Ansett FO's will never be Captains.
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Ansett FO's will never be Captains.
I would never suggest that currently unemployed ANSETT pilots should not be helped. .back into a job with Tesna just as soon as it can be done. That is fundamental, they. .should be assisted as much as possible and if we can give association funds to them to. .help with that or securing other jobs then we should, down to the last cent.
But the issue of FO’s losing the opportunity to gain a command is entirely different.. .Giving FO’s a career path does not deprive others of a job, it simply helps FO’s reach an. .employable level. You see the fact is that in most parts of the world if you are not a. .Captain then you are nothing. This is why so many airlines won’t even consider hiring. .our FO’s even though they are highly experienced. In fact in some areas to still be an FO. .with 5 or 10 thousand hours indicates that there is something wrong with you!
So while Ansett’s future and that of any non-Qantas Australian based airline is less than. .guaranteed our FO’s are vulnerable. They/we need to reach the level of experienced. .Captain in order to protect our income and ultimately our families.
To say to us that we should have no hope of command while ex-Captains are unemployed. .is to say that the ego’s of the ex-Captains are more important than our families security. I. .don’t believe that many Captain’s would see it that way. I hope that there will be a. .ground swell of support for the FO’s in this regard.
I hope that I will not see Captain’s talking down to FO’s and using language that is. .patronising and combative. In particular I hope that those in positions of power won’t say. .things like; ‘ “It was made crystal clear to them..” (that we don’t want them to progress at. .our buddies expense).’
This is a time for unity and for fundamentals. The fundamentals are having a job, getting. .a job and being qualified to get a job if need be! Maintaining your Captain’s rank should. .be secondary.
But the issue of FO’s losing the opportunity to gain a command is entirely different.. .Giving FO’s a career path does not deprive others of a job, it simply helps FO’s reach an. .employable level. You see the fact is that in most parts of the world if you are not a. .Captain then you are nothing. This is why so many airlines won’t even consider hiring. .our FO’s even though they are highly experienced. In fact in some areas to still be an FO. .with 5 or 10 thousand hours indicates that there is something wrong with you!
So while Ansett’s future and that of any non-Qantas Australian based airline is less than. .guaranteed our FO’s are vulnerable. They/we need to reach the level of experienced. .Captain in order to protect our income and ultimately our families.
To say to us that we should have no hope of command while ex-Captains are unemployed. .is to say that the ego’s of the ex-Captains are more important than our families security. I. .don’t believe that many Captain’s would see it that way. I hope that there will be a. .ground swell of support for the FO’s in this regard.
I hope that I will not see Captain’s talking down to FO’s and using language that is. .patronising and combative. In particular I hope that those in positions of power won’t say. .things like; ‘ “It was made crystal clear to them..” (that we don’t want them to progress at. .our buddies expense).’
This is a time for unity and for fundamentals. The fundamentals are having a job, getting. .a job and being qualified to get a job if need be! Maintaining your Captain’s rank should. .be secondary.
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Not everyone lives a decade ago TTT. Some captains in ansett are not your so called hero's in fact you probably wouldn't know most of them anyway TTT!. .Grow up and get a life mate! Forget about 89!!!!
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Could not have agreed more until I became a Captain.
Agreed F/O's had to be well & truly looked after in '89 but then some of my `compratriots' did not and ended up screwing all particularly the F/O's.
These are now the Captains who have been feeding you the `true' story of '89 and you wish their support in your time of need?
Integrity & nobility are fine words - will we see deeds fitting the word?
Agreed F/O's had to be well & truly looked after in '89 but then some of my `compratriots' did not and ended up screwing all particularly the F/O's.
These are now the Captains who have been feeding you the `true' story of '89 and you wish their support in your time of need?
