's been covered)
I know it doesn't help the journalism cause by the journo's ignorance of aviation and mispelling of aircraft names etc, but one must understand why. As I earlier mentioned, not every journo is a pilot or will know anything about aviation unless they are specifically assigned by the paper/publication as aviation writers.
The challenge of current affairs journalism is for the journos to constantly adapt to different scenarios and report the information in an objective as possible manner. (Once again before anyone interjects, I DO NOT necessarily agree with the content of the article The Australian published!) This objective reporting process may not happen all the time and is also dependent on the senior editorial decision-making process.
How would you feel if you had to do a story on the world mathematics olympiad
or perhaps a piece on revealing the secrets of the crude oil refining process? I know I'd be a fish out of water if ever I had to do anything apart from what I'm familiar with. So while you may feel a particular loathing or disgust for the way journos have reported an aviation accident/ incident/ whatever, don't just go whinging to anyone who will listen to you. The people who need to hear it most are the journalists themselves. But don't just vent your frustration on them, it also helps if the feedback is constructive, lest the aviation community be labelled a pack of whingers. Keep working to build the relationship of understanding.
FLY SAFE.
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BigSky, Aminta said:
To give benefit of the doubt, perhaps she simply meant to say "... they don't get separated by atc" ...... perhaps ...... it would be wrong and extremely crass to call this groundwork for a lawsuit.
I very much doubt a technical problem; knowing the pilot concernead and what a nice day it is and how cautious he was um i would say that there's somehow the meeting of two aircraft from the opposite sides of the aerodrome has occurred and they hadn't been separated by the air traffic controllers.
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Regardless what direct errors were made (if any), this is a tragic event for the family, the instructor/student in the other aircraft, and for all the people in the Sydney area that can identify with the airport and operators involved.
It isn't very appropraite to speculate on the causes until the final report comes out. Unfortunately its one of those things that shouldn't happen, but does from time to time. My condolences to those involved.
On the subject of obscene journalism in aviation - its nothing we haven't seen before! Sending in comments to The Australian sounds like a good idea.
Lancer
It isn't very appropraite to speculate on the causes until the final report comes out. Unfortunately its one of those things that shouldn't happen, but does from time to time. My condolences to those involved.
On the subject of obscene journalism in aviation - its nothing we haven't seen before! Sending in comments to The Australian sounds like a good idea.
Lancer
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midair collision
Heard Mick Toller on John Laws' program this morning and the best thing he said was that there had been seven people killed in road accidents in Queensland this weekend.
Thus why the over the top media coverage of the Bankstown tragedy?
Reality is that accidents in our industry get top billing because we are a "sexy industry" in the media view.
Don't be too hard on the reporters - they just do a job. Like everyone else they have a product to sell to make a quid.
But we do need to make sure we explain carefully when then things do go wrong so that people understand and are not scared off. Some of the things said re Sunday's accident leave a little to be desired in that regard.
A big SORRY to all family and friends.
Thus why the over the top media coverage of the Bankstown tragedy?
Reality is that accidents in our industry get top billing because we are a "sexy industry" in the media view.
Don't be too hard on the reporters - they just do a job. Like everyone else they have a product to sell to make a quid.
But we do need to make sure we explain carefully when then things do go wrong so that people understand and are not scared off. Some of the things said re Sunday's accident leave a little to be desired in that regard.
A big SORRY to all family and friends.
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I rang SMH this morning to express my disgust with the way this matter was reported. I said that that although I acknowledged that they had a duty to report on the matter, the extent to which it was reported was inappropriate (citing specific quotes re the state of the accident scene). I pointed out that if the matter had been a car accident it would not have been reported in that way.
The response? "We don't get many aircraft accidents and don't usually report car accidents. If you believe that this was inappropriate you should write a letter."
If you feel the same:
SMH email : [email protected]
SMH snail address: GPO Box 3771 Sydney 2001
I also note that Channel 9 news just had a computer generated graphic of the event, complete with explosion...
The response? "We don't get many aircraft accidents and don't usually report car accidents. If you believe that this was inappropriate you should write a letter."
