FAID Fatigue System
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FAID Fatigue System
Does anyone have any comments good or bad about the new CASA computer based fatigue system which is due to replace CAO 48. Have heard good and bad things about the new system.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Darwin, Mostly.
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not too bad if you think you work like a British Rail train driver.
Ever been pulled into a siding were you can rest while you are passed?
I think this one should be run by the experts in the field, a Dr Barbara something comes to mind for having done a real job on long shifts in hot climates previously. Shouldn't be too hard to find a REAL expert to kick it to death as it so richly deserves.
Ever been pulled into a siding were you can rest while you are passed?
I think this one should be run by the experts in the field, a Dr Barbara something comes to mind for having done a real job on long shifts in hot climates previously. Shouldn't be too hard to find a REAL expert to kick it to death as it so richly deserves.
Its about time this issue was aired on Pprune.
Seems there are only a couple of companies that are trialing it with the support of CASA with the intention of having it introduced industry wide.
Supposedly it will replace CAO 48 without industry / union / pilot groups consultation. The Feds have so far been very quiet on this issue. Are they even aware of it???
How many companies are in bed with CASA at the moment? The last I heard was only 4.
Does anyone have any further info?
This is one system that really needs to be knocked on the head...that is unless you are a train driver!
Seems there are only a couple of companies that are trialing it with the support of CASA with the intention of having it introduced industry wide.
Supposedly it will replace CAO 48 without industry / union / pilot groups consultation. The Feds have so far been very quiet on this issue. Are they even aware of it???
How many companies are in bed with CASA at the moment? The last I heard was only 4.
Does anyone have any further info?
This is one system that really needs to be knocked on the head...that is unless you are a train driver!
Grandpa Aerotart
We were told that it was either FMS or CAO 48 some 6 months or more ago. Our 'non standard' industry exemption was not to be renewed.
Having been told we were 'identified' as an ideal candidate for an FMS(we are international EMES) we sallied forth and produced an FMS and submitted it to CASA.
Actually I gave it to one of my Captains and he sallied forth
He reckons he's never slept better since he started studying that stuff at bed time..........perhaps it really does work!!!!!!!
Some months after we submitted it for 'approval' I recieved a letter stating that, and I quote 'Currently, it is intended that the trial will be for Australian Domestic General Aviation operators only. The FMS trial excludes transmeridional operations as there is a seperate trial underway investigating the effects of transmeridional flight' end quote.
My take on it for what it worth:
I think someone had a rush of blood to the brain after looking at the University of SA fatigue study and thought it would be great for aviation.
The study was conducted on long distance truck drivers and shift workers (like Nurses)
CASA got 'infiltrated' by some chaps, or a chap, who is/are very taken with the idea.........zealot springs to mind.
He/they have now left CASA and are out in industry doing FMSs for a living for whomever wants one.........or has been convinced they 'need' one.
CASA, now shod of their zealot, have had time to appraise the situation some more and seem to be keen to distance themselves somewhat. Good on them I say because there are issues that should('ve) be resolved before charging headlong.
We are now going to get a renewal of either our old exemption, which is still in force........and there was nothing wrong with it, or get a 'Standard Industry Exemption'........I will be talking to CASA about it as soon as there's someone in the office.
HEY GUYS I"VE BEEN PHONING ALL WEEK!!!!!!!
Why don't I like the idea?
It creates more work for some-one (guess who?) to keep track of your 'fatigue score', much like you currently keep a track of your flight and duty times.
It relies on defining 'work' and 'non work' and assigning a score to work done........over a certain score and 'they' have to find someone else to do the flight!............Yeah like that's going to happen!!!!!!!
As an example in our operation it would be theoretically possible for us to do a Kathmandu flight with one crew if that crew was 'suitably' rested before hand. That's 16 hours duty/ 11 hours flying over 4 sectors. Singapore-Dhaka-Kathmandu-Dhaka-Singapore! We currently do that flight 'heavy' i.e. 2 Captains, 1 F/O and all end up pretty bloody tired by the end.......but under the FMS system we would score well under the limit with just two pilots.
As another example we ran our busiest ever month through the FAID software using only one crew and still scored under the limit!! That was almost 100 hours of all times of the day and night international medivac the length and breadth of South East Asia!
I worry about software like that!!!!
Why doesn't it work?
Because it was invented in a university classroom!
It is just not realistic to believe that you CAN get the sort of 'rest' that the system relies on before launching you into the wild blue/black yonder.