Integrity & nobility are fine words - will we see deeds fitting the word?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Your post is correct, Jamie320200, when you indicate that it is not easy for F/O`s to obtain a command, once they leave the nest of an airline with some sort of career structure which allows F/O`s to progress through to command. It is EXTREMELY difficult - but not altogether impossible - in the contract world, to find a company willing to train and upgrade an F/O. In 99.9% of the contract work you are employed, paid, and remain in the position for which you applied.. .On the other hand, captains are able to be employed in either seat (whereas F/O`s are restricted SOLELY to the rhs).
Perhaps, for those F/O`s who are WILLING to leave Australia (and it WILL be for a loooong time!), NOW is the time to start looking towards airlines that offer career paths, eg. Emirates. Many `89`ers (including some Captains went to Cathay, however they are in dispute at this time and have a "recruitment ban" in place).
As you alluded, Jamie320200, F/O time is not really worth a pinch of doggy doo until AFTER you achieve a command, when `Total Time` then becomes relevant.. .Likewise just "having a command" is of no real value in itself - employers/contractors also look at (command) time on type, as well as total command time. Your P1U/S is recognised to some degree, in some countries.
Take it from me, an "experienced" F/O in 1989, it`s a hard slog! But there are `89`ers out there who do empathise with you, and who will no doubt help, rather than hinder, you.
Certainly the Ansett captains who have taken F/O`s slots would have found it FAR easier to pick up work, than those F/O`s whose slots they`ve stolen, and have once again shown complete disregard for their co-workers and their younger dependent families.. .Old habits die hard, don`t they, toecutter!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Perhaps, for those F/O`s who are WILLING to leave Australia (and it WILL be for a loooong time!), NOW is the time to start looking towards airlines that offer career paths, eg. Emirates. Many `89`ers (including some Captains went to Cathay, however they are in dispute at this time and have a "recruitment ban" in place).
As you alluded, Jamie320200, F/O time is not really worth a pinch of doggy doo until AFTER you achieve a command, when `Total Time` then becomes relevant.. .Likewise just "having a command" is of no real value in itself - employers/contractors also look at (command) time on type, as well as total command time. Your P1U/S is recognised to some degree, in some countries.
Take it from me, an "experienced" F/O in 1989, it`s a hard slog! But there are `89`ers out there who do empathise with you, and who will no doubt help, rather than hinder, you.
Certainly the Ansett captains who have taken F/O`s slots would have found it FAR easier to pick up work, than those F/O`s whose slots they`ve stolen, and have once again shown complete disregard for their co-workers and their younger dependent families.. .Old habits die hard, don`t they, toecutter!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
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Kaptin M, to quote your post
"Perhaps, for those F/O`s who are WILLING to leave Australia (and it WILL be for a loooong time!), NOW is the time to start looking towards airlines that offer career paths, eg. Emirates. Many `89`ers (including some Captains went to Cathay, however they are in dispute at this time and have a "recruitment ban" in place)."
I have heard that Emirates have been knocking back a lot of highly qualified Ansett applicants (including many non-scabs) and have now increased their max age to 49 and reduced the required qualifications, perhaps they have become a little over zealous. (I still think Emirates would be a great choice for anyone willing to go O/S)
Of course other airlines come to mind, e.g. Dragon Air
"Perhaps, for those F/O`s who are WILLING to leave Australia (and it WILL be for a loooong time!), NOW is the time to start looking towards airlines that offer career paths, eg. Emirates. Many `89`ers (including some Captains went to Cathay, however they are in dispute at this time and have a "recruitment ban" in place)."
I have heard that Emirates have been knocking back a lot of highly qualified Ansett applicants (including many non-scabs) and have now increased their max age to 49 and reduced the required qualifications, perhaps they have become a little over zealous. (I still think Emirates would be a great choice for anyone willing to go O/S)
Of course other airlines come to mind, e.g. Dragon Air
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How too attract an idiot!. .1. say ansett. .2. they all think scab. .3. TTT and Kaptain M (moron)reply!
You 2 idoits need a life
Hire sex and get it out of your system!!!
