View Poll Results: Airline pilot positions should be filled IAW ?
Seniority in the Company.
41
28.87%
A Mix of Seniority, Experience & Demonstrated Performance
79
55.63%
Experience & Demonstrated Performance.
22
15.49%
Voters: 142. This poll is closed
Seniority or Experience & Performance
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Just in case those prior on this page missed page 1, go back and read Kaptin M's comments.
If you don't understand what he said, ask for confirmation. If you still don't understand, have a great career, BECAUSE HE'S DEAD BLOODY RIGHT!!
Having seen what has happened to those who allegedly "had the right stuff" and those passed over for promotion as "unsuitable" in earlier days, stick with a seniority system which gives you a chance to train for promotion! NOTE: it doesn't give you promotion, as some seem to think. In any responsible company, it gives you a crack at the training.
People choose and are also affected by circumstance in their career paths. The aviation world offers both the paths to promotion discussed here. Having reached a few years in the game and keenly observed, those who've had the most stable careers, professionally and financially, have been those who've stuck with a 'major' which honours seniority for a promotion place.
G'day
If you don't understand what he said, ask for confirmation. If you still don't understand, have a great career, BECAUSE HE'S DEAD BLOODY RIGHT!!
Having seen what has happened to those who allegedly "had the right stuff" and those passed over for promotion as "unsuitable" in earlier days, stick with a seniority system which gives you a chance to train for promotion! NOTE: it doesn't give you promotion, as some seem to think. In any responsible company, it gives you a crack at the training.
People choose and are also affected by circumstance in their career paths. The aviation world offers both the paths to promotion discussed here. Having reached a few years in the game and keenly observed, those who've had the most stable careers, professionally and financially, have been those who've stuck with a 'major' which honours seniority for a promotion place.
G'day
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MMMMMM
I don't remember saying that seniority enhanced safety. To quote, "...promotion out of seniority .may create a bad environment in the cockpit" was just an idea. Listen to those who have experienced both.
Live long & prosper
Laz
Live long & prosper
Laz
Last edited by Lazarus; 4th May 2002 at 08:41.
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There is only one way, seniority.... Unlike most other professions this is a mechanical apptitude, nothing else.. Some can and some can not.. Those who can and pass the quarter cyclic deserve a chance at command. It is unfair and really not needed that pilots come over the top of them. I have been involved in both systems and to me the best way is based on time served ( provided you pass you checks ).
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Unlike most other professions this is a mechanical apptitude, nothing else..
I have seen plenty of people that can pole an aeroplane around the sky very well, yet fail dismally in flight management, disciplined attitudes & actions, decision making, CRM & many other aspects that are required in this profession. The skill of manipulating the controls is only a minor part of the job.
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By mechanical aptitude i mean physical and standard procedures. These days airline life has little room for inventive thought. SOP's, flying " the numbers" and handling the aircraft as directed is 99% of the life of an airline pilot. The checks presented to the pilots do not require much more than following the book. So in the eyes of the check captains you must simply adhere to what is trained. In this sort of environment the majority of pilots fall into the normal range. Some may excel, some my fail but most are the average and therefore seniorty to select for upgrades and new aircraft is the fairest way. As many have said, seniority gives everyone the chance to train for new things without favour or prejudice.
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The day you join an airline with a seniority system guarantees the OPPORUNITY for a command at a point in the future designated by that joining date, all else being equal.
That is all it does.
Performance is up to the individual.
Any other system is guaranteed to promote discrimination.
I'll bet in the brave new world of the rapidly emerging SEA operators, the guys who fork out the most USD to the Fleet Manager and above, will get the first opportunity, and a guaranteed check-out irrespective of standards.
Oh, and I'll bet the log books of those guys are really and truly accurate too.
That is all it does.
Performance is up to the individual.
Any other system is guaranteed to promote discrimination.
I'll bet in the brave new world of the rapidly emerging SEA operators, the guys who fork out the most USD to the Fleet Manager and above, will get the first opportunity, and a guaranteed check-out irrespective of standards.
Oh, and I'll bet the log books of those guys are really and truly accurate too.
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Having experienced both systems, I am a convert now to seniority.
