Should airline pilots be armed???
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Should airline pilots be armed???
This may be a rhetorical question, even a knee jerk reaction, but airliners have been targets for terrorists and criminals for years, but the occurences in the US are really over the top. Pilots are defenseless against these acts.
Therefore, the question begs; should airline pilots be armed (pistols, tazars, chemical weapons ie mace/pepper spray etc)in order to defend against the taking over of an aircraft??
Therefore, the question begs; should airline pilots be armed (pistols, tazars, chemical weapons ie mace/pepper spray etc)in order to defend against the taking over of an aircraft??
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Yep I recon we should
A handgun would be nice an LSW even better but a bit of an over kill and you cant realy use pepper spray in side an a/c ,but...... a tazer would be great one of those 200,000 volt mo fo's it wouldn't kill them just put them down for 20 mins or so .It all sound good an easy but then every one has to be trained how to use them etc etc and I dont think airlines would like that idea to much but i do agree we should have somthing to stop this happening like maybey locking the flight deck dore .
A handgun would be nice an LSW even better but a bit of an over kill and you cant realy use pepper spray in side an a/c ,but...... a tazer would be great one of those 200,000 volt mo fo's it wouldn't kill them just put them down for 20 mins or so .It all sound good an easy but then every one has to be trained how to use them etc etc and I dont think airlines would like that idea to much but i do agree we should have somthing to stop this happening like maybey locking the flight deck dore .
Grandpa Aerotart
The same discussion was had back in the 70s when hijacking first became a popular tool of terror. Airlines discounted the possibility.
If a terrorist is standing there with a grenade, sans pin, are you going to shoot him?
These individuals should be stopped at the terminal however to achieve that the security checks required would cause mayhem in busy terminals.
People, and especially Airline Management(read Beancounters) would scream blue bloody murder at the gridlock that would ensue.
What has happened in the USA has been one of their greatest worries, and yet security at the airports involved let these people through. After much rhetoric and arse covering things will return to the same in time.
Chuck.
PS. As far as locked cocpit doors are concerned, this was also discussed back in the 70s and discounted. If the same dude with the grenade is outside the cockpit door promising to blow up the plane if you don't open it what are you going to do? Given that we KNOW these people will kill themselves without hesitation! And if they are devious enough to smuggle handguns and/or a grenade onto an aircraft how difficult to smuggle on a shaped charge of plastique that would open the cockpit door for them? It would only be the size of a ten cent piece!
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
If a terrorist is standing there with a grenade, sans pin, are you going to shoot him?
These individuals should be stopped at the terminal however to achieve that the security checks required would cause mayhem in busy terminals.
People, and especially Airline Management(read Beancounters) would scream blue bloody murder at the gridlock that would ensue.
What has happened in the USA has been one of their greatest worries, and yet security at the airports involved let these people through. After much rhetoric and arse covering things will return to the same in time.
Chuck.
PS. As far as locked cocpit doors are concerned, this was also discussed back in the 70s and discounted. If the same dude with the grenade is outside the cockpit door promising to blow up the plane if you don't open it what are you going to do? Given that we KNOW these people will kill themselves without hesitation! And if they are devious enough to smuggle handguns and/or a grenade onto an aircraft how difficult to smuggle on a shaped charge of plastique that would open the cockpit door for them? It would only be the size of a ten cent piece!
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
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Probably not a real good plan for pilots to carry guns on their person or in the flight deck - it would just mean that the would-be hijacker won't need to carry their own weapon on board - just grab the ones off the pilots.
Not only that, if a pilot did end up fatally shooting a terrorist, they'd most likely end up on murder charges no matter how many lives they saved. Unfortunately that's the way the justice system can work.
Pepper spray might be okay, but what would a taser do to avionics??
Not only that, if a pilot did end up fatally shooting a terrorist, they'd most likely end up on murder charges no matter how many lives they saved. Unfortunately that's the way the justice system can work.
Pepper spray might be okay, but what would a taser do to avionics??
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I don't know if I agree or disagree. One would only hope that this is a one off occurance. But when some news reports are speculating that up to 180000 people could have been in the World Trade buildings today I definatly think that the anti-terrorist training should be looked at again.
I know that it may be a little bit extreme, but we have to face facts that this world we live in is becoming more dangerous every day. These terrorist fanatics will obviously stop at nothing to acheive their goals.