Not everyone in Ansett is a Scab and anyway we have better jobs than you and fly 10 times more professionally because we have no hang up's like you clowns
If was you are still bitter, like you two, I rekon I would have ended it all age's ago!!!!!!!!!!! I'll lend you my 308 if you need it, even give you dick's free round's!!!!. .Hang loose, relax and enjoy the flying!!!!
That's what it's all about!
You 2 idoits need a life
Hire sex and get it out of your system!!!
Not everyone in Ansett is a Scab and anyway we have better jobs than you and fly 10 times more professionally because we have no hang up's like you clowns
If was you are still bitter, like you two, I rekon I would have ended it all age's ago!!!!!!!!!!! I'll lend you my 308 if you need it, even give you dick's free round's!!!!. .Hang loose, relax and enjoy the flying!!!!
That's what it's all about!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Following Sept. 11 there is an "over-abundance" of highly experienced pilots, Capt_Zoolander - not just Aussies, but Septics, Poms (with more to come per favor Rod eddington <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> ), Canadians, and various other Europeans.. .At the present time, employers are being deluged with applicants and as many are keen to avoid too many of one nationality, they are, for the time being, able to recruit intakes comprising a mix of pilots from various countries.
Some pilots (eg. ANFO) will decide to leave aviation, resulting in a natural "cull", some will score employment with career airlines, whilst others will find contract work to tide them, and their families, over.
Certainly the aviation industry has once again troughed, but there will be the inevitable peak again (the rise has now been forecast to commence THIS year, rather than next) when there will be SHORTAGE of (heavy jet-experienced) pilots and rapid promotion for those holding that experience.. .The idea is to try to stay current, so that YOU are positioned to catch that peak when it sweeps through.. .There will be, for many of you, a lot of knockbacks, but you`ve all experienced those before throughout your aviation career. This might turn out to be "3 steps back" before you can take one forward, however if you`re DETERMINED that aviation is to remain your chosen profession you`ll have to tread the hard road and hang in there for a "while", eat a little humble pie (as the "new boy") when you find your new job, and try to keep looking ahead without forgetting the lessons of the recent past.
Best of luck guys! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Some pilots (eg. ANFO) will decide to leave aviation, resulting in a natural "cull", some will score employment with career airlines, whilst others will find contract work to tide them, and their families, over.
Certainly the aviation industry has once again troughed, but there will be the inevitable peak again (the rise has now been forecast to commence THIS year, rather than next) when there will be SHORTAGE of (heavy jet-experienced) pilots and rapid promotion for those holding that experience.. .The idea is to try to stay current, so that YOU are positioned to catch that peak when it sweeps through.. .There will be, for many of you, a lot of knockbacks, but you`ve all experienced those before throughout your aviation career. This might turn out to be "3 steps back" before you can take one forward, however if you`re DETERMINED that aviation is to remain your chosen profession you`ll have to tread the hard road and hang in there for a "while", eat a little humble pie (as the "new boy") when you find your new job, and try to keep looking ahead without forgetting the lessons of the recent past.
Best of luck guys! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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Quieten down Toecutter
Toecutter,
First, let’s dispose of any doubts about the hypothesis I have had for a long time that people choose a PPrune pseudonym that matches a dominant trait in their personality. Mine is “Viastra” a pleasant old machine (though modern in its day) steeped in aviation history. Get into the books someday Toecutter (yes indeedy…we can learn from history!) and you’ll find out about it. So I plead guilty to having chosen a name that brings those traits to mind.
Now…”Toecutter”. Need I say more about YOUR name? Although your command of and use of the Queen’s English alone should have told one and all that appropriate medication is indeed a vital part of modern life without you resorting (typical) to overkill by choosing a name redolent with viciousness, intolerance and ignorant venom.
