That elusive first job
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That elusive first job
I'm just fresh from finishing my CPL and am on the verge of splurging another $8,000 for an Instructor's Rating. However, it has been suggested to me, as it seems it has been to everyone else, that I should head up north and join the merry-go-round trying to get into charter work. Often I read in this forum that it isn't just your flying hours that attract potential employers, but other attributes that you can bring to the company; with that in mind what hope would a low-hours pilot who speaks fluent French, and a high level of Japanese and German have in getting work in the tourist charter industry ANYWHERE in Australia? Tasmania would suit me just fine too, though I don't have my ME/CIR just yet. In fact, the CFI is keen for me to do that first before I do the Instructor Rating. Dilemma, dilemma!
Care to elaborate Eyes Wide Open?
Have done a little research and last I had heard was the company doing them (Alice Springs Air Charter?) had their AOC withdrawn sometime last year. Can't find any clues as to whether or not someone else has taken up the scenics. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough?
Drop me an email if possible at [email protected]
Cheers,
TL
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Transition Layer ]
Edited for dodgy email address...
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Transition Layer ]</p>
Have done a little research and last I had heard was the company doing them (Alice Springs Air Charter?) had their AOC withdrawn sometime last year. Can't find any clues as to whether or not someone else has taken up the scenics. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough?
Drop me an email if possible at [email protected]
Cheers,
TL
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Transition Layer ]
Edited for dodgy email address...
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Transition Layer ]</p>
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alice springs air charter (and their subsidiary, rock ayer) stopped flying in june 2001 due to lack of aoc. at the time, there were 2 207's and a 206 operating out of the rock.
a new company has moved in (can't remember the name) and i believe they are operating a 172, 2 partenavia's and a caravan out of the rock.
scenic hours are a good place to start but i don't think you want too many of them.
a new company has moved in (can't remember the name) and i believe they are operating a 172, 2 partenavia's and a caravan out of the rock.
scenic hours are a good place to start but i don't think you want too many of them.
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Finnair - For your benefit if you wish to persue this idea I would ring directory assistance and ask for the number of "Sails in the desert" Yulara , get onto the tour desk and ask who the scenic flight operators are. Get the numbers from the desk and give them a call. Best of luck!
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Finnair, I don't know where or who your training with, but the company that has taken over the Rockayer is a spin-off of General Flying Services from Moorabbin. Now I'm not saying that recruitment is bias to those who spend enough money there, but... well you know how it goes.
Recruitment is via the CFI at MB, nothing to do with "Sails". If you want to contact the resort tho' I think they're actually listed under Ayers Rock Resort.
Competition at AS is now tight for low hours pilots as it's true that ASAC went down. Wright's Air has moved up from South Aust though, but there appears limit places comming up and I know of experienced pilots locally that were recently layed off that you'd be competing with. Chartair require 700hrs and IFR.
Maybe with fresh commercial, further north would be a better go, more operators and opportunities. Can anyone Darwin way comment?
Good luck with it all.
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: jon.pierre ]</p>
Recruitment is via the CFI at MB, nothing to do with "Sails". If you want to contact the resort tho' I think they're actually listed under Ayers Rock Resort.
Competition at AS is now tight for low hours pilots as it's true that ASAC went down. Wright's Air has moved up from South Aust though, but there appears limit places comming up and I know of experienced pilots locally that were recently layed off that you'd be competing with. Chartair require 700hrs and IFR.
Maybe with fresh commercial, further north would be a better go, more operators and opportunities. Can anyone Darwin way comment?
Good luck with it all.
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: jon.pierre ]</p>
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Finnair,
Before you go spending any more cash give the operators in Kununurra a call (Slingair/Alligator are both on the web if you search for them) and have a chat to the CP if you can, and then fax them your CV. They are usually quite approachable and would give you an idea of what to expect if you head that far north. They get quite a few German tourists thru there and language skills have been considered an asset in the past.
The Japanese would be more helpful in FNQ and there are a number of operators you could speak to over there, start going through the yellow pages and get calling. The language skills would probably get you a decent job on the east coast, in tourist locations, whilst you are waiting for a flying job to hopefully come up. Some of the skydiving operators in FNQ (Cairns) spend most of their time throwing petrified Japanese girls out of their aircraft, likewise the reef operators with float planes and the Japanese tourists. So your Japanese would be an advantage, but enough to get a fresh CPL a job, only they can tell you.