I understand that a lot of cabin crew are ex-police, perhaps this experience should be capitalised on and maybe even become another addition to crew training.
Once again I will state that even as I write this down I feel that it is a little extreme, but we are only the next step behind the USA-- that could be us in 10 years.
I know that it may be a little bit extreme, but we have to face facts that this world we live in is becoming more dangerous every day. These terrorist fanatics will obviously stop at nothing to acheive their goals.
I understand that a lot of cabin crew are ex-police, perhaps this experience should be capitalised on and maybe even become another addition to crew training.
Once again I will state that even as I write this down I feel that it is a little extreme, but we are only the next step behind the USA-- that could be us in 10 years.
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That was the second thing that crossed my mind when told of this disaster - after "...Tom Clancy has a lot to answer for..."
Prison officers are not armed for a simple reason: it would be easy enough for an inmate to take the weapon off you and use it against you.
And for the record, cockpit doors ARE locked in the USA and no amount of ATPL or airline ID can get you into the jumpseat.
Well trained and fanatical terrorists will take more to stop than a pimply S/O waving a 9mm Glock.
Prison officers are not armed for a simple reason: it would be easy enough for an inmate to take the weapon off you and use it against you.
And for the record, cockpit doors ARE locked in the USA and no amount of ATPL or airline ID can get you into the jumpseat.
Well trained and fanatical terrorists will take more to stop than a pimply S/O waving a 9mm Glock.
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It's now gone way out of line.
All Pax bags must be xrayed
Delays noted, however its now the way of life.
How the weapons got through is another thing.
We'll probably find there was a broken link somewhere in the system.
A lot of planning has gone into this.
AA & United's equal opportunity employment policy would allow employment of suspect Middle Eastern workers ,thus the do gooder attitude has caused this possible chaos!
Beware.
All Pax bags must be xrayed
Delays noted, however its now the way of life.
How the weapons got through is another thing.
We'll probably find there was a broken link somewhere in the system.
A lot of planning has gone into this.
AA & United's equal opportunity employment policy would allow employment of suspect Middle Eastern workers ,thus the do gooder attitude has caused this possible chaos!
Beware.
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Yeh I agree with the fact that anything that is carried can be used against you if thay gat their hands on it but i still think i would feel better know that when that dude is standing their saying "open the dore or i shoot" i had a second chance in somthing like a tazar or somthing similar
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It might be time that we all followed El Al's procedures,armed pilots and at least one armed security guard (incognito) per aircraft,when was the last time they had a hijacking?.
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Lets face it airlines and governments can do all they can to prevent this, But if some whacko wants to, and he has support from some disgruntled baggage handler, then this well invariably happen again. Sure make changes and wave the big stick around but it could and probably will happen again.
Thank god I am not living in afghanistan at the moment.
"An eye for an eye"
Thank god I am not living in afghanistan at the moment.
"An eye for an eye"
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Well Helibiggles has it with the gun idea. Bullets and pressurised aluminium foil don't really mix. Tazzer seems the better option. But, also like others have metioned it is but another weapon that could be take off our hands and used against us.
Maybe sleeping gas capsules for the cabin area is an idea (any thoughts?) but still useless against an idiot with a grenade.
Maybe sleeping gas capsules for the cabin area is an idea (any thoughts?) but still useless against an idiot with a grenade.
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1. These guys had plastic box cutters, it seems. Even the best security might not have caught that.
2. Most airlines teach crews to cooperate with hijackers, in the hope that they will let everyone live. Maybe we should change that to resistance, no matter what.
Most cabin crews consist of girls, who would find it hard to fight, but just as in rape cases, those who fight back are more likely to survive than those who do not.
3. They actually have a fast fix available in the US. Many civilians are authorised to carry handguns, concealed. They are checked out by the local police before such a certificate of carry is issued. Just as police and security personnel are allowed to carry their guns on flights (yes! they do! Shock horror to the anti gun crowd!) so should these permit holders.
An armed passenger could be able to take out the hijacker(s), especially since it is likely that the criminal will not have a gun, and most explosives are found to be fake.
I would much prefer a sky marshall of course, with suitable low velocity bullets in his gun, but in his absense, I would hope that I had someone who was on my side.
A bullet in the chest will not damage the airplane, and even if it does, it will hardly be as destructive as what we have seen on tv today. What's the worst case, rapid depressurisation?
