Ansett workers warned on jobs
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Alpha41, No one is twisting their arms to sign up, If they are dumb enough to sign up for peanuts that's their bad luck. Do what I am doing, sit on the beach and collect the Dole for the next 12 Months, then pick a job anywhere in the World for big bucks. If you are ex-Ansett take the money to ease the trauma, you owe it to yourselves, you have paid too much to the ATO and probably invested in mushroom farms, get some of your money back. Enjoy!
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KNACKERED! I dont know what you've been smoking but taking what I posted and putting your enterpretation on it is a stretch even for a lightweight like you. VB management pilots (startup) came back to Australia after living OS and making their nice little bundles. By agreeing to a salary equivelent to that of a flight attendant they have played into the hands of other airline management who are now using this to screw pilot wages back 30 years. As usual it is those few self serving individuals who have screwed aviation in this country again! If you join VB as an FO (non 737 rated) you are required to shell out $25 grand to pay for your own 737 rating!! This has never been the case in Airlines in this country and is a disgrace. It has nothing to do with what I payed or didn't to get a comercial licence etc. I feel sorry for all the non rated guys who get in and have for fork out $25 grand and then work for less than half what they're worth. All thanks to those ex 89 idiots who let it happen in the first place and an idiot pom who must be laughing at us all.
Capt Zoolander: Thanks for your advice. Not a bad idea. See you on the beach.
Capt Zoolander: Thanks for your advice. Not a bad idea. See you on the beach.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
A41 it would appear obvious that it's YOUR thought processes that have suffered if you are STILL unable to come to terms with the FACT that the salaries being paid to the Ansett pilots "All thanks to those ex 89 idiots who let it happen in the first place" AGREED) were simply unsustainable. Shall I say it again, the salaries being paid to the Ansett pilots (because of the 1989 dispute) were UNSUSTAINABLE.
[quote]VB management pilots (startup) came back to Australia after living OS and making their nice little bundles.<hr></blockquote>
WRONG. If my memory serves me correctly, only ONE management pilot left an overseas position (Chief Pilot of Ezy Jet) to get Virgin Blue operational.
[quote]..to screw pilot wages back 30 years<hr></blockquote>
30 YEARS??? Somewhat more than a little lose with the truth with that one! Agreed, they are on the low side.
However this fight started 12 years ago, and you have only one group to thank for having the splintered, dis-jointed pilot group you see in Oz today - most of them are back with the new Ansett Mk3, and the remainder are flying domestically (mainly on the 737's I understand). Those who took personal, short term gain at the expense of long term loss for ALL then present and future (read NOW) pilots!
They were the (your quote) "few self serving individuals who have screwed aviation in this country"
Australian aviation IS NOW forever changed, and it is interesting to draw a comparison between Australia and the Philippines (where I had the opportunity to work some years back). In the 1970's Philippine Airlines - that country's major international and domestic air carrier - had an industrial confrontation with their pilots (as happened in Australia) which resulted in MANY pilots not being re-employed (as happened in Australia), and hence large numbers entered G.A. in the Phils.
In 1996, a new domestic B737 operator - by the name of Air Philippines - commenced operations, initially with only a very small number of Philippine pilots, and utilising wet-leased charter aircraft
to bolster their operations until Air Phil could train the local pilots.
And guess WHO these local pilots were? Yes, in the main they were the (then) ex-strike Philippine Airline F/O's from 20 years ago, who had been flying in G.A.
In a further twist of similar fates, Philippine Airlines had another altercation with their pilots about 2 years ago, grounding the airline for a couple of months as one or two scabs trickled back. During this time, Air Philippines grew rapidly to become the major domestic operator there now, and Philippine Airlines is a mere shadow of its former self as it continues (again similarly to AN) with mainly Airbus aircraft.
Times have changed in Australia - get used to it, or move on to elsewhere!
[quote]VB management pilots (startup) came back to Australia after living OS and making their nice little bundles.<hr></blockquote>
WRONG. If my memory serves me correctly, only ONE management pilot left an overseas position (Chief Pilot of Ezy Jet) to get Virgin Blue operational.