Here’s the plot. After 1989, and this has nothing to do with “How” and “Why” that debacle happened. Due to a post-dispute BLACKLIST (sounds nasty doesn’t it?) many, many fine pilots had no choice but to leave town. Then, as now, there was no chance of that fine egalitarian concept “An orderly return to work, however long it takes”. Could, as now, have easily been, but it wasn’t to be.
Today’s BLACKLIST was put together in a different way, possibly by some of the same people, for some similar and some dissimilar reasons but the end result is the same. No foreseeable opportunities in OZ. Some brave souls hung around to try to get jobs with new starts (remember Transcontinental, AAA, Southern Cross, Capital, Spirit, Compass, Seaboard etc etc…”the money’s going to be in at the end of next week!”) and some left straight away. Some experienced Captains ended up taking truly horrible jobs in the sand or the jungle as F/Os and some F/Os endured heaven knows what trials as they patiently waited for THE chance to swap seats. I fly with a number of these brave and patient souls now and while none of them are glad they had those trials…they’re bloody glad to be flying in the left hand seats of jets that aren’t even on the register in OZ, to places they’d never have gone to pre-89, with salaries, commuting and privileges to match.
Yes, it’s a hard slog. Try flying uncountable 1 hour sectors in horrible weather and terrain with brand new F/Os as you earn your way onto a 777. Try flying a clapped out 737 in and around Asian jungles with captains appointed because their brother-in-law is a local General. But the bottom line is this. It’s worth it. If you have the diligence, enthusiasm, patience and skills to handle it. It isn’t for everyone and it’s no sin to accept that it’s not for you.
And Toecutter (please change that name…I’m sure it’s not good for you)…here’s the real message.
The only organization in Australia that has ever tried to guarantee pilots an orderly career path with decent career benefits (be they GA, regional, commuter, airline, CASA, executive or whoever) is the AFAP, bless it’s heart. The world we find ourselves in today is the direct and total result of the efforts to destroy pilot careers that began in 1989. If ex-AN F/Os feel a little lonely now it’s because of things that others did in 1989.
That’s why we need to learn from history. Because without a little history in our blood we (or our children) will have to do it all again.
A little less venom and some more thinking might make your posts a great asset to PPruners everywhere. I commend these thoughts to you Toecutter….it truly is time for you to seek something other than knee-jerk responses to complex issues.
Best wishes to all job hunters. One day soon there’ll be a decent thread on Pprune to help you as you make your way in the post Ansett world.
Viastra. . <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Toecutter,
First, let’s dispose of any doubts about the hypothesis I have had for a long time that people choose a PPrune pseudonym that matches a dominant trait in their personality. Mine is “Viastra” a pleasant old machine (though modern in its day) steeped in aviation history. Get into the books someday Toecutter (yes indeedy…we can learn from history!) and you’ll find out about it. So I plead guilty to having chosen a name that brings those traits to mind.
Now…”Toecutter”. Need I say more about YOUR name? Although your command of and use of the Queen’s English alone should have told one and all that appropriate medication is indeed a vital part of modern life without you resorting (typical) to overkill by choosing a name redolent with viciousness, intolerance and ignorant venom.
Here’s the plot. After 1989, and this has nothing to do with “How” and “Why” that debacle happened. Due to a post-dispute BLACKLIST (sounds nasty doesn’t it?) many, many fine pilots had no choice but to leave town. Then, as now, there was no chance of that fine egalitarian concept “An orderly return to work, however long it takes”. Could, as now, have easily been, but it wasn’t to be.
Today’s BLACKLIST was put together in a different way, possibly by some of the same people, for some similar and some dissimilar reasons but the end result is the same. No foreseeable opportunities in OZ. Some brave souls hung around to try to get jobs with new starts (remember Transcontinental, AAA, Southern Cross, Capital, Spirit, Compass, Seaboard etc etc…”the money’s going to be in at the end of next week!”) and some left straight away. Some experienced Captains ended up taking truly horrible jobs in the sand or the jungle as F/Os and some F/Os endured heaven knows what trials as they patiently waited for THE chance to swap seats. I fly with a number of these brave and patient souls now and while none of them are glad they had those trials…they’re bloody glad to be flying in the left hand seats of jets that aren’t even on the register in OZ, to places they’d never have gone to pre-89, with salaries, commuting and privileges to match.