Most of these places don't (or didn't anyway) require new guys to have MECIR, you can do that after a year or so, and your cash might be better spent getting to where the few jobs are. If you can leave some cash to cover these things in a fixed term deposit for 6 months to a year you can always come back and do them later if things don't work out.
Anyway, good luck, and I hope this gives you some ideas. Things may have changed since I did this but it pretty much worked for me, but be patient as it can take a loooong time!!
Before you go spending any more cash give the operators in Kununurra a call (Slingair/Alligator are both on the web if you search for them) and have a chat to the CP if you can, and then fax them your CV. They are usually quite approachable and would give you an idea of what to expect if you head that far north. They get quite a few German tourists thru there and language skills have been considered an asset in the past.
The Japanese would be more helpful in FNQ and there are a number of operators you could speak to over there, start going through the yellow pages and get calling. The language skills would probably get you a decent job on the east coast, in tourist locations, whilst you are waiting for a flying job to hopefully come up. Some of the skydiving operators in FNQ (Cairns) spend most of their time throwing petrified Japanese girls out of their aircraft, likewise the reef operators with float planes and the Japanese tourists. So your Japanese would be an advantage, but enough to get a fresh CPL a job, only they can tell you.
Most of these places don't (or didn't anyway) require new guys to have MECIR, you can do that after a year or so, and your cash might be better spent getting to where the few jobs are. If you can leave some cash to cover these things in a fixed term deposit for 6 months to a year you can always come back and do them later if things don't work out.
Anyway, good luck, and I hope this gives you some ideas. Things may have changed since I did this but it pretty much worked for me, but be patient as it can take a loooong time!!
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Finnair,
1) Don't listen to a word blackflaps is saying, cos it seems he's rooted too many of his namesake.
2) If you were to get to Kununurra, you will be one of up to 70 guys all trying to get a start.
3) There can be up to 20 positions going on the airport and that's not bad odds considering other places you can go.
4) They are mainly single hours, but who just out of commercial training starts on a multi.
5) As Alistair said, it can take a long time, but give it a nudge, you never know, both Alligator and Slingair don't just do scenics, but a hell of a lot of charter as well.
6) You'll meet some good mates and if you get a start, well you've done the right thing. Lot's of hours really quick, the time to get there is now, if you're one of the first on, 500+ in the season and by Christmas will have more than enough to break the Darwin scene.
All the best and happy hunting! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
1) Don't listen to a word blackflaps is saying, cos it seems he's rooted too many of his namesake.
2) If you were to get to Kununurra, you will be one of up to 70 guys all trying to get a start.
3) There can be up to 20 positions going on the airport and that's not bad odds considering other places you can go.
4) They are mainly single hours, but who just out of commercial training starts on a multi.
5) As Alistair said, it can take a long time, but give it a nudge, you never know, both Alligator and Slingair don't just do scenics, but a hell of a lot of charter as well.
6) You'll meet some good mates and if you get a start, well you've done the right thing. Lot's of hours really quick, the time to get there is now, if you're one of the first on, 500+ in the season and by Christmas will have more than enough to break the Darwin scene.
All the best and happy hunting! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
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Blackappendages, i'll bite, what is your problem!
I know it takes a long time to get off the singles in KNX, and 2000 hrs single is not unheard of, 1000 slug (C207) nestles in quite a few peoples logbooks from up there (yes mine included). The progression onto the twins takes time, not because you don't have the ability to fly them but because you have to wait your turn like everyone else until one of the guys who has been there for a while, gets his 500 twin and leaves for a more likely twin job, usually on the east coast, as that was the min. twin required to get a job over there. It depends if you start at the front of a bunch of new guys or the tail end. If at the front you could be out of there in 2 & 1/2 years with what you need, if at the back it could be 3 years before you see the PN68 which ain't a big reward but thats the way you should have figured it out before you started. You can always leave if it looks like your staring down the barrel and quite a few guys do, its called having a plan! Ever heard of the term TROPPO!
