Qantas 717's for NZ?
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Qantas 717's for NZ?
Heard a rumour that Qantas's 717's are coming over the ditch to replace the 737's that are going back to Aussie.
This comes on top of the rumour that Qantas will have to employ NZ pilots for the NZ scene, from what the Transport Minister for NZ said.
About time I say!!!
Approx 90 pilots are needed.
How are they going to get the Captains though???
This comes on top of the rumour that Qantas will have to employ NZ pilots for the NZ scene, from what the Transport Minister for NZ said.
About time I say!!!
Approx 90 pilots are needed.
How are they going to get the Captains though???
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That makes a bit of sense.
The 717 is only short haul and as such is only useful on the east coast of Australia between capital cities. AD-ML-SY-BN or similar distance wise.
They in their current format would be incapable of replacing other aircraft operating for QF on longer routes and indeed they have too many seats. So what would QF do with many more of them???
Infact the Dash 8's with the long range tanks have alot better range than the 717.
I would "guess" they will get their captains along the same lines as Impulse did. Off the street and train them.
Impulse have guys off to start their sim work, and have an excess of training guys. The training guys will possibly come across and train the NZ people, the guys heading off to the sim replace these guys while they are training and realistically it will take 12-18 mnths to train Captains from who to check and training in NZ.
Just a thought, time will tell.
The 717 is only short haul and as such is only useful on the east coast of Australia between capital cities. AD-ML-SY-BN or similar distance wise.
They in their current format would be incapable of replacing other aircraft operating for QF on longer routes and indeed they have too many seats. So what would QF do with many more of them???
Infact the Dash 8's with the long range tanks have alot better range than the 717.
I would "guess" they will get their captains along the same lines as Impulse did. Off the street and train them.
Impulse have guys off to start their sim work, and have an excess of training guys. The training guys will possibly come across and train the NZ people, the guys heading off to the sim replace these guys while they are training and realistically it will take 12-18 mnths to train Captains from who to check and training in NZ.
Just a thought, time will tell.
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apart from the good news i wonder how long the implementation will take and on what time scale are we talking?
with what mark gos^&? (however you spell his name - the transport minister)said about new zealand pilots for new zealand planes, he didn't actually mention a time frame. are we talking the next 6 - 12 months or something longer or shorter?
and a further note is will they get the 90 or so pilots from the likes of eagle/ origin/ air nelson or are they going to look further afield like the g.a. scene?
with what mark gos^&? (however you spell his name - the transport minister)said about new zealand pilots for new zealand planes, he didn't actually mention a time frame. are we talking the next 6 - 12 months or something longer or shorter?
and a further note is will they get the 90 or so pilots from the likes of eagle/ origin/ air nelson or are they going to look further afield like the g.a. scene?
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Buster, me thinks you are paraphrasing somewhat.
What I seem to recall hearing, and reading in this erstwhile forum, with monotonous regularity was something like "Awstraaleeun floying for Awstraaleeuns, and we'll take anything else new that comes along as well!!!".
Back to the topic.... Our beloved Ministers of transport and Finance need to get it into their skulls that any Australian based forays into New Zealand skies must be treated in exactly the same way as past New Zealand based forays into Australian skies have been treated. They must forget the notion that there is an open skies, single aviation market policy between Australia and New Zealand because, quite plainly, in practice there is not.
The New Zealand government has been labouring (no pun intended) under the misapprehension that if they continue adhereing to the ideals of the afore mentioned aviation market, their honourable friends and collegues across the Tasman will join in. Hopefully Gosche and Cullen will be holding their collective breath whilst waiting for this to happen, will turn blue, expire and be replaced by people who have at least some understanding of what has gone on and is continuing to go on. Better still they will come to that realisation of their own accord and act appropriately for a change.
What is appropriate? How about this for starters?
1. Any QFNZ operation must be conducted under a New Zealand AOC.
2. All aircraft operated by QFNZ shall be N.Z. registered.
3. All pilots, where practicable, shall be N.Z. residents.
4. Any QFNZ operation shall have its headquarters and management based in New Zealand.
If I had more time I could probably come up with a lot more suggestions that would also be perfectly acceptable to the Australian authorities if we were talking about a non-Australian based operator setting up a domestic operation within Australia.