Yes, it’s a hard slog. Try flying uncountable 1 hour sectors in horrible weather and terrain with brand new F/Os as you earn your way onto a 777. Try flying a clapped out 737 in and around Asian jungles with captains appointed because their brother-in-law is a local General. But the bottom line is this. It’s worth it. If you have the diligence, enthusiasm, patience and skills to handle it. It isn’t for everyone and it’s no sin to accept that it’s not for you.
And Toecutter (please change that name…I’m sure it’s not good for you)…here’s the real message.
The only organization in Australia that has ever tried to guarantee pilots an orderly career path with decent career benefits (be they GA, regional, commuter, airline, CASA, executive or whoever) is the AFAP, bless it’s heart. The world we find ourselves in today is the direct and total result of the efforts to destroy pilot careers that began in 1989. If ex-AN F/Os feel a little lonely now it’s because of things that others did in 1989.
That’s why we need to learn from history. Because without a little history in our blood we (or our children) will have to do it all again.
A little less venom and some more thinking might make your posts a great asset to PPruners everywhere. I commend these thoughts to you Toecutter….it truly is time for you to seek something other than knee-jerk responses to complex issues.
Best wishes to all job hunters. One day soon there’ll be a decent thread on Pprune to help you as you make your way in the post Ansett world.
Viastra. . <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
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Kap M,. .Your Words! Can you spot some inconsistency here and there?. .__________________________________________________. .Certainly the Ansett captains who have taken F/O`s slots would have found it FAR easier to pick up work, than those F/O`s whose slots they`ve stolen, and have once again shown complete disregard for their co-workers and their younger dependent families
And:. .The stance of the AFAP and ALL the pilots who constituted it was - from the beginning thru' to the end - "an orderly return to work". Throughout the 1989 dispute ALL unanimously agreed that the existing Seniority system was to remain intact - to stop scabs such as Thumbs up from queue-jumping, as he DID at the first opportunity, and continued to espouse following his return.
Had the dispute been handled as was the norm, with a NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT, I guess the Federation would have put some time cap on the length of service permitted o/s, and still returning with one's original seniority number and position. .__________________________________________________
Now you are saying it would have been OK in 1989 if there were not enough positions left for senior pilots to displace the junior FOs in accordance with AFAP policy. And now you talk of stolen FO slots.
There was never any chance of negotiating or applying the seniority list after the resignations no matter how much you wish to fantasise about it. Also note that you thought it was OK to depart the scene to leave the rest to fight the unwinnable fight but if they did it was OK to return some years later under some undefined AFAP "cap.". .More fantasy!
Let's look at the "new AN"...if it gets up.
Previous AN had 16 A320s and at an estimate of approx 5.5 crews per aircraft that gives a strength of 176 pilots. Capts 88, Fos 88.
"New AN" alleged to have 30 A320's eventually so that would require 330 pilots. Capts 165 FOs 165
New AN strength is said to be 353 pilots so that should soak up the mahogany brigade and some incidentals.
So ignoring the "cull," which I have been told included Captains, at a line pilot level we need another 77 Capts and 77 FOs. So there will be a need for a significant training pipeline. Quite a few of the Captains would have flown the A320 either RHS or LHS previously and possibly some FOs also. Seems reasonable to include these on strength. That still leaves a "discretionary" number still to be allocated. This seems to be the area where there is some disquiet.
This leaves a lot of excellent pilots both Capts and FOs out in the cold out of a strength of in excess of 600 pilots.