[quote]..to screw pilot wages back 30 years<hr></blockquote>
30 YEARS??? Somewhat more than a little lose with the truth with that one! Agreed, they are on the low side.
However this fight started 12 years ago, and you have only one group to thank for having the splintered, dis-jointed pilot group you see in Oz today - most of them are back with the new Ansett Mk3, and the remainder are flying domestically (mainly on the 737's I understand). Those who took personal, short term gain at the expense of long term loss for ALL then present and future (read NOW) pilots!
They were the (your quote) "few self serving individuals who have screwed aviation in this country"
Australian aviation IS NOW forever changed, and it is interesting to draw a comparison between Australia and the Philippines (where I had the opportunity to work some years back). In the 1970's Philippine Airlines - that country's major international and domestic air carrier - had an industrial confrontation with their pilots (as happened in Australia) which resulted in MANY pilots not being re-employed (as happened in Australia), and hence large numbers entered G.A. in the Phils.
In 1996, a new domestic B737 operator - by the name of Air Philippines - commenced operations, initially with only a very small number of Philippine pilots, and utilising wet-leased charter aircraft
to bolster their operations until Air Phil could train the local pilots.And guess WHO these local pilots were? Yes, in the main they were the (then) ex-strike Philippine Airline F/O's from 20 years ago, who had been flying in G.A.
In a further twist of similar fates, Philippine Airlines had another altercation with their pilots about 2 years ago, grounding the airline for a couple of months as one or two scabs trickled back. During this time, Air Philippines grew rapidly to become the major domestic operator there now, and Philippine Airlines is a mere shadow of its former self as it continues (again similarly to AN) with mainly Airbus aircraft.
Times have changed in Australia - get used to it, or move on to elsewhere!
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Well Kap M there you go again claiming that the AN salaries were unsustainable.
What you consider to be unsustainable salaries are pretty well what the AFAP wanted with it's 30% increase. And that would have been unsustainable at the AFAP sanctioned lack of productivity. AN pilot productivity was at least double what it was before.
And, let's not forget your bragging about your alleged high salary which, of course, is sustainable even if, as you say, it is several multiples of the AN salaries.
Hard to correlate your conflicting statements.
What you consider to be unsustainable salaries are pretty well what the AFAP wanted with it's 30% increase. And that would have been unsustainable at the AFAP sanctioned lack of productivity. AN pilot productivity was at least double what it was before.
And, let's not forget your bragging about your alleged high salary which, of course, is sustainable even if, as you say, it is several multiples of the AN salaries.
Hard to correlate your conflicting statements.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Let's not get onto the same roundabout again, FSU. HISTORY - the collapse of Ansett, and the subsequent LOWER salaries being offered under TESNA - has proven my assertion correct.
Furthermore comparing salaries for the same job but different countries is futile, or would you argue that ALL pilots should be on the same salary as, say Air India pilots, or American Airlines pilots?
Quite obviously a British pilot would find it near impossible to survive on an Air New Zealand pilot's salary, conversely an Aussie pilot on an AA pilot's wage would have excess to spare, and a Japanese pilot on a Malaysian's salary would starve.
Furthermore comparing salaries for the same job but different countries is futile, or would you argue that ALL pilots should be on the same salary as, say Air India pilots, or American Airlines pilots?
Quite obviously a British pilot would find it near impossible to survive on an Air New Zealand pilot's salary, conversely an Aussie pilot on an AA pilot's wage would have excess to spare, and a Japanese pilot on a Malaysian's salary would starve.
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As a junior pilot in AN,I will honestly say the events of 89 haunted us throughout my career.Sparing the details at this stage.
Did many pilots who never resigned in 89 get their jobs back?Someone mentioned old scores being settled,this ably demonstrating the deep diviseness of the senior pilot group.
Don`t think we were overpaid Kapt M,unsustainable with APA and the divisions yes,definately!Toomey was going to slash our wages with an integration with AirNZ pilots,because he could(this an admission in a recent interview).