2. Most airlines teach crews to cooperate with hijackers, in the hope that they will let everyone live. Maybe we should change that to resistance, no matter what.
Most cabin crews consist of girls, who would find it hard to fight, but just as in rape cases, those who fight back are more likely to survive than those who do not.
3. They actually have a fast fix available in the US. Many civilians are authorised to carry handguns, concealed. They are checked out by the local police before such a certificate of carry is issued. Just as police and security personnel are allowed to carry their guns on flights (yes! they do! Shock horror to the anti gun crowd!) so should these permit holders.
An armed passenger could be able to take out the hijacker(s), especially since it is likely that the criminal will not have a gun, and most explosives are found to be fake.
I would much prefer a sky marshall of course, with suitable low velocity bullets in his gun, but in his absense, I would hope that I had someone who was on my side.
A bullet in the chest will not damage the airplane, and even if it does, it will hardly be as destructive as what we have seen on tv today. What's the worst case, rapid depressurisation?
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Instead of arming crews, why not isolate them from attack!
Cockpit separated from cabin by armoured bulkhead.
Independent pressurisation systems for cockpit and cabin.
External access door to cockpit preventing entry except on the ground.
Cockpit separated from cabin by armoured bulkhead.
Independent pressurisation systems for cockpit and cabin.
External access door to cockpit preventing entry except on the ground.
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ok then but who feeds us and what if all the cabin crew are dead who looks after the pax and most important of all how do you go down the back to check out all the lovely laidies what if our door is jamed shut how do we get out ,na i recon leave the door how it is keep it locked as well as have somthing their if the worst should happen like a tazar
how much do you think having one or two armed gaurds on a flight would add to the cost of a ticket not much and if you advertised the fact i recon you would get a lot of people wanting to pay the extra
how much do you think having one or two armed gaurds on a flight would add to the cost of a ticket not much and if you advertised the fact i recon you would get a lot of people wanting to pay the extra
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Definetely not! Unless the pilot's are trained to guarantee to bring the offender down like a bag of **** . Imagine shots fired and missed in an aircraft. Oxygen, fuel, people e.t.c
I had a good talk last night with a friend of mine, ex Aus army Special Forces. He recommends highly trained armed undercover agents either Army, Feds, or Protective Service randomly flying on Commercial flights, especially one's classified as higher risk. Apparently the US is looking at implementing something like this very soon. His thoughts also: To not allow any more muslims or arabs in our country or the US, and for the one's that are currently residents or visiting to be assembled and "shiped"out ASAP. To not allow any of them to board any Australian or US aircraft anywhere in the world. Their countries airlines can fly in or out as long as they are not on allowed on these flights.
I think I will have to stop him there, as he is starting to shake with anger! He can write a whole volume of world books on this subject. til then.........
I had a good talk last night with a friend of mine, ex Aus army Special Forces. He recommends highly trained armed undercover agents either Army, Feds, or Protective Service randomly flying on Commercial flights, especially one's classified as higher risk. Apparently the US is looking at implementing something like this very soon. His thoughts also: To not allow any more muslims or arabs in our country or the US, and for the one's that are currently residents or visiting to be assembled and "shiped"out ASAP. To not allow any of them to board any Australian or US aircraft anywhere in the world. Their countries airlines can fly in or out as long as they are not on allowed on these flights.
I think I will have to stop him there, as he is starting to shake with anger! He can write a whole volume of world books on this subject. til then.........
When was the last time El_AL got hijacked?. Quite a while ago. What did they do about it. All their flights now have undercover armed agents waiting to kill terrorists if they are stupid enough to rear their ugly head.
If this is too much for the beancounters (after all they are revenue seats that these agents would occupy), then a handgun in the cockpit is probably the best short term solution. With appropriate training for tech crew, the worst can probably be prevented. If it does happen, they were probably going to be dead anyway. Even a grenade going off would not, unless you were very unlucky, bring down a modern airliner. No more of this pacifist crap, we need to fight back, and hard.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: clear to land ]
If this is too much for the beancounters (after all they are revenue seats that these agents would occupy), then a handgun in the cockpit is probably the best short term solution. With appropriate training for tech crew, the worst can probably be prevented. If it does happen, they were probably going to be dead anyway. Even a grenade going off would not, unless you were very unlucky, bring down a modern airliner. No more of this pacifist crap, we need to fight back, and hard.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: clear to land ]