Yes, in '89 there were a few who "seized the day" to leap to the fore as well as the management pilots who chose to stay on. On the other hand many, having seen pilots depart and waiting for the AFAP to come to their senses, realised how stupid they had been to resign but nevertheless hung on even when the AFAP lied about the ever burgeoning flood of contract pilots. Confronting reality they then took the best contract offered at the time as many others who opted overseas did. Most regained a position at a lesser level than before. The AFAP policy applied to the letter would have resulted in no positions being filled by Australian pilots. By the time the AFAP said it was OK to join up there were no jobs left.
[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>
And:. .The stance of the AFAP and ALL the pilots who constituted it was - from the beginning thru' to the end - "an orderly return to work". Throughout the 1989 dispute ALL unanimously agreed that the existing Seniority system was to remain intact - to stop scabs such as Thumbs up from queue-jumping, as he DID at the first opportunity, and continued to espouse following his return.
Had the dispute been handled as was the norm, with a NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT, I guess the Federation would have put some time cap on the length of service permitted o/s, and still returning with one's original seniority number and position. .__________________________________________________
Now you are saying it would have been OK in 1989 if there were not enough positions left for senior pilots to displace the junior FOs in accordance with AFAP policy. And now you talk of stolen FO slots.
There was never any chance of negotiating or applying the seniority list after the resignations no matter how much you wish to fantasise about it. Also note that you thought it was OK to depart the scene to leave the rest to fight the unwinnable fight but if they did it was OK to return some years later under some undefined AFAP "cap.". .More fantasy!
Let's look at the "new AN"...if it gets up.
Previous AN had 16 A320s and at an estimate of approx 5.5 crews per aircraft that gives a strength of 176 pilots. Capts 88, Fos 88.
"New AN" alleged to have 30 A320's eventually so that would require 330 pilots. Capts 165 FOs 165
New AN strength is said to be 353 pilots so that should soak up the mahogany brigade and some incidentals.
So ignoring the "cull," which I have been told included Captains, at a line pilot level we need another 77 Capts and 77 FOs. So there will be a need for a significant training pipeline. Quite a few of the Captains would have flown the A320 either RHS or LHS previously and possibly some FOs also. Seems reasonable to include these on strength. That still leaves a "discretionary" number still to be allocated. This seems to be the area where there is some disquiet.
This leaves a lot of excellent pilots both Capts and FOs out in the cold out of a strength of in excess of 600 pilots.
Yes, in '89 there were a few who "seized the day" to leap to the fore as well as the management pilots who chose to stay on. On the other hand many, having seen pilots depart and waiting for the AFAP to come to their senses, realised how stupid they had been to resign but nevertheless hung on even when the AFAP lied about the ever burgeoning flood of contract pilots. Confronting reality they then took the best contract offered at the time as many others who opted overseas did. Most regained a position at a lesser level than before. The AFAP policy applied to the letter would have resulted in no positions being filled by Australian pilots. By the time the AFAP said it was OK to join up there were no jobs left.
[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>
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FSU,
[quote]in '89 there were a few who "seized the day" to leap to the fore <hr></blockquote>
That's a truly heroic interpretation of a truly heroic deed.
[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: Wiley ]</p>
[quote]in '89 there were a few who "seized the day" to leap to the fore <hr></blockquote>
That's a truly heroic interpretation of a truly heroic deed.
[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: Wiley ]</p>
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Highroad. "Job search allowance." Good one mate, I'll remember that.
To all. It is not so much the establishment period that concerns me but the rumour is that the ex-Captains will take all the command positions for the next 5 years or longer. Thats a long time for FO's close to 40 to see no progression especially for those close to the bottom of the pile.
Wish me luck with my applications.
And to you 89's: To the sane ones, thanks. To those still in need of professional help, please do yourselves a favour and get some. There is no shame in admitting that your not perfect.
To all. It is not so much the establishment period that concerns me but the rumour is that the ex-Captains will take all the command positions for the next 5 years or longer. Thats a long time for FO's close to 40 to see no progression especially for those close to the bottom of the pile.
Wish me luck with my applications.