It is usually very difficult under ANY circumstances to get meaningful rest in the daytime when your circadium rythms say WAKE UP!!! Try it with children, bills to pay and all the other detritous of life vying for your attention.......let alone being CP/Head of Dis an dat (C&T)!!
You can have all sorts of nice theory about time free from duty where you get meaningful rest and it DOES NOT WORK in real life!
There is a question mark over the FAID Software.
The reality is:
Go to work for a quick Jakarta at midnight and get home to bed at 0630........sleep fitfully for 4 hours and wake up due to traffic noise or the building that's going up across the street.......can't get to sleep that night because you had 4 hours of crap sleep this morning........finally nod off at 0230........get called out at 0630 and fly to Hanoi........get back at 1630.......fall asleep at 1830 for 1 hour before woken by your child.........can't get back to sleep until 0130.......wake up call at 0630, airborne enroute Dhaka at 0830............return at 2430......crash in bed and don't fly for the next week.......body clock permanently rooted anyway so makes little difference. Spend the next week sleeping in and the afternoon running errands/ doing CASA paperwork/ Resolving all the day to day stuff of an Int EMES Op hoping you won't get called out.....don't fall asleep much before 0100 most nights anyway....etc etc.
Then of course you have those min rest nights where the dispatcher rings to tell you to sleep in because the aircraft is running late.......at 0400.......yeah it happens!
Don't get me wrong I LOVE my job.......beats the crap out of RPT...but we need the protection afforded by our CAO 48 exemption.
Straight CAO 48 would be too restrictive for our op........an FMS would be not restrictive enough and is too theoretical for my liking.
Under the FMS system you couldn't excercise without it adding to your score..........not that I do........but you know what I mean for those of you still young enough to want to run around after balls etc
GOOD ON YOU CASA FOR TAKING A STEP BACKWARDS ON THIS ONE!!!
For those looking at them look VERY carefully and don't be rail roaded by zealots..............wish I'd listened now to my faithful FOI instead of the zealot!!!!!!!!!
Chuckles.
Barger that's the longest for a while.........if the speeling is crepe tuff
Having been told we were 'identified' as an ideal candidate for an FMS(we are international EMES) we sallied forth and produced an FMS and submitted it to CASA.
Actually I gave it to one of my Captains and he sallied forth
He reckons he's never slept better since he started studying that stuff at bed time..........perhaps it really does work!!!!!!!Some months after we submitted it for 'approval' I recieved a letter stating that, and I quote 'Currently, it is intended that the trial will be for Australian Domestic General Aviation operators only. The FMS trial excludes transmeridional operations as there is a seperate trial underway investigating the effects of transmeridional flight' end quote.
My take on it for what it worth:
I think someone had a rush of blood to the brain after looking at the University of SA fatigue study and thought it would be great for aviation.
The study was conducted on long distance truck drivers and shift workers (like Nurses)
CASA got 'infiltrated' by some chaps, or a chap, who is/are very taken with the idea.........zealot springs to mind.
He/they have now left CASA and are out in industry doing FMSs for a living for whomever wants one.........or has been convinced they 'need' one.
CASA, now shod of their zealot, have had time to appraise the situation some more and seem to be keen to distance themselves somewhat. Good on them I say because there are issues that should('ve) be resolved before charging headlong.
We are now going to get a renewal of either our old exemption, which is still in force........and there was nothing wrong with it, or get a 'Standard Industry Exemption'........I will be talking to CASA about it as soon as there's someone in the office.
HEY GUYS I"VE BEEN PHONING ALL WEEK!!!!!!!
Why don't I like the idea?
It creates more work for some-one (guess who?) to keep track of your 'fatigue score', much like you currently keep a track of your flight and duty times.
It relies on defining 'work' and 'non work' and assigning a score to work done........over a certain score and 'they' have to find someone else to do the flight!............Yeah like that's going to happen!!!!!!!
As an example in our operation it would be theoretically possible for us to do a Kathmandu flight with one crew if that crew was 'suitably' rested before hand. That's 16 hours duty/ 11 hours flying over 4 sectors. Singapore-Dhaka-Kathmandu-Dhaka-Singapore! We currently do that flight 'heavy' i.e. 2 Captains, 1 F/O and all end up pretty bloody tired by the end.......but under the FMS system we would score well under the limit with just two pilots.