Finnair, if you are still bothering to read this, don't be put off by some of the stuff above, you get all types from twitter and bisted because the world hasn't given me what I deserved (as Clint Eastwood said, "who said anything about deserve") thru to guys who will hang in there no matter how tough it gets, and most of the time it works out as a bit of hardship usually breeds character. As an example, a mate had 2 go's at the KNX nut, fresh CPL, 1 year looking around oz with no luck, 2 year break from aviation to pay off what he owed, back to the north, 4 months in the KNX hotel & country club and station work (fencing mostly), 3 years flying for most of the companies in KNX with approx 2000 hrs single, which included floats (he loved the Beaver, thanks Craig!), and a total of 50 hrs multi in the PN68. Some life long friends, a wife and some amazing flying up north in places that most people pay to see. Also the skills that kept him alive for almost 2 years in PNG followed by a stint on RPT trislanders in the northern hemisphere, (you should see a tri catch ice over the English Channel in winter) and finally a command on a 30+ seat turbo prop and the story is still continuing. So it can be done, unfortunately there is only room for so many people and its the ones who can maintain an open mind and focus on their ultimate goal that succeed. A parent in an airline, or with unlimited dosh is always going to help, but that is your luck and everyone who has half a brain would make the most of that advantage, but you do not need to have these things to succeed.
Enough, good luck with whatever you decide, success in aviation isn't a requirement for a rich and full life, but for some people it sure bloody helps
[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Alistair ]
[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Alistair ]</p>
I know it takes a long time to get off the singles in KNX, and 2000 hrs single is not unheard of, 1000 slug (C207) nestles in quite a few peoples logbooks from up there (yes mine included). The progression onto the twins takes time, not because you don't have the ability to fly them but because you have to wait your turn like everyone else until one of the guys who has been there for a while, gets his 500 twin and leaves for a more likely twin job, usually on the east coast, as that was the min. twin required to get a job over there. It depends if you start at the front of a bunch of new guys or the tail end. If at the front you could be out of there in 2 & 1/2 years with what you need, if at the back it could be 3 years before you see the PN68 which ain't a big reward but thats the way you should have figured it out before you started. You can always leave if it looks like your staring down the barrel and quite a few guys do, its called having a plan! Ever heard of the term TROPPO!
Finnair, if you are still bothering to read this, don't be put off by some of the stuff above, you get all types from twitter and bisted because the world hasn't given me what I deserved (as Clint Eastwood said, "who said anything about deserve") thru to guys who will hang in there no matter how tough it gets, and most of the time it works out as a bit of hardship usually breeds character. As an example, a mate had 2 go's at the KNX nut, fresh CPL, 1 year looking around oz with no luck, 2 year break from aviation to pay off what he owed, back to the north, 4 months in the KNX hotel & country club and station work (fencing mostly), 3 years flying for most of the companies in KNX with approx 2000 hrs single, which included floats (he loved the Beaver, thanks Craig!), and a total of 50 hrs multi in the PN68. Some life long friends, a wife and some amazing flying up north in places that most people pay to see. Also the skills that kept him alive for almost 2 years in PNG followed by a stint on RPT trislanders in the northern hemisphere, (you should see a tri catch ice over the English Channel in winter) and finally a command on a 30+ seat turbo prop and the story is still continuing. So it can be done, unfortunately there is only room for so many people and its the ones who can maintain an open mind and focus on their ultimate goal that succeed. A parent in an airline, or with unlimited dosh is always going to help, but that is your luck and everyone who has half a brain would make the most of that advantage, but you do not need to have these things to succeed.
Enough, good luck with whatever you decide, success in aviation isn't a requirement for a rich and full life, but for some people it sure bloody helps
[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Alistair ]
[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Alistair ]</p>
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70 city people or otherwise. Still makes for a hell of a good drink. Network, network, network. Mate, your reservations are the same ones that many of us have had in the past. Keep your nose clean, don't p1ss anyone off and, above all, have a good time. You are about to have the best time of your life. Savour every moment. It doesn't get much better than what you are about to learn/experience.
onya <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
onya <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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Blackflaps, you are missing the point
[quote] ...and "old mate" still didn't meet the requirements for just about any twin job in the country. <hr></blockquote>
he didn't have the hours for ANY twinjob in Aus, but he took the experience he had to a place that he did have the hours to fly twins. Did you only read the bit that agreed with your perception? You have to make the most of what you have or be miserable and give up, is your beer half empty or half full type of stuff.