In the military (RAAF) I witnessed way too many decent operators passed over because they were not in the right 'club'. There was not always malicious intent, but the desire to progress a 'mate' over a 'non-mate' seemed to often be the deciding factor despite contradicting differences in ability. Unfortunately we humans seem to be a little bit too susceptible to these types of pressures (even though we often don't realise it).
The seniority system still requires a certain minimum standard to be met to be eligible for promotion, and there's no guarantee that you'll pass. But I see it a little bit like the 'presumption of innocence'. At least you get to have a go.
In the military (RAAF) I witnessed way too many decent operators passed over because they were not in the right 'club'. There was not always malicious intent, but the desire to progress a 'mate' over a 'non-mate' seemed to often be the deciding factor despite contradicting differences in ability. Unfortunately we humans seem to be a little bit too susceptible to these types of pressures (even though we often don't realise it).
The seniority system still requires a certain minimum standard to be met to be eligible for promotion, and there's no guarantee that you'll pass. But I see it a little bit like the 'presumption of innocence'. At least you get to have a go.
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First of all I have to say I agree with SeaEagle on the fact that flying is a lot more than just manipulative skills.
However if the training system is run properly covering all areas of training and checking, then a number of pilots (not all) should be able to be presented for training. I have to ask, what is the problem in selecting these pilots for command training in order of seniority? It certainly prevents favouritism and back door methods of getting ahead from inside or outside the company. (Apparently not uncommon in the early days of aviation).
Any comments SeaEagle?
However if the training system is run properly covering all areas of training and checking, then a number of pilots (not all) should be able to be presented for training. I have to ask, what is the problem in selecting these pilots for command training in order of seniority? It certainly prevents favouritism and back door methods of getting ahead from inside or outside the company. (Apparently not uncommon in the early days of aviation).
Any comments SeaEagle?
Last edited by Sopwith Pup; 7th May 2002 at 03:06.
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Who Moved My Cheese ?
Is it appropriate to have someone with only some sim and backseat time considered for a F/O position before someone that has thousands of hours in Command on type and has changed companies through no fault of his /her own? ( I do believe they would need to do a period of familiarisation with the Company SOP's, administrative practices and culture. ) Or a similar situation for a Command position.
I don't like seeing good people and experience being shut out of the industry. To me it is a waste and the Aviation Industry will be worse off because it.
Despite what I think - Company Executives, in demanding more flexibility and financially economic labour structures are about to move away from the pure seniority system. Weather that’s by a 'B' scale system or 'low cost subsidiary'. It won't happen overnight but it will happen.
Be prepared, your cheese is about to be moved. 
Ref book- Title: Who Moved My Cheese? - Author: Dr Spencer Johnson - ISBN: 0-09-188376-8
I don't like seeing good people and experience being shut out of the industry. To me it is a waste and the Aviation Industry will be worse off because it.
Despite what I think - Company Executives, in demanding more flexibility and financially economic labour structures are about to move away from the pure seniority system. Weather that’s by a 'B' scale system or 'low cost subsidiary'. It won't happen overnight but it will happen.
Be prepared, your cheese is about to be moved.
Ref book- Title: Who Moved My Cheese? - Author: Dr Spencer Johnson - ISBN: 0-09-188376-8
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Sorry SeaEagle I can't agree with doing away with the seniority system. I'm sure that the bean counters would jump at the chance if they could, but the gain would only be short term.
In my view if there were no seniority system, it would breed opportunism and discontent amongst the pilots, in the end nobody would win.
In my view if there were no seniority system, it would breed opportunism and discontent amongst the pilots, in the end nobody would win.
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Sea Eagle,
Reading into your posts it would seem that you are referring to perhaps an ex AN pilot who joins QF and has to bide their time till their seniority allows them a promotion.
If this is the case and the shoe was on the other foot do you think there would be support for such a scheme in the old Ansett? How many long term F/O's in the old Ansett would have liked to see QF Captains jumping them for command? Not many......
Seniority takes the brown nosing out of line promotion and for that reason alone it is a good way to work promotion for pilots. If you feel so strongly about this issue and you are now in QF and this is your opinion, come out from behind the anonimity and present your ideas at an AIPA Committee Meeting. Anonymous whining on this bulletin board will not further any cause, not just this one.
