Future of Virgin Blue in Doubt??
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eile s,
fine,they are incoming generating.And yours?You should have a bit put away after all those years in the jungles of South East Asia.Or is your financial sense on par with your industrial ineptitude.
Your a shirker,not just to the generations of pilots in the wake of your industrial disaster,but also in any form of accountability.
Money a distasteful subject so lets look at other conditions in that little paragon you fly for.Probably no seniority,probably taking Captains in now ahead of the ranks,probably a bit of nepotism-would pay to be senior pilots` son,probably have to pay for your endorsement,probably pay to brown nose.
Reading between the lines of you on the offence,would probably say you applied for your job back before the date of legitimacy and all you accuse others of being is what you know you already are-s*** failure.
fine,they are incoming generating.And yours?You should have a bit put away after all those years in the jungles of South East Asia.Or is your financial sense on par with your industrial ineptitude.
Your a shirker,not just to the generations of pilots in the wake of your industrial disaster,but also in any form of accountability.
Money a distasteful subject so lets look at other conditions in that little paragon you fly for.Probably no seniority,probably taking Captains in now ahead of the ranks,probably a bit of nepotism-would pay to be senior pilots` son,probably have to pay for your endorsement,probably pay to brown nose.
Reading between the lines of you on the offence,would probably say you applied for your job back before the date of legitimacy and all you accuse others of being is what you know you already are-s*** failure.
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eisle s,
can`t we talk about the dispute?You suffered terribly and probably continue to do so.
Anyway,think you have enough problems upcoming,working for Dickies last liquid asset.
Would enjoy the antipathy to continue-contact me.
can`t we talk about the dispute?You suffered terribly and probably continue to do so.
Anyway,think you have enough problems upcoming,working for Dickies last liquid asset.
Would enjoy the antipathy to continue-contact me.
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EPIRB
Excellent idea.
bulldog69, Kaptin X and others of that ilk, why dont we just debate the issues without descending into personal vilification. I am getting a little weary of watching your baiting and generally offensive attitude and the time spent making sure whatever you start doesn't get out of hand and somebody winds up getting an eye poked out.
The thread is about peoples opinions about the future of Virgin Blue, not what you personally think of this person or that.
Excellent idea.
bulldog69, Kaptin X and others of that ilk, why dont we just debate the issues without descending into personal vilification. I am getting a little weary of watching your baiting and generally offensive attitude and the time spent making sure whatever you start doesn't get out of hand and somebody winds up getting an eye poked out.
The thread is about peoples opinions about the future of Virgin Blue, not what you personally think of this person or that.
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It is very simple really, Woomera. When presented with FACTS that they don't like and they don't have a logical argument Kap M, Tool TT, Amos et al always decsend to personal abuse. Their learning curve is perfectly flat and they still don't recognise how much their credibility suffers as a result. Unfortunately there are a few of the opposite persuasion who also use such tactics but Kap M and his ilk excel at it.
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Kaptin M - I am sorry to disappoint you but what I have done here is to merely present the facts - like them or not.
The source is impecable and has proven on numerous occassions to be both uncannily reliable and amazingly accurate.
Same goes for Whiskery.
You both have responded in the identical manner to that which the Ansett guys did some months back when it was mentioned the limited time Ansett had remaining.
I understand being an ex-AN driver Kaptin M you have an axe to grind as your history and expulsion from this Network has shown.
Fair enough - each to his own.After all this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to free speech within certain bounds.
Please do not cause this thread to degenerate into one laden with abuse etc.
I understand that being A B767 Pilot stranded in Mauritius must give you alot of free time Kap M judging by the number of your posts and history of previously spamming.
M - go outside and go for a swim/surf,get some sun or something pal - your computer screen and keyboard must be in overload!
edited to remove a name. You know the rules
[ 08 December 2001: Message edited by: Woomera ]
The source is impecable and has proven on numerous occassions to be both uncannily reliable and amazingly accurate.
Same goes for Whiskery.
You both have responded in the identical manner to that which the Ansett guys did some months back when it was mentioned the limited time Ansett had remaining.
I understand being an ex-AN driver Kaptin M you have an axe to grind as your history and expulsion from this Network has shown.
Fair enough - each to his own.After all this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to free speech within certain bounds.