If you feel the same:
SMH email : [email protected]
SMH snail address: GPO Box 3771 Sydney 2001
I also note that Channel 9 news just had a computer generated graphic of the event, complete with explosion...
Last edited by Foyl; 6th May 2002 at 08:17.
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I am a pilot who operates out of BK daily. Over my time at BK I have found the ATC's to be most professional, alert and they go beyond the call of duty to ensure the seperation of aircraft.
It highlights the need for pilots operating into a busy GAAP zone to understand the "sight and follow" procedures AND also to understand that ATC might not always warn you about aircraft operating onto the parallel runway.
It highlights the fact that BK IS A VISUAL zone (in VMC) and pilots need to maintain a lookout AT ALL TIMES. You can not allow yourself to be distracted while operating within the BK zone.
It highlights the fact that pilots MUST NOT drift off centerline during takeoff and MUST NOT overshoot their turns onto final approach.
Pilots must be aware that ATC are there to help you and to organise runway operations, it is your responsability to maintain serperation from other aircraft within the zone!
Finally media speculation does nothing to assist investigations or the healing process for those involved. All it does is make the travelling public uneasy about flying.
My thoughts not only go out to the family of the deceased, but also to the other pilots and ATC staff involved, they too are living with memories of a truely tragic event.
It highlights the need for pilots operating into a busy GAAP zone to understand the "sight and follow" procedures AND also to understand that ATC might not always warn you about aircraft operating onto the parallel runway.
It highlights the fact that BK IS A VISUAL zone (in VMC) and pilots need to maintain a lookout AT ALL TIMES. You can not allow yourself to be distracted while operating within the BK zone.
It highlights the fact that pilots MUST NOT drift off centerline during takeoff and MUST NOT overshoot their turns onto final approach.
Pilots must be aware that ATC are there to help you and to organise runway operations, it is your responsability to maintain serperation from other aircraft within the zone!
Finally media speculation does nothing to assist investigations or the healing process for those involved. All it does is make the travelling public uneasy about flying.
My thoughts not only go out to the family of the deceased, but also to the other pilots and ATC staff involved, they too are living with memories of a truely tragic event.
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TCAS in light GA aircraft???
:o
Just saw on the Channel Ten news that a certain Australian company is trying to distribute a TCAS warning system for GA aircraft.
How insensitive to those who have been deeply affected by the mid-air collision.
Mr Trevor Cook, your TCAS device would not have prevented this tragic accident. The fact that it only works on aircraft fitted with transponders means that the TOBAGO (Xponder on Sby)conducting circuits would've been stealth like!!!!!!.
Therefore your TCAS device is useless in the training circuit, which is where this accident occured.
I don't suppose you got those Captain Bars from a box of corn flakes did you????
Just saw on the Channel Ten news that a certain Australian company is trying to distribute a TCAS warning system for GA aircraft.
How insensitive to those who have been deeply affected by the mid-air collision.
Mr Trevor Cook, your TCAS device would not have prevented this tragic accident. The fact that it only works on aircraft fitted with transponders means that the TOBAGO (Xponder on Sby)conducting circuits would've been stealth like!!!!!!.
Therefore your TCAS device is useless in the training circuit, which is where this accident occured.
I don't suppose you got those Captain Bars from a box of corn flakes did you????
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Who is to blame?
According to recent Austalian cases involving two aircraft plus a air traffic controller, they can all be blamed.
Unfortunately aslong as no-one is directly to be blamed there may not be much change in the responsibilities of aviation personnell. We can't expect pilots and atc to keep an "adequate lookout" all the time.
refer Nichols V. Simmonds [1975]WAR1
supreme court of Western Australia
In this case the accident occured on base leg, all were to blame.
also Skyways Pty Ltd and Navair V. Commonwealth (1984) 57 A.L.R 657 (supreme court of N.S.W)
The accident in this case occurred during climbout of two aircraft. The atc'er was found to be the soul person negligent.
So was the accident close enough to the circuit to be someones responsibility????????????????
U2
According to recent Austalian cases involving two aircraft plus a air traffic controller, they can all be blamed.