Finnair was asking for some advice about his next step, his language skills would give him an advantage in these places, but enough to get him a job I don't know. People have given him some information which hopefully will be of use, even some of what you have said will be usefull as an example of how tough it can get waiting in a place where you can't seem to get a break, but it can be done. Another guy I knew (yeah, yeah) got told he didn't stand a chance in KNX so he lived in Wyndham for nearly 2 years before he got a start with Ord Air Charter, last I heard he was flying B1900's.
Finnair, sorry about the digression, hope there is something usefull in all this for you.
[quote] ...and "old mate" still didn't meet the requirements for just about any twin job in the country. <hr></blockquote>
he didn't have the hours for ANY twinjob in Aus, but he took the experience he had to a place that he did have the hours to fly twins. Did you only read the bit that agreed with your perception? You have to make the most of what you have or be miserable and give up, is your beer half empty or half full type of stuff.
Finnair was asking for some advice about his next step, his language skills would give him an advantage in these places, but enough to get him a job I don't know. People have given him some information which hopefully will be of use, even some of what you have said will be usefull as an example of how tough it can get waiting in a place where you can't seem to get a break, but it can be done. Another guy I knew (yeah, yeah) got told he didn't stand a chance in KNX so he lived in Wyndham for nearly 2 years before he got a start with Ord Air Charter, last I heard he was flying B1900's.
Finnair, sorry about the digression, hope there is something usefull in all this for you.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Another guy I bumped into at last years BALPA conference got his start at a Wyndham based company a few years ago. Now he's a captain on 737's in the UK. He's happy.
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Redsnail, may I ask what it has cost you in AUS$ to obtain your JAA licence? Just interested to see how much of a financial hike it would be. And how does the IFR training/testing compare to Oz with regards to difficulty and expense.
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Finnair,
Mate, if you've got nothing else better to do, check out jex's website, you'll find links to it all over this forum. He tells of his journey to KNX, working for slingair and oh year his journey into QF after working at slingair for only 1 year.
Blackflaps, sounds like you've been indulging in a little self fellatio, so when did you have those bottom 2 ribs removed??
Mate, if you've got nothing else better to do, check out jex's website, you'll find links to it all over this forum. He tells of his journey to KNX, working for slingair and oh year his journey into QF after working at slingair for only 1 year.
Blackflaps, sounds like you've been indulging in a little self fellatio, so when did you have those bottom 2 ribs removed??
PPRuNe Handmaiden
At the moment I haven't completed it. I still have the flying to do. I don't have to do the instrument rating because I have over 500 hours multi crew + an ICAO (Aus) ATPL.
The rough budget so far (including the Shorts type rating) is about $40,000. Now, not, this doesn't include sanity money or living expenses after I passed the exams. I honestly wouldn't attempt it with less than $50,000. (resits, text books etc)
That doesn't include a car or transport costs. (esp the airfare)
If I had to do the Instrument rating, add another $10,000 to $20,000 on that. + MCC add another $10,000....
The rough budget so far (including the Shorts type rating) is about $40,000. Now, not, this doesn't include sanity money or living expenses after I passed the exams. I honestly wouldn't attempt it with less than $50,000. (resits, text books etc)
That doesn't include a car or transport costs. (esp the airfare)
If I had to do the Instrument rating, add another $10,000 to $20,000 on that. + MCC add another $10,000....
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I've let this thread run in spite of the deep literary skills and rational analysis shown by the eponymous (you should look it up) Blackflaps as the opportunity for an answer to the question had not been fulfilled until recently.
Member #48124, your member name is offensive and there is a fine line between so called robust Aussie directness and offensive behaviour. One of the previous on its own maybe, two NUP, you're out. You may return on the condition that you modify your user name and posting behaviour.
It will now be apparent to the thread intitator that there are all, but mostly beaut, types up there, where to start, and the fun that can be had, but that he should beware that crocodiles and brown snakes are not the only danger. He should be even more careful of some of his self proclaimed professional peers.
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: Woomera ]</p>
Member #48124, your member name is offensive and there is a fine line between so called robust Aussie directness and offensive behaviour. One of the previous on its own maybe, two NUP, you're out. You may return on the condition that you modify your user name and posting behaviour.
It will now be apparent to the thread intitator that there are all, but mostly beaut, types up there, where to start, and the fun that can be had, but that he should beware that crocodiles and brown snakes are not the only danger. He should be even more careful of some of his self proclaimed professional peers.
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: Woomera ]</p>