To do a bit of paraphrasing myself: "What's good for the Kiwis is good for the Aussies".
I await the Australian response with bated breath.
What I seem to recall hearing, and reading in this erstwhile forum, with monotonous regularity was something like "Awstraaleeun floying for Awstraaleeuns, and we'll take anything else new that comes along as well!!!".
Back to the topic.... Our beloved Ministers of transport and Finance need to get it into their skulls that any Australian based forays into New Zealand skies must be treated in exactly the same way as past New Zealand based forays into Australian skies have been treated. They must forget the notion that there is an open skies, single aviation market policy between Australia and New Zealand because, quite plainly, in practice there is not.
The New Zealand government has been labouring (no pun intended) under the misapprehension that if they continue adhereing to the ideals of the afore mentioned aviation market, their honourable friends and collegues across the Tasman will join in. Hopefully Gosche and Cullen will be holding their collective breath whilst waiting for this to happen, will turn blue, expire and be replaced by people who have at least some understanding of what has gone on and is continuing to go on. Better still they will come to that realisation of their own accord and act appropriately for a change.
What is appropriate? How about this for starters?
1. Any QFNZ operation must be conducted under a New Zealand AOC.
2. All aircraft operated by QFNZ shall be N.Z. registered.
3. All pilots, where practicable, shall be N.Z. residents.
4. Any QFNZ operation shall have its headquarters and management based in New Zealand.
If I had more time I could probably come up with a lot more suggestions that would also be perfectly acceptable to the Australian authorities if we were talking about a non-Australian based operator setting up a domestic operation within Australia.
To do a bit of paraphrasing myself: "What's good for the Kiwis is good for the Aussies".
I await the Australian response with bated breath.
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KAVU I hear that there are still quite a few ex AN/QF-NZ pilots floating around looking for work and I imagine that they would easily meet the experience requirements for a new operation in NZ. I also imagine that there are quite a few ex-pat kiwis who could be ex QFNZ as well with some reasonable experience and qualifications that are watching this space.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Mungo, methinks you must be wearing dark glasses and carrying a white cane. Your statement, [quote]...any Australian based forays into New Zealand skies must be treated in exactly the same way as past New Zealand based forays into Australian skies have been treated..<hr></blockquote>
is laughable, and that's being kind!
Remember Ansett New Zealand? A New Zealand domestic JET operation, established by Ansett Australia initially, but then - over a relatively short time frame - crewed and staffed by Kiwis.
Come the 1989 Australian pilots' dispute, from where did a considerable number of scabs come?
The Land of the Long White Cloud!
More recently, Air New Zealand bled Ansett Australia of the few remaining drops of life-blood it had, to try to save N.Z's national carrier.
Now your country has completely effectively disbanded the RNZAF, leaving Australia NO OPTION but to be left responsible for YOUR protection.
What was the term Alan Sheridan (of The Australian newspaper used...."1960's and '70's tree-hugging,....greenies"
If N.Z'ers. are LUCKY enough to be given the LUXURY of having more than one domestic carrier, thereby ensuring that they are not held to ransom by a struggling Air New Zealand, desperate for funding, then the nationality of the crews on the AUSTRALIAN-OWNED AIRCRAFT should not concern you.
Naturally, if the B717's are introduced, the initial crews WILL BE AUSTRALIANS.
Like it or lump it!
is laughable, and that's being kind!
Remember Ansett New Zealand? A New Zealand domestic JET operation, established by Ansett Australia initially, but then - over a relatively short time frame - crewed and staffed by Kiwis.
Come the 1989 Australian pilots' dispute, from where did a considerable number of scabs come?
The Land of the Long White Cloud!
More recently, Air New Zealand bled Ansett Australia of the few remaining drops of life-blood it had, to try to save N.Z's national carrier.
Now your country has completely effectively disbanded the RNZAF, leaving Australia NO OPTION but to be left responsible for YOUR protection.