Please do not cause this thread to degenerate into one laden with abuse etc.
I understand that being A B767 Pilot stranded in Mauritius must give you alot of free time Kap M judging by the number of your posts and history of previously spamming.
M - go outside and go for a swim/surf,get some sun or something pal - your computer screen and keyboard must be in overload!
edited to remove a name. You know the rules
[ 08 December 2001: Message edited by: Woomera ]
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Woomera,
You're quite right, but my post had a purpose.
It was to demonstrate that irrelevant, offensive posts that Kaptin M makes continually, attaching blame for everything to the 89 pilots' brawl, are just damned boring, and everybody is sick to death of his doing so.
How many threads would he and his mates have hijacked over the years to push a barrow in which nobody is any longer interested? The 89 pilots' dispute is history!!
I note that he decries any version of any event with which he doesn't agree. Not simple, logical, spirited discussion/argument, but irrational and irritational comment.
Once again, it was for a purpose, and that was to demonstrate that hijacking threads with irrelevant comment is found to be extremely irritating to all of us, including Woomera, it appears.
I hope I have demonstrated something worthwhile to the "89ers", and more importantly, that those at whom it is directed, take note.
[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin_X ]
[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin_X ]
You're quite right, but my post had a purpose.
It was to demonstrate that irrelevant, offensive posts that Kaptin M makes continually, attaching blame for everything to the 89 pilots' brawl, are just damned boring, and everybody is sick to death of his doing so.
How many threads would he and his mates have hijacked over the years to push a barrow in which nobody is any longer interested? The 89 pilots' dispute is history!!
I note that he decries any version of any event with which he doesn't agree. Not simple, logical, spirited discussion/argument, but irrational and irritational comment.
Once again, it was for a purpose, and that was to demonstrate that hijacking threads with irrelevant comment is found to be extremely irritating to all of us, including Woomera, it appears.
I hope I have demonstrated something worthwhile to the "89ers", and more importantly, that those at whom it is directed, take note.
[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin_X ]
[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin_X ]
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Just noticed on TV the last couple of nights a huge amount of advertising from VB.Can't seem to recall much before this.This generaly indicates there is a problem.Remember Ansett after the maintenence fiasco,there was blanket advertising after that.
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I hope that VB can survive, but it is looking increasingly less likely.
The constant talking up of prospects by Godfrey is a tip that they are in deep doggy poo. Another tip is the attempt to sell half, and talk of floating the other half.
Yet another is the advertising campaign - I'm a litle aeroplane meow/yow/wow, or whatever it is. They're doing more advertising than ever before. See a previous post.
Branson is a true enterpreneur in that he starts many businesses, but few survive. Additionally, he sells off a business that is doing well to prop up a fledgling one. In spite of his supposed wealth, he has not reached maturity as a businessman; an enterpreneur, yes, but a businessman, no. As I heard said recently, he has only one pile of money, and it gets moved to wherever it is needed to look good.
Similar is the CEO of BA, rocket Rod. I doubt that he could run a business long term, but if you want a slash and burn specialist, then he's the man. It doesn't matter that the business struggles the year after he goes - it wasn't his fault.
Once again, I hope that VB survive and prosper, because I have a good number of friends there, but I have serious doubts.
The constant talking up of prospects by Godfrey is a tip that they are in deep doggy poo. Another tip is the attempt to sell half, and talk of floating the other half.
Yet another is the advertising campaign - I'm a litle aeroplane meow/yow/wow, or whatever it is. They're doing more advertising than ever before. See a previous post.
Branson is a true enterpreneur in that he starts many businesses, but few survive. Additionally, he sells off a business that is doing well to prop up a fledgling one. In spite of his supposed wealth, he has not reached maturity as a businessman; an enterpreneur, yes, but a businessman, no. As I heard said recently, he has only one pile of money, and it gets moved to wherever it is needed to look good.
Similar is the CEO of BA, rocket Rod. I doubt that he could run a business long term, but if you want a slash and burn specialist, then he's the man. It doesn't matter that the business struggles the year after he goes - it wasn't his fault.
Once again, I hope that VB survive and prosper, because I have a good number of friends there, but I have serious doubts.