As another example we ran our busiest ever month through the FAID software using only one crew and still scored under the limit!! That was almost 100 hours of all times of the day and night international medivac the length and breadth of South East Asia!
I worry about software like that!!!!
Why doesn't it work?
Because it was invented in a university classroom!
It is just not realistic to believe that you CAN get the sort of 'rest' that the system relies on before launching you into the wild blue/black yonder.
It is usually very difficult under ANY circumstances to get meaningful rest in the daytime when your circadium rythms say WAKE UP!!! Try it with children, bills to pay and all the other detritous of life vying for your attention.......let alone being CP/Head of Dis an dat (C&T)!!
You can have all sorts of nice theory about time free from duty where you get meaningful rest and it DOES NOT WORK in real life!
There is a question mark over the FAID Software.
The reality is:
Go to work for a quick Jakarta at midnight and get home to bed at 0630........sleep fitfully for 4 hours and wake up due to traffic noise or the building that's going up across the street.......can't get to sleep that night because you had 4 hours of crap sleep this morning........finally nod off at 0230........get called out at 0630 and fly to Hanoi........get back at 1630.......fall asleep at 1830 for 1 hour before woken by your child.........can't get back to sleep until 0130.......wake up call at 0630, airborne enroute Dhaka at 0830............return at 2430......crash in bed and don't fly for the next week.......body clock permanently rooted anyway so makes little difference. Spend the next week sleeping in and the afternoon running errands/ doing CASA paperwork/ Resolving all the day to day stuff of an Int EMES Op hoping you won't get called out.....don't fall asleep much before 0100 most nights anyway....etc etc.
Then of course you have those min rest nights where the dispatcher rings to tell you to sleep in because the aircraft is running late.......at 0400.......yeah it happens!
Don't get me wrong I LOVE my job.......beats the crap out of RPT...but we need the protection afforded by our CAO 48 exemption.
Straight CAO 48 would be too restrictive for our op........an FMS would be not restrictive enough and is too theoretical for my liking.
Under the FMS system you couldn't excercise without it adding to your score..........not that I do........but you know what I mean for those of you still young enough to want to run around after balls etc
GOOD ON YOU CASA FOR TAKING A STEP BACKWARDS ON THIS ONE!!!
For those looking at them look VERY carefully and don't be rail roaded by zealots..............wish I'd listened now to my faithful FOI instead of the zealot!!!!!!!!!
Chuckles.
Barger that's the longest for a while.........if the speeling is crepe tuff
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 17th Apr 2002 at 14:29.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: YSSY.
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do not believe that the Fatigue Management or (FAID) system is as bad as you guys make out... it does have it's draw backs but it also carries bonuses as with anything these days.
There are a number of companies operating under the FAID trial with CASA, however gaining operational approval to operate under the FAID system instead of CAO 48 with exemptions is proving difficult for some operators to achieve due to the well known rubbi... well, well known CASA cr@p involved with anything aviation related for GA ops.
One of the benefits for some operators such as bank runners/freight ops being that in some cases under CAO48 (With exemptions) two pilot's may have been required due F & D times, however the FAID system calculates that perhaps now only one pilot may be required...IF of course the FAID score for A pilot is less than that prescribed by CASA for the operation (I think the SCORE varies with the operation) single pilot ops may now be possible whereas previously they were not.
Obviously a "Nasty" may be that some pilots may find operators will be extending duty hours etc. to max them out to the "Peak Fatigue Score", basically sucking every revenue raising ounce of energy out an employee... hopefully, and I'm certain, this won't occur.
Of the "few" operations operating under the FAID system at the moment that I know of, they had some difficulty gaining approval to do so from CASA however are finding that it is beneficial in most cases for their operation, with pilots agreeing with this.
It's really something quite in depth and I can see, that if some serious talk is going to occur on here it will certainly take up some serious server space!!!
There are a number of companies operating under the FAID trial with CASA, however gaining operational approval to operate under the FAID system instead of CAO 48 with exemptions is proving difficult for some operators to achieve due to the well known rubbi... well, well known CASA cr@p involved with anything aviation related for GA ops.
One of the benefits for some operators such as bank runners/freight ops being that in some cases under CAO48 (With exemptions) two pilot's may have been required due F & D times, however the FAID system calculates that perhaps now only one pilot may be required...IF of course the FAID score for A pilot is less than that prescribed by CASA for the operation (I think the SCORE varies with the operation) single pilot ops may now be possible whereas previously they were not.