And to you 89's: To the sane ones, thanks. To those still in need of professional help, please do yourselves a favour and get some. There is no shame in admitting that your not perfect.
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My Dear FSU,. .You still wish to propound your untruthful versions of the AFAP and its role in '89.. .The thread herein was not so hijacked until you started once again, to round on the '89er's and the AFAP.. .On another thread, some time ago, I mentioned, when I had only two T's, in debate with you, that for you and others who hold similar views, that if the management of the AFAP was such an anathema to you then, why did you not do the appropriate thing and become a part of the leadership?. .No - it is much easier to be critical of those who gave their own time to be of service to their colleagues, and who endeavoured to enhance the profession.. .So the bottom line is, that for yourself and your fellow scabs, you must forever remain in the cesspit of untruths, which you have dug for yourselves.. .As to this current thread, the initiator might be well advised to focus his/her attention on the future, and he/she will also not forget the heroes who wait in the wings for their instant A320 commands, and who will not give a fig for the fact that anyone such as Jamie320200 must seek employment on distant shores, and have the rest of their lives so disrupted.. .Join the club. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
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TTT,. .Whether it be to choose to be an AFAP rep or part of management one always has to look at the quality of whom you may have to associate with. Not really impressed with either option especially not to associate with an AFAP person grovelling around on the floor trying to look up the skirts of ladies at a social function. Nor am I impressed with a leader who ends up on a drink driving charge when maximum concentration was required in his role. Worst of all were the lies denying that contract pilots were flooding into the country and that all jobs would be regained. That was untrue the moment the resignations were lodged and accepted.
Kap M raised the argument about senior pilots displacing junior pilots. Not only did AFAP pilots push aside GA pilots and in some cases intimidate junior pilots but "reserved" their "rightful place" as well. Are you trying to distract attention from the inconsistencies of some of Kap M's views which was the point of my last post.
Would have thought by now that you had learned that personal abuse does not work. Pay attention to the facts.
Kap M raised the argument about senior pilots displacing junior pilots. Not only did AFAP pilots push aside GA pilots and in some cases intimidate junior pilots but "reserved" their "rightful place" as well. Are you trying to distract attention from the inconsistencies of some of Kap M's views which was the point of my last post.
Would have thought by now that you had learned that personal abuse does not work. Pay attention to the facts.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Well, well - so now we have good ol` FSU justifying the CURRENT actions of the scabs at Ansett! Is it any surprise though?. .If you AN F/O`s listen to FSU`s hissings long enough he`ll no doubt end up telling you that this is the BEST thing for everybody, and that (of course) they had no choice but to shaft you!
The FACTS are FSU YOU were one of the scabs of 1989 who stole another`s job - but of course we`re going to hear the all too familiar howl of "I only took my own job back" <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> as you again dive for cover to shield your delicate feelings, lest they be hurt when the truth is printed.. .How long DID you have to command pre-Dispute, and how long did it take you after [quote]"siezing the day"??<hr></blockquote>. .But I don`t expect a truthful reply from you, because that would not allow you to justify your actions in your own eyes!
The difference between "then" and now, is that each and everyone of us who didn`t scab (by signing the individual contracts that removed our right of representation by the AFAP) was only prepared to go back as a group. . .Yes, it MAY have been possible that not everyone would have got his/her job back straightaway, but had the Federation been permitted to represent us there would have been something negotiated for those who weren`t able to be offered full-time work.
In the SAME WAY that the Ansett Pilots` Association has negotiated - NOT!
The failure of 78% of previous Australian domestic airline pilots to regain employment is due DIRECTLY because of the likes of you, FSU.
And the ability of those scabs to AGAIN screw another generation of pilots, by stealing THEIR jobs, is ALSO thanks to YOU, FSU.
All this garbage you dredge up of someone on a dance floor, and the DUI story are nothing but an attempted diversion to try to deflect the spotlight from your own inexcusable actions. . .Just as inexcusable as those committed on the present group of Ansett pilots.