Unfortunately aslong as no-one is directly to be blamed there may not be much change in the responsibilities of aviation personnell. We can't expect pilots and atc to keep an "adequate lookout" all the time.
refer Nichols V. Simmonds [1975]WAR1
supreme court of Western Australia
In this case the accident occured on base leg, all were to blame.
also Skyways Pty Ltd and Navair V. Commonwealth (1984) 57 A.L.R 657 (supreme court of N.S.W)
The accident in this case occurred during climbout of two aircraft. The atc'er was found to be the soul person negligent.
So was the accident close enough to the circuit to be someones responsibility????????????????
U2
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U2
Who is to blame?
Who is to blame?
Speculation is not only foolhardy but potentially further damaging to all unfortunate enough to be directly involved, as well as the confidence in industry as a whole!!
Answers will be found!! Wait for the investigation results!!!
My thoughts go to those who since have been pondering what could have happened differently which might have prevented the accident!. No amount of counselling and or reassurance can ever erase that all pervasive regularly occurring re-run of events.
I share your anguish!!
Be ever vigilant in everything we do whilst Free from the bonds of the Earth!!
Last edited by Capcom; 7th May 2002 at 12:55.
1stly my condolances to all involved.
Was rather ironic, I was briefing one of my students on tehe importance of not overshooting the centreline just 2 hrs before the tragedy happened.
Could a version of TCAS with a specific mode for GAAP operation work, I know separation is tight, but surely it could be devloped.
Just re read an article on the Balistic Recovery Shutes as fitted standard to Cirrus aircraft. Makes you wonder what could have been.......had a shute been fitted. I understand the engineering work has allready been done by the BRS manufacture on retro fitment to SE Cessnas, Piper etc.
Could we see them madatory fitment in the future??.
Was very erie doing circuits on Monday morning, could feel the tension in the tower and the airport was unsually subdued.
Over the next few days esspecially, we must make sure we support the guys/gals in the tower as best we can, can do this by ensureing we do everything by the book and displaying real airmanship.
The existance of Bankstown airport is under threat from the general public, we must prove to them that we are professional, abey the rules and highly skilled, not the cowboys that some have called us on talkback radio....."Raffertys Rules" as one ill informed lady called it on the radio(2GB) on Monday afternoon.
Fly safe everyone.
Was rather ironic, I was briefing one of my students on tehe importance of not overshooting the centreline just 2 hrs before the tragedy happened.
Could a version of TCAS with a specific mode for GAAP operation work, I know separation is tight, but surely it could be devloped.
Just re read an article on the Balistic Recovery Shutes as fitted standard to Cirrus aircraft. Makes you wonder what could have been.......had a shute been fitted. I understand the engineering work has allready been done by the BRS manufacture on retro fitment to SE Cessnas, Piper etc.
Could we see them madatory fitment in the future??.
Was very erie doing circuits on Monday morning, could feel the tension in the tower and the airport was unsually subdued.
Over the next few days esspecially, we must make sure we support the guys/gals in the tower as best we can, can do this by ensureing we do everything by the book and displaying real airmanship.
The existance of Bankstown airport is under threat from the general public, we must prove to them that we are professional, abey the rules and highly skilled, not the cowboys that some have called us on talkback radio....."Raffertys Rules" as one ill informed lady called it on the radio(2GB) on Monday afternoon.
Fly safe everyone.
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creek crosser
Says it all doesn't it, we have had a series of serious road accidents in the last week which attracted media attention but not at national level.
It's tragic and we all hope that they get to the bottom of it, but the consequences are the same for us all when we are in motion, regardless of the method of conveyance. If it goes pear shaped for whatever reason, we are in mortal peril.
We are not owed any tomorrows as a matter of right.
Heard Mick Toller on John Laws' program this morning and the best thing he said was that there had been seven people killed in road accidents in Queensland this weekend.
It's tragic and we all hope that they get to the bottom of it, but the consequences are the same for us all when we are in motion, regardless of the method of conveyance. If it goes pear shaped for whatever reason, we are in mortal peril.
We are not owed any tomorrows as a matter of right.
I think stormywx says it all...