Obviously a "Nasty" may be that some pilots may find operators will be extending duty hours etc. to max them out to the "Peak Fatigue Score", basically sucking every revenue raising ounce of energy out an employee... hopefully, and I'm certain, this won't occur.
Of the "few" operations operating under the FAID system at the moment that I know of, they had some difficulty gaining approval to do so from CASA however are finding that it is beneficial in most cases for their operation, with pilots agreeing with this.
It's really something quite in depth and I can see, that if some serious talk is going to occur on here it will certainly take up some serious server space!!!
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FAID
You would be right on the money SeaEagle. I don't think Train Drivers cruise at a constant cabin altitude of 8000 feet. That in itself would have to bump up the odds that you are performing under the influence.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Sleep Research Centre at the Uni of SA has done some significant work on fatique with the FAID program based on their studies. There are some positives with the program if it is just going from A to B, but it does not consider the fatigue factor for associated with a precision or non-precision approach and other non standard procedures.
Neither does it consider the stresses involved in helicopter special ops such as rescues, medivacs, maritime pilot transfers, aerial ag etc. The thinking is also that the base line is set too high on the fatigue scale.
In regard to exemptions to CAO 48, many I believe will not be renewed unless they can be fully justified with objective proof. Why?? For legal reasons!!
This problem is not confined to Australia as I believe the FAA have put it in the "too hard" basket. I have heard that they are doing some work in Europe and at NASA on a FMS.
Neither does it consider the stresses involved in helicopter special ops such as rescues, medivacs, maritime pilot transfers, aerial ag etc. The thinking is also that the base line is set too high on the fatigue scale.
In regard to exemptions to CAO 48, many I believe will not be renewed unless they can be fully justified with objective proof. Why?? For legal reasons!!
This problem is not confined to Australia as I believe the FAA have put it in the "too hard" basket. I have heard that they are doing some work in Europe and at NASA on a FMS.
I have extensive experience with it at a GA charter level.
If you have any queries email me and I can fill you in on benefits and safety concerns I have with the system.
CS
If you have any queries email me and I can fill you in on benefits and safety concerns I have with the system.
CS
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: HKG
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It amazes me that they even attempt to calculate fatigue levels from duty time alone, when fatigue is really such a complex thing to qualify.
Where did these researchers become compromised?
The fatigue factors vary widely, like - noise, vibration, mental workload, physical effort, temperature, glare, air quality, enough sleep at the appropriate time, stress from home and life in general - and the list goes on.
The proposed Fatigue Management System really is an insult and dangerous.
I believe this is another case of economic rationalism gone too far. 
Where did these researchers become compromised?
The fatigue factors vary widely, like - noise, vibration, mental workload, physical effort, temperature, glare, air quality, enough sleep at the appropriate time, stress from home and life in general - and the list goes on.
The proposed Fatigue Management System really is an insult and dangerous.
I believe this is another case of economic rationalism gone too far.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Gate 69
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only people that FAID benefits are the owners and ops. If you like being on “standby” 24hrs a day (for it doesn’t incur any points), being able to work really, really long hours and then have minimal break followed by really long hours, or like the fact
that if you do say 6-7 hours duty in the middle of the day, you can work seven days per week, then FAID is great!
Oh don’t forget, that now you can fly around 1200 - 1300 hours a year (depending on day or night) and still get paid the same! Plus your days off (yeah right) are standby so you have to be available to work.
Like the others have said; there is a lot more to becoming fatigued than just time spent at work. Do you get extra points if the wx is sh!t? Or the autopilot is us? What about the time spent driving to/from work (Boss: “You only need 10 hours free and then you can go again”, Pilot: “Pity it will take 1.5 to get home because it’s peak hour”)? Don’t think so.
FAID is an employers dream and a pilots nightmare. I hate working under it.
that if you do say 6-7 hours duty in the middle of the day, you can work seven days per week, then FAID is great!
Oh don’t forget, that now you can fly around 1200 - 1300 hours a year (depending on day or night) and still get paid the same! Plus your days off (yeah right) are standby so you have to be available to work.
Like the others have said; there is a lot more to becoming fatigued than just time spent at work. Do you get extra points if the wx is sh!t? Or the autopilot is us? What about the time spent driving to/from work (Boss: “You only need 10 hours free and then you can go again”, Pilot: “Pity it will take 1.5 to get home because it’s peak hour”)? Don’t think so.
FAID is an employers dream and a pilots nightmare. I hate working under it.