If you don't like seniority, go somewhere where they don't use that system. Otherwise you will be in for too much stress as you wait your turn.
Reading into your posts it would seem that you are referring to perhaps an ex AN pilot who joins QF and has to bide their time till their seniority allows them a promotion.
If this is the case and the shoe was on the other foot do you think there would be support for such a scheme in the old Ansett? How many long term F/O's in the old Ansett would have liked to see QF Captains jumping them for command? Not many......
Seniority takes the brown nosing out of line promotion and for that reason alone it is a good way to work promotion for pilots. If you feel so strongly about this issue and you are now in QF and this is your opinion, come out from behind the anonimity and present your ideas at an AIPA Committee Meeting. Anonymous whining on this bulletin board will not further any cause, not just this one.
If you don't like seniority, go somewhere where they don't use that system. Otherwise you will be in for too much stress as you wait your turn.
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This one is going to stir the pot!
Seniority killed Ansett and was about to kill Kendells if Ansett hadn't got in first.
Ansett had bad management when they had far to many types and the seniority system kept too many pilots from being productive, pre and post 89.
Kendells tried to train far too many CRJ pilots who failed. This made it very hard to ever make the aircraft profitable.
So much for all of you who think that just because you are an airlines with a Training and Checking system, the Bad Apples whould be weeded out before Command training!
Reallity is not that symplistic.
Seniority killed Ansett and was about to kill Kendells if Ansett hadn't got in first.
Ansett had bad management when they had far to many types and the seniority system kept too many pilots from being productive, pre and post 89.
Kendells tried to train far too many CRJ pilots who failed. This made it very hard to ever make the aircraft profitable.
So much for all of you who think that just because you are an airlines with a Training and Checking system, the Bad Apples whould be weeded out before Command training!
Reallity is not that symplistic.
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Nils, dear boy - or girl - seniority didn't kill AN.
Fleet mix is a management choice, not a reason to denounce the seniority system.
Freeze periods limit the training costs - imperfect though they may be.
What killed AN, was the Dickensian theory.
If you earn 20 pounds a year, and spend 19 pounds 19 and six -happiness.
If you earn 20 pounds a year, and spend 20 pounds and sixpence - severe strain on budget.
And it wasn't what they paid the scabs. It was the never ending (they thought) pot of gold loaned from institutions, without the thought that the company was nought but an empty shell.
Fleet mix is a management choice, not a reason to denounce the seniority system.
Freeze periods limit the training costs - imperfect though they may be.
What killed AN, was the Dickensian theory.
If you earn 20 pounds a year, and spend 19 pounds 19 and six -happiness.
If you earn 20 pounds a year, and spend 20 pounds and sixpence - severe strain on budget.
And it wasn't what they paid the scabs. It was the never ending (they thought) pot of gold loaned from institutions, without the thought that the company was nought but an empty shell.
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Seniority/Experience/Performance
Cannot believe how many times this is raised.
It is always been an inept proposition.
All three are equally valid for job and or task selection criteria and always have been.
The question is in fact:
" Why do some organisations apply one to the detriment of the others?"
AND
I think 'that' is a meaning of the Universe question.
OR
That really any organisation will select the person they think they can most squeeze utility out of.
It is always been an inept proposition.
All three are equally valid for job and or task selection criteria and always have been.
The question is in fact:
" Why do some organisations apply one to the detriment of the others?"
AND
I think 'that' is a meaning of the Universe question.
OR
That really any organisation will select the person they think they can most squeeze utility out of.
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Nothing is MORE CERTAIN then CHANGE.
Jakethemuss - I am not ex AN. Sorry to disappoint you.
Nothing is MORE CERTAIN then CHANGE.
I would like to identified a number of interesting observations . (which the majority of posts here only reinforce).[list=1][*]There are many pilots that have elevated 'Seniority' to a god like status and rigidly hold to it no matter what.
[*]There is a common fear that any deviation from Seniority will lead to the opposite extreme of nepotism, cronyism, brown-nosing, etc.