And this gem coming from FSU;. . [quote]Also note that you thought it was OK to depart the scene to leave the rest to fight the unwinnable fight...<hr></blockquote>. .I left Australia late in 1990 to take up my first job since Ansett.
However, YOU mad the "greedy grab" shortly after the resignations were submitted - some 12 months before me!
How`s it going toecutter? Blown another blood vessel yet?
The FACTS are FSU YOU were one of the scabs of 1989 who stole another`s job - but of course we`re going to hear the all too familiar howl of "I only took my own job back" <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> as you again dive for cover to shield your delicate feelings, lest they be hurt when the truth is printed.. .How long DID you have to command pre-Dispute, and how long did it take you after [quote]"siezing the day"??<hr></blockquote>. .But I don`t expect a truthful reply from you, because that would not allow you to justify your actions in your own eyes!
The difference between "then" and now, is that each and everyone of us who didn`t scab (by signing the individual contracts that removed our right of representation by the AFAP) was only prepared to go back as a group. . .Yes, it MAY have been possible that not everyone would have got his/her job back straightaway, but had the Federation been permitted to represent us there would have been something negotiated for those who weren`t able to be offered full-time work.
In the SAME WAY that the Ansett Pilots` Association has negotiated - NOT!
The failure of 78% of previous Australian domestic airline pilots to regain employment is due DIRECTLY because of the likes of you, FSU.
And the ability of those scabs to AGAIN screw another generation of pilots, by stealing THEIR jobs, is ALSO thanks to YOU, FSU.
All this garbage you dredge up of someone on a dance floor, and the DUI story are nothing but an attempted diversion to try to deflect the spotlight from your own inexcusable actions. . .Just as inexcusable as those committed on the present group of Ansett pilots.
And this gem coming from FSU;. . [quote]Also note that you thought it was OK to depart the scene to leave the rest to fight the unwinnable fight...<hr></blockquote>. .I left Australia late in 1990 to take up my first job since Ansett.
However, YOU mad the "greedy grab" shortly after the resignations were submitted - some 12 months before me!
How`s it going toecutter? Blown another blood vessel yet?
Join Date: Mar 1999
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Kap M, I see you will continue to deny reality despite being given the facts. You can twist anyway you want. Nowhere did I seek to justify the current happenings at AN; just came up with a few hypothetical numbers.. . For example when I gave you the correct pay rates you said that was wrong because it did not suit your purpose.
When I said AN operated without reserves your response was in the negative despite it being demonstrably true.
So ......keep the fantasy alive. . .When you are no longer an employee you have no right to negotiate and that is the position the AFAP placed you in with the resignation strategy. You may like to pretend otherwise but that is the unfortunate sad reality of the debacle.
. .And as you point out. .__________________________________________________
Yes, it MAY have been possible that not everyone would have got his/her job back straightaway, but had the Federation been permitted to represent us there would have been something negotiated for those who weren`t able to be offered full-time work. ._________________________________________________
May have been possible?. .More likely probably not. As it was, by the time the AFAP came to it's senses, there were very few jobs left. And make no mistake every one could have been filled by "imports"
Bed for me...early start tomorrow.
[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>
When I said AN operated without reserves your response was in the negative despite it being demonstrably true.
So ......keep the fantasy alive. . .When you are no longer an employee you have no right to negotiate and that is the position the AFAP placed you in with the resignation strategy. You may like to pretend otherwise but that is the unfortunate sad reality of the debacle.
. .And as you point out. .__________________________________________________
Yes, it MAY have been possible that not everyone would have got his/her job back straightaway, but had the Federation been permitted to represent us there would have been something negotiated for those who weren`t able to be offered full-time work. ._________________________________________________
May have been possible?. .More likely probably not. As it was, by the time the AFAP came to it's senses, there were very few jobs left. And make no mistake every one could have been filled by "imports"
Bed for me...early start tomorrow.
[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>