What was the term Alan Sheridan (of The Australian newspaper used...."1960's and '70's tree-hugging,....greenies"
If N.Z'ers. are LUCKY enough to be given the LUXURY of having more than one domestic carrier, thereby ensuring that they are not held to ransom by a struggling Air New Zealand, desperate for funding, then the nationality of the crews on the AUSTRALIAN-OWNED AIRCRAFT should not concern you.
Naturally, if the B717's are introduced, the initial crews WILL BE AUSTRALIANS.
Like it or lump it!
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Ah err Kapt M you exaggerate a little, in 89 there were very few Ansett NZ pilots that left to go to Australia and most of them were Australians that were wanting to get back home after coming over to Kiwi with the initial set up of Ansett. You got shafted in 89 by your own countrymen not Kiwi's. Or has your memory being so fogged that the real facts have long eluded you and you are now trying to pin your 89 woes on the Kiwis. Most of us have had a guts full of "89 whingeing" and yet now you exaggerate facts so that you can just continue to grind your 89 axe and have a quick quip at the Kiwi's.
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[quote] Naturally, if the B717's are introduced, the initial crews WILL BE AUSTRALIANS. <hr></blockquote>
There may be a Kiwi or two actually. Afterall, a few who were unjustifiably dismissed after the dispute of 99 went to Impulse to pole the 717.
Plenty of ex QFNZ drivers turning blue holding their breath and going broke while hoping for something to happen...
Mr Dixon said there'd be Kiwi pilots hired "very early in the new year" for the NZ domestic operation. Well, here we are ... gotta be something happening soon. AWAS contracts expire in March? Is that right?
How reliable is your info Kavu?
There may be a Kiwi or two actually. Afterall, a few who were unjustifiably dismissed after the dispute of 99 went to Impulse to pole the 717.
Plenty of ex QFNZ drivers turning blue holding their breath and going broke while hoping for something to happen...
Mr Dixon said there'd be Kiwi pilots hired "very early in the new year" for the NZ domestic operation. Well, here we are ... gotta be something happening soon. AWAS contracts expire in March? Is that right?
How reliable is your info Kavu?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Very few Ansett NZ scabs, Horse? Would you like the list? Of those listed, ONE was an Australian! I knew each of them, personally, so please don't try to bs the issue!
Have a read of the current Ansett threads, and read history repeating itself, with many of the SAME players.
Take the blinkers off Horse, most of us have had a gutful of those whinging that 1989 is irrelevant, when in fact the pr!cks who shafted the majority then, are doing the same thing now to a different generation of pilots.
Have a read of the current Ansett threads, and read history repeating itself, with many of the SAME players.
Take the blinkers off Horse, most of us have had a gutful of those whinging that 1989 is irrelevant, when in fact the pr!cks who shafted the majority then, are doing the same thing now to a different generation of pilots.
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M you can rant and rave as much as you like but 89 was a long time ago and it was just a case Aussies shafting Aussies and if you are going to blame kiwis then I barely need I mention the oportunistic Aussies that came across to NZ in 1999. Get over it M its history.
However just a question you have left me compelled to ask, if you knew every one of those so called kiwi undesirables on a personal basis then which side of the fence were you actually on?
Yet another thread overtaken by 89 issues and Kiwi bashing so thats it from me.
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Das Pferd ]</p>
However just a question you have left me compelled to ask, if you knew every one of those so called kiwi undesirables on a personal basis then which side of the fence were you actually on?
Yet another thread overtaken by 89 issues and Kiwi bashing so thats it from me.
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Das Pferd ]</p>
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Kaptain M: Yes, I remember Ansett NZ. I also remember that a number of the 'terms and conditions' of their setting up shop in NZ were never met. Still waiting to see their engine overhaul shop and heavy maintainence facility in CHC. Granted, they did eventually get around to building a hangar in CHC.
I also remember Air NZ being ready to start domestic ops within Australia but at the 11th hour your then Minister of Transport reneged on the open skies, single aviation market agreement. Why did he do that... because the pride of Australia's domestic airways, Ansett, was afraid of the competition. They were scared that they would not survive; no, they knew that they wouldn't survive and they ran to the Australian Government for protection.
