Red Rat Integration
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Red Rat Integration
Just curious if there is any talking with regards to the integration issue going on at the moment. Between qlink and the mainline.
I realise that EASTERN tried and failed several years ago. I am led to believe due to them being substandard to the mainline crews.
Surely that arguement has been put to rest with Impulse crewing a 717 (with a similar sub Q standard crew ) and doing a remarkably good job at that.
Wouldn't it be a better idea to have Qlink integrated (and under control)and not ostracised as, dare I say it , they would more than likely crew a 737 for a similar pay scale to Virgin.
I wonder if Q management know this.
I realise that EASTERN tried and failed several years ago. I am led to believe due to them being substandard to the mainline crews.
Surely that arguement has been put to rest with Impulse crewing a 717 (with a similar sub Q standard crew ) and doing a remarkably good job at that.
Wouldn't it be a better idea to have Qlink integrated (and under control)and not ostracised as, dare I say it , they would more than likely crew a 737 for a similar pay scale to Virgin.
I wonder if Q management know this.
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The fact that anyone would think that Qantas regional crews were "substandard" to QF mainline is quite bizarre. QF mainline have a different set of selection criteria, that's all. There is no distinction in the eyes of the public between a 737 bearing a Qantas logo and a Dash 8 bearing a Qantas logo. They're all Qantas - one's a bigger plane going to a major destination, the other's a smaller plane going to a smaller destination.
I wonder how that argument would stand up in court.
QF Management......."Your Honour, the pilots operating our slightly smaller 717 aircraft are not of the same calibre as the pilots crewing our slightly larger 737 aircraft. The incident which happened on the 717 can therefore be explained in terms of the crew being less capable/experienced/educated."
Should the travelling the public be told before they board a QF regional flight, then, that they're travelling on a sub-QF-standard service? Wonder where QF liability would begin and end on this one.
Certainly the current shake-up at Southern might see this myth dispelled as I'm sure there's a strong legal argument for QF mainline to employ the 146 crews.
The 'we're better than you' myth has obviously been perpetrated by QF pilots with large egos who are enjoying huge salaries they need to justify. QF management evidently don't want to bear the costs of retraining crews they've already trained. Hence the drain of pilots off the CRJ.
I wonder how that argument would stand up in court.
QF Management......."Your Honour, the pilots operating our slightly smaller 717 aircraft are not of the same calibre as the pilots crewing our slightly larger 737 aircraft. The incident which happened on the 717 can therefore be explained in terms of the crew being less capable/experienced/educated."
Should the travelling the public be told before they board a QF regional flight, then, that they're travelling on a sub-QF-standard service? Wonder where QF liability would begin and end on this one.
Certainly the current shake-up at Southern might see this myth dispelled as I'm sure there's a strong legal argument for QF mainline to employ the 146 crews.
The 'we're better than you' myth has obviously been perpetrated by QF pilots with large egos who are enjoying huge salaries they need to justify. QF management evidently don't want to bear the costs of retraining crews they've already trained. Hence the drain of pilots off the CRJ.
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DJ.... As a mainline driver with QF, and one with a 'little' earlier exposure to the world outside QF. I hope you will believe me when I say that I've never heard anyone (other than a couple of youngsters straight out of 'pilot kindergarten' with their head still up their rrrr's) suggest they were in anyway better than anyone else, especially our collegues in QLink and others. I had the pleasure of working in the past, with a good many (Impulse, Southern, Sunstate, Eastern) of these guys and one day I hope to be half as good as a lot of the them are now, (especially 'J. Shags Howell')
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With the demise of Ansett and the very ill Kendall/Hazo's - who are QF using as their pool of qualified applicants, the ex AN guys pool will dry up reasonably quickly.
Where will they recruit their ATPL multi-crew experienced people from? Will they start recruiting the more junior experienced guys or will the finally bite the bullet and start bringing more guys thru from Qantaslink (whatever form that ends up as
).
Where will they recruit their ATPL multi-crew experienced people from? Will they start recruiting the more junior experienced guys or will the finally bite the bullet and start bringing more guys thru from Qantaslink (whatever form that ends up as
).
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You want a job with mainline?
1) Satisfy the prerequisites; hsc, senior comms and so on.
Ain't got em ? Go get em !
2) Apply like everyone else.
3) Study like a B..ch. Pass the psych test, fly the sim and prove
to a couple of pilots you know your stuff.
4) Pass the medical.
5) Be nice to the gals in recruiting!!!
Thats the way Qf play the game and they own the bat and ball.
No-one is prevented from applying and no-one deserves any shortcuts. In a competitive world thats the way it goes!
As for the Cadet scheme..............
1) Satisfy the prerequisites; hsc, senior comms and so on.
Ain't got em ? Go get em !
2) Apply like everyone else.