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Cmon guys, a bit naieve to say that because of TV commercials they're making one last ditch effort before going south. Coconut I wouldnt call there ads blanket advertising. They had planned to use the television medium all along as do every other large company trying to sell their product. So the man on the Qantas ad diving into the pool, is that Qantas' final attempt at staying afloat? I dont think so. Lets just call it what it is, advertising. 
[ 05 December 2001: Message edited by: eisle s ]
[ 05 December 2001: Message edited by: eisle s ]
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The whispers I hear is DJ is on the edge and in the next 6-9 months it will fall over. DJ will fight hard but the pockets will not be deep enough. While the 'New Ansett' is still going nobody will inject capital into DJ.
The 'New Ansett' is just that - a new company. Very little debt, Star Alliance on carriage, terminals, experienced motivated staff, two prominent Australian businessmen as owners, $400 M starting operating capital and great support from Airbus.
I look forward to a good fight - This is going to be fun!
Time will tell all.
The 'New Ansett' is just that - a new company. Very little debt, Star Alliance on carriage, terminals, experienced motivated staff, two prominent Australian businessmen as owners, $400 M starting operating capital and great support from Airbus.
I look forward to a good fight - This is going to be fun!
Time will tell all.
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Dambuster - as with yourself, I only call it as I see it. Your friend that predicted the demise of Ansett only got the timing right within 5 days. Nobody was surprised that it eventually happened, as Ansett had been in financial trouble for some time.
DJ are recruiting and advertising at length at present, no indication here that they are experiencing financial problems. The only problem they have at the moment is getting staff and new aeroplanes.
DJ have the runs on the board and are in business. Any rumours to the effect of RB being a bad businessman,not having deep enough pockets to stay in business,DJ on the edge... etc,. etc,. is the little green monster working overtime or just plain mischevious banter.
The Fox/Lew bid for Ansett,IMHO,seemed centred around taxpayer's money and government underwriting of the new airline. This is not going to happen - they were told this before the election. I just don't see the bid as serious anymore. The baring of one's arse in public may be good for the morale of the "rah,rah" lads but could you ever imagine Sir Reginald Ansett doing that.
This is what will keep DJ prospering - the lack of competition. If Ansett can get up, it will be good for the travelling public and good news for some of the staff. It will keep Qantas honest as well with two airlines to compete with. It doesn't mean that Virgin will go out of business - they came into the industry with plenty of competition and are doing it very well with their product.
Good luck to both players.
[ 05 December 2001: Message edited by: Whiskery ]
DJ are recruiting and advertising at length at present, no indication here that they are experiencing financial problems. The only problem they have at the moment is getting staff and new aeroplanes.
DJ have the runs on the board and are in business. Any rumours to the effect of RB being a bad businessman,not having deep enough pockets to stay in business,DJ on the edge... etc,. etc,. is the little green monster working overtime or just plain mischevious banter.
The Fox/Lew bid for Ansett,IMHO,seemed centred around taxpayer's money and government underwriting of the new airline. This is not going to happen - they were told this before the election. I just don't see the bid as serious anymore. The baring of one's arse in public may be good for the morale of the "rah,rah" lads but could you ever imagine Sir Reginald Ansett doing that.
This is what will keep DJ prospering - the lack of competition. If Ansett can get up, it will be good for the travelling public and good news for some of the staff. It will keep Qantas honest as well with two airlines to compete with. It doesn't mean that Virgin will go out of business - they came into the industry with plenty of competition and are doing it very well with their product.
Good luck to both players.
[ 05 December 2001: Message edited by: Whiskery ]
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Why the Fox-Lew game plan is a winner
By ROBERT GOTTLIEBSEN
05dec01
LINDSAY Fox and Solomon Lew are going ahead with their bid for Ansett and in two weeks will begin training Ansett pilots for new Airbus aircraft.
They've decided to ignore the government backflips because they believe their formula will work. It's one many others will need to consider in this environment.
The bid is subject to creditor and court approval. Before we look at why the new Ansett will be so different from the old - and how it plans to take on Qantas - it's important to understand why its government relations became such a mess.
The government stance is that it shouldn't give Fox and Lew special help because this would have to be extended to everyone else. I don't challenge the principle, but it was a rocky road getting there.
With an election looming, transport minister John Anderson wanted a solution to the Ansett crisis. The only one on offer was the Fox-Lew bid. Just what Anderson indicated the Government would deliver will be debated for a long time, but the principle Cabinet eventually adopted wasn't at the top of the agenda.