=============================================
It highlights the fact that BK IS A VISUAL zone (in VMC) and pilots need to maintain a lookout AT ALL TIMES. You can not allow yourself to be distracted while operating within the BK zone.
It highlights the fact that pilots MUST NOT drift off centerline during takeoff and MUST NOT overshoot their turns onto final approach.
==============================================
There were 6 sets of eyes available, blindspots or no blindspots.
Noone would step foot in an a/c without dipping the tanks.
Why then do people continue to fly around in busy VMC airspace without reminding (in a very loud voice) everyone onboard the aircraft to keep their eyes peeled.
The old adage "keep your eyes on the road" is just as important in an a/c as it is in a car. Too many forget that these days or perha[ps they are not being taught that introspection can kill you.
A great tragedy nonetheless.
=============================================
It highlights the fact that BK IS A VISUAL zone (in VMC) and pilots need to maintain a lookout AT ALL TIMES. You can not allow yourself to be distracted while operating within the BK zone.
It highlights the fact that pilots MUST NOT drift off centerline during takeoff and MUST NOT overshoot their turns onto final approach.
==============================================
There were 6 sets of eyes available, blindspots or no blindspots.
Noone would step foot in an a/c without dipping the tanks.
Why then do people continue to fly around in busy VMC airspace without reminding (in a very loud voice) everyone onboard the aircraft to keep their eyes peeled.
The old adage "keep your eyes on the road" is just as important in an a/c as it is in a car. Too many forget that these days or perha[ps they are not being taught that introspection can kill you.
A great tragedy nonetheless.
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was just a matter of time
Really, when you consider the runway configiration at BK, it was just a matter of time before this happened. People going thru centerline when turning final is a common occurance. I have seen numerous airline crews misjudge the turn onto final; it is not a practice peculiar to the inexperienced. Whilst we must await the facts of this sad accident, we should , at this stage, ask if a risk analysis was done by CASA or Air Services as to the likelihood of (say) two aircraft overshooting the turn onto final and colliding. Whilst the probability of such occurance is small, it is evident that such a risk still exists.
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to the bright guy who tried to jump on the band wagon and sell his poxy TPAS system, great work D head, I am sure the family would have loved that sales pitch.
Pitty it back fired, ALL the pilots i talked to have said that after that great sales pitch none of them are ever going to get one of your systems and a couple were considering it prior to your sales pitch.
I noticed some one had a remark about getting those bars from a kelloges box, i dont even think he could have got them there, way to tacky, did you even have time to remove the price tag, would have helped if they were on straight and you had shoulders.
oz grade 3, The problem with cct traffic is that you have your transponder off, no matter how good your tcas system is it want pick you up unless you go to the expense of fitting military style radar to the aircraft which is not even an option.
Accidents happen it is one of those things, learn what you can from it and move on. some one made a mistake, like one i will gaurantee many of us have made and unfortunatley the margin for error wasn't there on this occasion. that is what it amounts to.
I am sad it happened, my feelings go out to the family, and i am utterly disgusted at the tool who took advantage of the situation,
I feel we should make a stand against this sort of sales pitch, I for one will now never purchase TPAS, and none of my mates, or even my boss will 
:o
Pitty it back fired, ALL the pilots i talked to have said that after that great sales pitch none of them are ever going to get one of your systems and a couple were considering it prior to your sales pitch.
I noticed some one had a remark about getting those bars from a kelloges box, i dont even think he could have got them there, way to tacky, did you even have time to remove the price tag, would have helped if they were on straight and you had shoulders.
oz grade 3, The problem with cct traffic is that you have your transponder off, no matter how good your tcas system is it want pick you up unless you go to the expense of fitting military style radar to the aircraft which is not even an option.
Accidents happen it is one of those things, learn what you can from it and move on. some one made a mistake, like one i will gaurantee many of us have made and unfortunatley the margin for error wasn't there on this occasion. that is what it amounts to.
I am sad it happened, my feelings go out to the family, and i am utterly disgusted at the tool who took advantage of the situation,
I feel we should make a stand against this sort of sales pitch, I for one will now never purchase TPAS, and none of my mates, or even my boss will
:o