3) Study like a B..ch. Pass the psych test, fly the sim and prove
to a couple of pilots you know your stuff.
4) Pass the medical.
5) Be nice to the gals in recruiting!!!
Thats the way Qf play the game and they own the bat and ball.
No-one is prevented from applying and no-one deserves any shortcuts. In a competitive world thats the way it goes!
As for the Cadet scheme..............
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The Q cadet scheme is irrelevant. I am curious as to peoples thoughts on Q link tech crew integration or these crews flying Q 737's for a similar pay scale to Virgin. You can't tell me that Q management are not seriously looking into this as we write.
Cheers
Cheers
:o 
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I still for the life of me wonder why a PROVEN product like the regional pilot group, who are in the Qantas approved cyclic simulator program need to leave there current Qantas position and undergo retesting and reapply for another Qantas position. What did the Australian airlines pilots who joined some 12 years ago have to do? I can understand the requirement for a HSC for a cadet but for someone already employed what does it mean?
Nunc est bibendum
LOL, Did I wind you up so much that I got you to register under a new alias or for the first time Jerry?
Insecure about many things, being a former cadet from 1991/92 is not one of them.
Insecure about many things, being a former cadet from 1991/92 is not one of them.
While I have no doubt that pilots in regionals are as adept/safe/licensed/skillful/thorough as other pilots anywhere, especially QF mainline as that is the topic here...life is not that simple. I see a couple of (not-necessarily-'fair') reasons why the floodgates will not open to Q-link pilots.
1. Every organisation hires to initial minimum eligibility requirements..as Kubin said; QF's are well known...meet 'em and you'll get an interview.
2. Why would mainline erode the profitability of its wholly owned subsidiaries by offering auto-progression, and thereby suffer the knock-on costs of training throughout every level of the organisation?
3. The QF mainline pilots association has a sound, workable, firm-but-fair agreement with QF which, among other things, specifies reasonable conditions and compromises of assignments and choices for a career in the company. At present, and for various reasons, regional pilot groups do not come under that agreement.
4. There are many pilots in QF mainline who started in regionals/QF-link...see point 1.
I'm not trying to belittle anyone, and I am as mystified by the selection criteria (and the occasional hiree) as anyone. But there are open doors to employment through which many have succeeded. I'd suggest using those instead of complaining that the back door is locked.
1. Every organisation hires to initial minimum eligibility requirements..as Kubin said; QF's are well known...meet 'em and you'll get an interview.
2. Why would mainline erode the profitability of its wholly owned subsidiaries by offering auto-progression, and thereby suffer the knock-on costs of training throughout every level of the organisation?
3. The QF mainline pilots association has a sound, workable, firm-but-fair agreement with QF which, among other things, specifies reasonable conditions and compromises of assignments and choices for a career in the company. At present, and for various reasons, regional pilot groups do not come under that agreement.
4. There are many pilots in QF mainline who started in regionals/QF-link...see point 1.
I'm not trying to belittle anyone, and I am as mystified by the selection criteria (and the occasional hiree) as anyone. But there are open doors to employment through which many have succeeded. I'd suggest using those instead of complaining that the back door is locked.
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If you have a good day and jump through all the right hoops and you do it slightly better than the next guy you get the job, why do you really think you should be exempt from the process. Have heard of many guys getting into mainline from Q regionals(after going through the process). Perhap the ones wanting the right of passage do not meet the requirements(go and get them) or failed the process(try again). Just remember that there are a LOT of good pilots who have missed out
Item 2 of Jetsbest's post is the key to why QF don't want an automatic progression from it's regionals into mainline - the result would be a massive increase in the number of type endorsements that the regionals would have to provide which, given the very narrow margins that they operate on, would be unacceptable to management.
ie the reason is $$$$, and has never been about whether one group of pilots is better than another.
To those pilots who successfully make the jump to mainline - congratulations and welcome.
ie the reason is $$$$, and has never been about whether one group of pilots is better than another.
To those pilots who successfully make the jump to mainline - congratulations and welcome.
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Just a small clarification to the original post. There is not an integration process being attempted at the moment from Q-Link to mainline, that was tried years ago and failed. What is occuring is a push for re-deployment into mainline for Southern crews who no longer have a job thanks to a commercial decision made by Qantas to close down their airline. The two are seperate issues. Re-deployment in this case would not open the flood gates as it is a one-off situation. Also the $$$$'s argument fails as there would be no consequential type ratings required as the company has ceased to operate.
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The redeployment concept has to be looked at - the F/A's will be redeployed into Shorthaul, hopefully admin and ops staff will go the same way.
A few engineers who lost jobs in the Tasmanian kefuffle last year also were redeployed into Qantas.
Why not pilots whose positions are redundant?
A few engineers who lost jobs in the Tasmanian kefuffle last year also were redeployed into Qantas.