Publicly, Anderson spoke of a Qantas market share of about 65 per cent and there were hints of lots of government business. Fox and Lew believed he'd deliver -- and that they were entitled to help.
The weekend before the poll, Anderson indicated the Prime Minister would be involved in a relaunch announcement. Suddenly, this was withdrawn. The Ansett deal was announced a few days later -- without the Government. But Simon Crean was there, which didn't go down well.
Anderson likes to please. But he can't always deliver. He might have been able to if Fox and Lew were the only bidders and liquidation the only option. Once Corrigan entered the race, the game changed.
Qantas and Virgin have warned Lew and Fox to expect aggressive pricing when they relaunch Ansett next month.
Just as the old Ansett and Qantas made life miserable for Compass, so Fox and Lew can expect to be tested.
Why would two wealthy men decide to take on Qantas? Why go against a government that, at best, has misled and, at worst, prefers a rival bidder?
As Fox and Lew have gone deeper into the business, they have become even more enthusiastic about Ansett's prospects. They believe their business model is better than anyone has used in Australian aviation and that their rivals will eventually get sick of giving away airline seats at fire-sale prices.
The first part is to secure new aircraft on terms no one else can better -- way below Qantas's. And they'll offer passengers internet, TV and phone access.
Second, they've secured world-class work practices. The unions agreed because staff will get 5 per cent of the operation.
Third, they have a great brand on which to superimpose a new operation.
Fourth, the new Ansett will operate only on main routes. The combination of these factors means it will be able to break even with 20 per cent market share and make money at 25 per cent. The old Ansett probably needed 50 per cent to break even.
The big cost is taking over the old Ansett terminal contracts. The terminals were designed for a bigger airline. Fox and Lew will have to pay for space they won't need.
Just what profits Ansett delivers will depend on how they use the excess.
Neither man wants to actually run the new airline. They've set up the model and invited other international airlines to run it.
The plan includes a minority equity for the manager. So the new Ansett would have four shareholders -- Fox and Lew with up to 40 per cent each, the manager with 15-20 per cent, and 5 per cent for staff.
Singapore is the favoured manager but it will want to ensure creditors back the proposal. Staff dominate the secured creditors and shouldn't be a problem. Among the estimates of what unsecured creditors will get, 15c in the dollar seems a likely outcome. Many unsecured creditors, including holders of frequent-flyer points, would benefit from Ansett resuming operations.
Qantas has had to provide 90 per cent of air traffic since Ansett collapsed and has locked in corporate customers. It will continue to make good profits from its domestic operation but will need to lower its cost structure to meet the competition.
If Qantas decides Fox and Lew are a long-term threat, it may go for the throat.
By ROBERT GOTTLIEBSEN
05dec01
LINDSAY Fox and Solomon Lew are going ahead with their bid for Ansett and in two weeks will begin training Ansett pilots for new Airbus aircraft.
They've decided to ignore the government backflips because they believe their formula will work. It's one many others will need to consider in this environment.
The bid is subject to creditor and court approval. Before we look at why the new Ansett will be so different from the old - and how it plans to take on Qantas - it's important to understand why its government relations became such a mess.
The government stance is that it shouldn't give Fox and Lew special help because this would have to be extended to everyone else. I don't challenge the principle, but it was a rocky road getting there.
With an election looming, transport minister John Anderson wanted a solution to the Ansett crisis. The only one on offer was the Fox-Lew bid. Just what Anderson indicated the Government would deliver will be debated for a long time, but the principle Cabinet eventually adopted wasn't at the top of the agenda.
Publicly, Anderson spoke of a Qantas market share of about 65 per cent and there were hints of lots of government business. Fox and Lew believed he'd deliver -- and that they were entitled to help.
The weekend before the poll, Anderson indicated the Prime Minister would be involved in a relaunch announcement. Suddenly, this was withdrawn. The Ansett deal was announced a few days later -- without the Government. But Simon Crean was there, which didn't go down well.
Anderson likes to please. But he can't always deliver. He might have been able to if Fox and Lew were the only bidders and liquidation the only option. Once Corrigan entered the race, the game changed.
Qantas and Virgin have warned Lew and Fox to expect aggressive pricing when they relaunch Ansett next month.