Air NZ was then told that the only way the would be able to start up in Australia would to buy an existing Australian operator. I believe that an offer was made for Australian Airlines, but the Australian government decided to 'sell' them to the the other government owned airline, QF. Why? Because the Australian government and QF management knew full well that a merging of Air New Zealand and Australian Airlines would do immense damage to QF, and quite probably would have been too good for AN either.
Then we come to the NZ/AN debacle. I would suggest that you, Kaptain M, peruse the terms and conditions placed on that purchase by the Australian government. You will see that the suggestions that I made aren't too dissimilar to ones that can be found in that particular document.
For you to say that Air NZ bled Ansett dry is laughable. The cash was flowing one way and one way only, westward to a money eating black hole in Melbourne. You must have read the posts in this forum ANers gloating over the fact that any profit the NZ operation was making was simply bypassing the NZ bank accounts and going straight to MEL to pay their wages. Ask Jensen and Rhindflesh where the multi-million dollar blow-out in the flight operations budget went. It is my understanding that we are talking in terms of tens of millions of dollars. Their witch-hunt, much, I hope, to their chagrin confirmed that all of the money disappeared on the western side of the Tasman, and it seems they have no idea of where it went and what it was spent on!!!
To use a quaint little okkerism, even blind Freddie should be able to see that Ansett was bleeding Air NZ dry, and not the other way around. But then maybe Freddie's dropped his white stick, forgoteen to feed the dog and never did figure out the intracasies of braille. (Just a thought Kaptain M, no offence intended, but your name wouldn't happen to be Freddie, would it??).
What the state of NZ's military has got to do with this has me baffled. I'm as aghast as anyone with what's going on in that arena and certainly have no desire to be beholding to any red-necked, hairy-arsed Australian for my country's "defence". Maybe it's just the usual Australian tactic of throwing a well-past-its-use-by-date red herring, a few smoke bombs, some mirrors and a few bright lights into an argument that they know they can't win otherwise.
If you had bothered to read what I had written you would have noticed that I said "All pilots,where practicable, shall be N.Z. residents". That allows for qualified overseas nationals to be temporarily employed for the purpose of training the locals, so on that score it's perfectly acceptable and there's nothing for me lump.
All I have suggested is that QF be told to play to the same rules NZ was forced to play to in Australia, and if Mr Dixon doesn't like it, then he's the one that can lump it!!
I also remember Air NZ being ready to start domestic ops within Australia but at the 11th hour your then Minister of Transport reneged on the open skies, single aviation market agreement. Why did he do that... because the pride of Australia's domestic airways, Ansett, was afraid of the competition. They were scared that they would not survive; no, they knew that they wouldn't survive and they ran to the Australian Government for protection.
Air NZ was then told that the only way the would be able to start up in Australia would to buy an existing Australian operator. I believe that an offer was made for Australian Airlines, but the Australian government decided to 'sell' them to the the other government owned airline, QF. Why? Because the Australian government and QF management knew full well that a merging of Air New Zealand and Australian Airlines would do immense damage to QF, and quite probably would have been too good for AN either.
Then we come to the NZ/AN debacle. I would suggest that you, Kaptain M, peruse the terms and conditions placed on that purchase by the Australian government. You will see that the suggestions that I made aren't too dissimilar to ones that can be found in that particular document.
For you to say that Air NZ bled Ansett dry is laughable. The cash was flowing one way and one way only, westward to a money eating black hole in Melbourne. You must have read the posts in this forum ANers gloating over the fact that any profit the NZ operation was making was simply bypassing the NZ bank accounts and going straight to MEL to pay their wages. Ask Jensen and Rhindflesh where the multi-million dollar blow-out in the flight operations budget went. It is my understanding that we are talking in terms of tens of millions of dollars. Their witch-hunt, much, I hope, to their chagrin confirmed that all of the money disappeared on the western side of the Tasman, and it seems they have no idea of where it went and what it was spent on!!!
To use a quaint little okkerism, even blind Freddie should be able to see that Ansett was bleeding Air NZ dry, and not the other way around. But then maybe Freddie's dropped his white stick, forgoteen to feed the dog and never did figure out the intracasies of braille. (Just a thought Kaptain M, no offence intended, but your name wouldn't happen to be Freddie, would it??).