Why not pilots whose positions are redundant?
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One got all his family a job (some didn't even meet min criteria, daughter failed S/O training three times) thru the back door he also got all his mates from the Navy except for one a job thru the back door. The Qantas selection process is so badly floored it is a waste of time. Talking to Phsycologist employed at the big Q says any Physic test is only 60% accurate. This is how Qantas base their selection criteria. I rest my case.
"Great selection process human nature get my mate in thru the back this way or go the 60% accuracy way." Fantastic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry thats only two point tonight.
Last warning: you know the rules, we don't name names here.
"Great selection process human nature get my mate in thru the back this way or go the 60% accuracy way." Fantastic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry thats only two point tonight.
Last warning: you know the rules, we don't name names here.
Last edited by Woomera; 12th May 2002 at 01:38.
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Slim, I totally agree, especially as in the past there have been many occasions where pilot groups have been absorbed without all this hoop jumping.
AQ into TAA / Australian then Australian into QF, just to name 2 occasions.
65% of the AN blokes on 737 contracts for QF at the moment can't or don't meet the entry criteria.
The bean counters have absolute power here and it seems a lot of people are swallowing their b.s.
AQ into TAA / Australian then Australian into QF, just to name 2 occasions.
65% of the AN blokes on 737 contracts for QF at the moment can't or don't meet the entry criteria.
The bean counters have absolute power here and it seems a lot of people are swallowing their b.s.
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Four points,
Have to have my two cents worth here. Firstly, it is clear that you have been turned down by QF, and you are fairly bitter about it. Secondly, it really isn't very surprising...
One of those (and I quote you..) "psychic" tests involved grammar. Yours is so badly (and I quote you again..) "floored" that you probably deserved to fail. Sorry mate, but it's a tough world out there.
You meet their selection criteria, you get a job. It's their train set.
Have to have my two cents worth here. Firstly, it is clear that you have been turned down by QF, and you are fairly bitter about it. Secondly, it really isn't very surprising...
One of those (and I quote you..) "psychic" tests involved grammar. Yours is so badly (and I quote you again..) "floored" that you probably deserved to fail. Sorry mate, but it's a tough world out there.
You meet their selection criteria, you get a job. It's their train set.
What's in it for the company?
Currently they are doing their best to split flight operations into a duplex, where both longhaul and shorthaul there is the traditional Qantas operation crewed by AIPA pilots and the other crewed by effectly non union pilots. Management will play these groups off against each other for many EBA's to come.
Consider the introduction of the 737-800, an aircraft which is up to 50% bigger than the 737-300. The company used the stick that it would go to a subsiduary if conditions where not in their favour, AIPA agreed to the same pay and conditions to fly this significantly larger aircraft and even allowed the company to effectly not pay the pilots for the training.
The A330, conditions understood to be so bad and ill defined that many pilots will not bid for the type. Pay only slightly better than a 737 for Captain. Bids were to close even before conditions were known, perhaps because so few applied that the company has been forced to extend to the 20th, I wonder if they'll have the conditions available before then? General contempt may be shown to the pilot body thought - it's OK we have two of them.
Austrlian Airlines, yep, slash the conditions so only very junior 767 types will go and then get the rest of the crews off the street, I'm sure they won't be joining AIPA.
Now the chess board is set, let's see one of those pilot groups try a move, it's checkmate and AIPA is about to lose the entire game unless they can regroup these factions under the one leadership. They don't appear interested though, the game of attrition continues and management wins the game.
Perhaps when things reach the line at the 744 cockpit door?
Currently they are doing their best to split flight operations into a duplex, where both longhaul and shorthaul there is the traditional Qantas operation crewed by AIPA pilots and the other crewed by effectly non union pilots. Management will play these groups off against each other for many EBA's to come.
Consider the introduction of the 737-800, an aircraft which is up to 50% bigger than the 737-300. The company used the stick that it would go to a subsiduary if conditions where not in their favour, AIPA agreed to the same pay and conditions to fly this significantly larger aircraft and even allowed the company to effectly not pay the pilots for the training.
The A330, conditions understood to be so bad and ill defined that many pilots will not bid for the type. Pay only slightly better than a 737 for Captain. Bids were to close even before conditions were known, perhaps because so few applied that the company has been forced to extend to the 20th, I wonder if they'll have the conditions available before then? General contempt may be shown to the pilot body thought - it's OK we have two of them.
Austrlian Airlines, yep, slash the conditions so only very junior 767 types will go and then get the rest of the crews off the street, I'm sure they won't be joining AIPA.
Now the chess board is set, let's see one of those pilot groups try a move, it's checkmate and AIPA is about to lose the entire game unless they can regroup these factions under the one leadership. They don't appear interested though, the game of attrition continues and management wins the game.
Perhaps when things reach the line at the 744 cockpit door?