[*]There is a reluctance to consider or even talk about alternatives.
[*]Airlines are driven to be competitive, (not just QF but companies worldwide) as part of this 'Pure Seniority' is a burden they would like to be rid of. They are obversely trying to develop ways around it. Contract crews, B scale employees & low cost subsidiaries achieve this as well as many other company objectives.[/list=1]
I still see people bitter and twisted over the events of '89. They are emotionally and physiologically scared for the rest of their lives. This is very sad. I would like to think that we have progressed and have learned that being inflexible and narrow minded in a changing environment only leads to destruction.
I had hoped to stimulate debate on some alternatives. So in some small way we could contribute to the change which will affect us, rather than just being subject to the change when it happens. 
Nothing is MORE CERTAIN then CHANGE.
I would like to identified a number of interesting observations . (which the majority of posts here only reinforce).[list=1][*]There are many pilots that have elevated 'Seniority' to a god like status and rigidly hold to it no matter what.
[*]There is a common fear that any deviation from Seniority will lead to the opposite extreme of nepotism, cronyism, brown-nosing, etc.
[*]There is a reluctance to consider or even talk about alternatives.
[*]Airlines are driven to be competitive, (not just QF but companies worldwide) as part of this 'Pure Seniority' is a burden they would like to be rid of. They are obversely trying to develop ways around it. Contract crews, B scale employees & low cost subsidiaries achieve this as well as many other company objectives.[/list=1]
I still see people bitter and twisted over the events of '89. They are emotionally and physiologically scared for the rest of their lives. This is very sad. I would like to think that we have progressed and have learned that being inflexible and narrow minded in a changing environment only leads to destruction.
I had hoped to stimulate debate on some alternatives. So in some small way we could contribute to the change which will affect us, rather than just being subject to the change when it happens.
Grandpa Aerotart
Nils Crane,
I recently met a Canadian Bombadier pilot at who was involved in the Kendals CRJ intro. Over several squillion beers he told me the following;
1/. Nothing was wrong with the Kendals pilots who were chosen on seniority to fly the CRJ. They were good guys/girls who flew well in his opinion.
2/. He had to attend a performance lecture given by AN mainline folks who were involved in the CRJ program. He related that a great deal of what was espoused at the performance class was unmittigated crap..........when he questioned the AN chappy on the veracity of the information that was being passed as gospel the statement was made..."We knew we would have trouble with YOU!!"
Barry was one of the Bombadier Performance Test Pilots!!!!
Kendal's CRJ program and it's pilots were done over by mainline tossers who believed only they should fly jets......and by mainline management who put the aircraft on the wrong routes.
The Seniority system had nothing to do with it!!!
Chuck.
I recently met a Canadian Bombadier pilot at who was involved in the Kendals CRJ intro. Over several squillion beers he told me the following;
1/. Nothing was wrong with the Kendals pilots who were chosen on seniority to fly the CRJ. They were good guys/girls who flew well in his opinion.
2/. He had to attend a performance lecture given by AN mainline folks who were involved in the CRJ program. He related that a great deal of what was espoused at the performance class was unmittigated crap..........when he questioned the AN chappy on the veracity of the information that was being passed as gospel the statement was made..."We knew we would have trouble with YOU!!"
Barry was one of the Bombadier Performance Test Pilots!!!!
Kendal's CRJ program and it's pilots were done over by mainline tossers who believed only they should fly jets......and by mainline management who put the aircraft on the wrong routes.
The Seniority system had nothing to do with it!!!
Chuck.
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Boys and Girls
Learn by the past. ANSETT had no system post dispute.
In the end it allowed Nepotism to run wild. Standards and performance meant nothing, experience and qualifications meant nothing. There were many deserving who were "selected" and just as many "mates" who should have not.
If seniorty was used for this (or any redundancy) it would at least be transparent and accountable.
Learn by the past. ANSETT had no system post dispute.
In the end it allowed Nepotism to run wild. Standards and performance meant nothing, experience and qualifications meant nothing. There were many deserving who were "selected" and just as many "mates" who should have not.
If seniorty was used for this (or any redundancy) it would at least be transparent and accountable.