What the state of NZ's military has got to do with this has me baffled. I'm as aghast as anyone with what's going on in that arena and certainly have no desire to be beholding to any red-necked, hairy-arsed Australian for my country's "defence". Maybe it's just the usual Australian tactic of throwing a well-past-its-use-by-date red herring, a few smoke bombs, some mirrors and a few bright lights into an argument that they know they can't win otherwise.
If you had bothered to read what I had written you would have noticed that I said "All pilots,where practicable, shall be N.Z. residents". That allows for qualified overseas nationals to be temporarily employed for the purpose of training the locals, so on that score it's perfectly acceptable and there's nothing for me lump.
All I have suggested is that QF be told to play to the same rules NZ was forced to play to in Australia, and if Mr Dixon doesn't like it, then he's the one that can lump it!!
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I was talking to a QF mate who flew the other day with somebody concerned with Qantas recruitment. Apparently the hold up with employing NZ pilots is the difficulty finding enough that meet QFs standards. Don't shoot the messenger.
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Boeing Belly ]</p>
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Boeing Belly ]</p>
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Have to put my ten cents worth in here.
There's still a lot of ex ANNZ/QFNZ pilots waiting for Geoff Dixons words to bear fruit.
As to being not suitably qualified needs further definition. To post such a quote then bleat "don't shoot the messenger", makes me think the post is nothing short of a wind up.
Anyway, I'd really like the opportunity to apply for one of these jobs; just tell me how. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
There's still a lot of ex ANNZ/QFNZ pilots waiting for Geoff Dixons words to bear fruit.
As to being not suitably qualified needs further definition. To post such a quote then bleat "don't shoot the messenger", makes me think the post is nothing short of a wind up.
Anyway, I'd really like the opportunity to apply for one of these jobs; just tell me how. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Pferd, a little lateral thinking would answer your question as to how I knew those AN NZ scabs personally - however, to help you along the way, you may recall that the initial jet operations were kicked off using Ansett Australia pilots 
Mungo, we seem to have found (considerable) common ground with your last post - I concur with most of what you've penned wrt the demise of Ansett Australia. Yes, it was WELL on its way to its deathbed at the time that Air New Zealand took the reins, however I believe that ANZ were not entirely innocent in as I said bleeding [quote]....Ansett Australia of the few remaining drops of life-blood it had, to try to save N.Z's national carrier.<hr></blockquote>
....and reneging on the responsibilities of payment for the affected Ansett staff.
[quote]If you had bothered to read what I had written you would have noticed that I said "All pilots,where practicable, shall be N.Z. residents". That allows for qualified overseas nationals to be temporarily employed for the purpose of training the locals, so on that score it's perfectly acceptable and there's nothing for me lump.<hr></blockquote>
Agreed!
But remember that it is Australian money that is providing Kiwis with another airline service, just as it is Australian taxpayers' money that is now required to defend N.Z.
Unless of course Ms Clarke agrees to leasing Australia's Air Force. And if she does, will the Kiwi RNZAF pilots then similarly demand that THEY fly our fighter aircraft?
Mungo, we seem to have found (considerable) common ground with your last post - I concur with most of what you've penned wrt the demise of Ansett Australia. Yes, it was WELL on its way to its deathbed at the time that Air New Zealand took the reins, however I believe that ANZ were not entirely innocent in as I said bleeding [quote]....Ansett Australia of the few remaining drops of life-blood it had, to try to save N.Z's national carrier.<hr></blockquote>
....and reneging on the responsibilities of payment for the affected Ansett staff.
[quote]If you had bothered to read what I had written you would have noticed that I said "All pilots,where practicable, shall be N.Z. residents". That allows for qualified overseas nationals to be temporarily employed for the purpose of training the locals, so on that score it's perfectly acceptable and there's nothing for me lump.<hr></blockquote>
Agreed!
But remember that it is Australian money that is providing Kiwis with another airline service, just as it is Australian taxpayers' money that is now required to defend N.Z.
Unless of course Ms Clarke agrees to leasing Australia's Air Force. And if she does, will the Kiwi RNZAF pilots then similarly demand that THEY fly our fighter aircraft?