Just as the old Ansett and Qantas made life miserable for Compass, so Fox and Lew can expect to be tested.
Why would two wealthy men decide to take on Qantas? Why go against a government that, at best, has misled and, at worst, prefers a rival bidder?
As Fox and Lew have gone deeper into the business, they have become even more enthusiastic about Ansett's prospects. They believe their business model is better than anyone has used in Australian aviation and that their rivals will eventually get sick of giving away airline seats at fire-sale prices.
The first part is to secure new aircraft on terms no one else can better -- way below Qantas's. And they'll offer passengers internet, TV and phone access.
Second, they've secured world-class work practices. The unions agreed because staff will get 5 per cent of the operation.
Third, they have a great brand on which to superimpose a new operation.
Fourth, the new Ansett will operate only on main routes. The combination of these factors means it will be able to break even with 20 per cent market share and make money at 25 per cent. The old Ansett probably needed 50 per cent to break even.
The big cost is taking over the old Ansett terminal contracts. The terminals were designed for a bigger airline. Fox and Lew will have to pay for space they won't need.
Just what profits Ansett delivers will depend on how they use the excess.
Neither man wants to actually run the new airline. They've set up the model and invited other international airlines to run it.
The plan includes a minority equity for the manager. So the new Ansett would have four shareholders -- Fox and Lew with up to 40 per cent each, the manager with 15-20 per cent, and 5 per cent for staff.
Singapore is the favoured manager but it will want to ensure creditors back the proposal. Staff dominate the secured creditors and shouldn't be a problem. Among the estimates of what unsecured creditors will get, 15c in the dollar seems a likely outcome. Many unsecured creditors, including holders of frequent-flyer points, would benefit from Ansett resuming operations.
Qantas has had to provide 90 per cent of air traffic since Ansett collapsed and has locked in corporate customers. It will continue to make good profits from its domestic operation but will need to lower its cost structure to meet the competition.
If Qantas decides Fox and Lew are a long-term threat, it may go for the throat.
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Whiskery, like you I don't see the Ansett bid by Fox/Lew going ahead. $400 mil to invest in a fairly large startup will not go very far, and $200 mil play money after that would potentially not last very long at all.
It will be very interesting to see where Australian Aviation is 2 years from now. The Technological Revolution that we are going through right now is a bit like the industrial revolution - alot of turmoil and change, many people losing their jobs and being re-employed in other industries. The difference is the Tech Rev is happening alot faster. And the similarity being that what comes out the other side will be better than what existed before.
It will be very interesting to see where Australian Aviation is 2 years from now. The Technological Revolution that we are going through right now is a bit like the industrial revolution - alot of turmoil and change, many people losing their jobs and being re-employed in other industries. The difference is the Tech Rev is happening alot faster. And the similarity being that what comes out the other side will be better than what existed before.
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From Syd Airport message board:
4 new Virgin due
From tomorrow 4 new aircraft in next 15 days
VH-VOF 737-8Q8 DUE BNE 5 DEC
VH-VOE 737-8Q8 DUE BNE 10DEC
VH-VOG 737-8Q8 DUE BNE 15DEC
VH-VBE 737-700 DUE BNE 20DEC
4 new Virgin due
From tomorrow 4 new aircraft in next 15 days
VH-VOF 737-8Q8 DUE BNE 5 DEC
VH-VOE 737-8Q8 DUE BNE 10DEC
VH-VOG 737-8Q8 DUE BNE 15DEC
VH-VBE 737-700 DUE BNE 20DEC
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Now that is exciting news, not because I am a Virgin fan but because it is the fruit of competition.
With Qantas new stuff everybody in Oz benefits.
There is nothing like the smell of a new aircraft or new anything really.
With Qantas new stuff everybody in Oz benefits.
There is nothing like the smell of a new aircraft or new anything really.
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Gaunty,
Have a look at the thread "Qantas new livery concept" to see what the White Rat has up its sleeve for competition against Virgin. Well maybe not up its sleeve
Don't think you would like the smell of this aircraft even if it is new
Have a look at the thread "Qantas new livery concept" to see what the White Rat has up its sleeve for competition against Virgin. Well maybe not up its sleeve
Don't think you would like the smell of this aircraft even if it is new