ANSETT VIRGIN BLUE merger,God help us,playing one against the other,the bitter antipathy etc.
Those ex89ers with an axe to grind,understandably in some cases,against pilots of AN,re do your figures because about 60% of the new AN pilots had nothing to do with the dispute but continue to pay the price.
Did many pilots who never resigned in 89 get their jobs back?Someone mentioned old scores being settled,this ably demonstrating the deep diviseness of the senior pilot group.
Don`t think we were overpaid Kapt M,unsustainable with APA and the divisions yes,definately!Toomey was going to slash our wages with an integration with AirNZ pilots,because he could(this an admission in a recent interview).
ANSETT VIRGIN BLUE merger,God help us,playing one against the other,the bitter antipathy etc.
Those ex89ers with an axe to grind,understandably in some cases,against pilots of AN,re do your figures because about 60% of the new AN pilots had nothing to do with the dispute but continue to pay the price.
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Well, the QF pilots had better watch out because on a productivity basis they were close to AN if not a little better when you take stick hours performed and remove the credit hours factor from QF.
Duck Muck,
Are you asking if the pilots who never resigned in '89 got their jobs back in AN3/Tesna? An interesting question and worthy of an answer! Anyone know?
Kap M,
There were more than one pilot who returned from OS to fly for VB. Some may have made a "pile" but many did not or they spent it. Unfortunately, no matter where they come from, pilots are bad money managers.
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>
Duck Muck,
Are you asking if the pilots who never resigned in '89 got their jobs back in AN3/Tesna? An interesting question and worthy of an answer! Anyone know?
Kap M,
There were more than one pilot who returned from OS to fly for VB. Some may have made a "pile" but many did not or they spent it. Unfortunately, no matter where they come from, pilots are bad money managers.
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>
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Just got an email which says that there were 23 pilots in AN and subsidiaries who never resigned. Of those 9 had left/ retired before the bust.
Of the remainder about 6 have opted out as far as is known, maybe more.
Of the remainder about 6 have opted out as far as is known, maybe more.
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Alpha41, let me just state the facts of it, being the the lightweight that I am (your words). Most of the pilots I know flying for VB are not sitting on any piles of cash. They simply had had enough of working overseas and wanted to work back in OZ. Being blacklisted long ago by the domestics and too old for QF, taking the job with VB for the money on offer was the only choice. 'Hold out for more' you say. If you ever leave the sheltered workshop you call home and venture out into the big wide world as these guys had done then.......ah what's the point? You'll never get it.
I ask what you paid for training because in some parts of the world, especially Asia, there are FOs paying back huge sums of money for their training. I personally know a number of people who have bought endorsements and moved on to bigger and better things, but, hey!, you hang in there and stick up for your rights.
Your bleating is a relic of the old union days in OZ where the workers tell all and sundry where and when they will work and for how much, and this Ansett debacle is just an example of the old giving way to the new.
I ask what you paid for training because in some parts of the world, especially Asia, there are FOs paying back huge sums of money for their training. I personally know a number of people who have bought endorsements and moved on to bigger and better things, but, hey!, you hang in there and stick up for your rights.
Your bleating is a relic of the old union days in OZ where the workers tell all and sundry where and when they will work and for how much, and this Ansett debacle is just an example of the old giving way to the new.
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Alpha41:- I noted your comment about VB entrants having to pay for their own endorsement prior to employment, which is quite correct although I would query the figure. However, didn't you miss out the "bonus" payable at the end of two years' service, which is supposed to compensate for the initial outlay, or was this just a crew-room rumour I heard?
Duck Muck:- I have no idea what policy will prevail re personal sim time under the new management, but there won't be too much spare time available in the foreseeable future, we'll be running the A320 falt out for some time with endorsements and continuation training.
Kind regards to all,
TheNightOwl.
Duck Muck:- I have no idea what policy will prevail re personal sim time under the new management, but there won't be too much spare time available in the foreseeable future, we'll be running the A320 falt out for some time with endorsements and continuation training.
Kind regards to all,
TheNightOwl.
