Audible pressure alarms may have prevented plane crash
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Audible pressure alarms may have prevented plane crash
From the ABC website..... .. .<a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/qld/metqld-7mar2002-22.htm" target="_blank">http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/qld/metqld-7mar2002-22.htm</a>. .. .Audible pressure alarms may have prevented plane crash. .. .A report into one of Australia's worst aviation disasters says the accident could have been prevented if audible pressure alarms were fitted in the aircraft.. .. .All eight men on board the Beech Super King Air died when the plane became de-pressurised and crashed in Queensland, far from its destination of Leonora in Western Australia.. .. .The Australian Transport Safety Bureau has made an inconclusive finding into the crash at Burketown in September 2000. . .. .A report released today says a lack of oxygen in the cabin was the probable cause of the pilot and seven mine workers becoming unconscious.. .. .Chief executive Kim Bills says "that could be because the aircraft wasn't pressurised from the time it took off or it could be because there was a hole leak during flight.". .. .The Civil Aviation Safety Authority has adopted a recommendation that turbo prop jets be fitted with an audible de-pressurisation alarm. . .. .Spokesman Peter Gibson says it will improve safety. . .. ."We believe audible alarms will improve safety in these aircraft, they will alert pilots to possible pressurisation problems," he said.. .. .Saw pictures of plane crash as I walked past the telly a few mins ago. Found out that it was this. pheww..
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Umm, the Master Warning is pretty hard to miss (speaking from experience) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="redface.gif" /> whether you keep it in your scan or not.. .. .Let's put audible warnings on oil pressure, doors, smoke detectors, etc while we're at it.. .. .Caveat emptor.
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So, in addition to these AFM checks -. .. .1: Before start - oxy system ready. .2: Before takeoff - Pressurization SET. .3: Before takeoff - Bleed air valves - OPEN. .. .and. .. .4: After takeoff - Cabin pressurization CHECK. .. .A pressure switch that drops the pax masks if the above has been done, and a big red light that flashes at eye level directly in front of the pilot (and co pilot just in case one breaks),. .. .they also want aural warnings.. .. .Yep, that should do it.. . . . <small>[ 07 March 2002, 12:49: Message edited by: Ivana Tinkle ]</small>
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HL,. .. .The cyanide issue was raised early in the investigation as traces were allegedly found in some of the deceased. This however could have been attributed to the fact that being mining workers, they quite probably would have had access or exposure to cyanide at sometime during their work in the industry.. .. .Whilst the ATSB has made a recommendation about the aural warning system for cabin pressure, the fact is that the aircraft was destroyed to the point where very little conclusive proof as to cause could be made.. .. .RIP Ken, you are sorely missed.
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Hugh. .. .Too true mon ami.. .. .Lets not get away from the fact that it was the oldest B200 in OZ and probably one of the oldest and highest time B200 in the world with, if I recall correctly, most of it put on in Oz.. .. .I have put enough old heaps of **** to the sword to know that the gizzards of the pressurisation systems of that or ANY vintage do NOT improve with age. Seriously serious money is needed to overhaul the systems to make them safe, the "if it aint broke dont fix it" mentality is seriously fatal.. .. .That coupled with pressurisation "endorsements" mostly consisting of being shown how to turn it on and off, set the cabin descent rate and landing PH and a simulated emergency descent, if you are lucky, almost absolutely without discussion of any physiological markers or the benefit of a depressurisation chamber run sets you right up for this sort of event.. .. .It helps too if you have a formal line training programme for the crew. Being a really nice bloke is really nice, but is hardly the point.. .. .If any body is tempted to disagree with this thesis, then I suggest you go to the attic and dig out the snorkel and mask set your granny gave you 30 years ago with your bucket and spade set and lets go do some SCUBA diving down to say, oh I dont know 10 metres. How many of you would go SCUBA diving using a 20 plus year old regulator that had never been touched since manufacture.. .. .Horns and whistles yeah right, they only tell you when it's almost too late, master caution panels ?? yeah right, if you can see the light through the 30 years of grime and crazing, if indeed the test button is used or works. . .. .Until the regulator puts an age limit on the operation of any equipment used for hire and reward, air taxi or whatever you want to call it, these sort of events will continue to happen.. .. .There has been a huge amount of money spent to produce a report that says everything and absolutely nothing except what is as plain as the nose on your face.. .. .I felt sorry for the ATSB chap earnestly reading the result on the news as if it was a result. I couldn't help wondering if I hadn't accidently tuned into the news on another planet.. .. .But then you can't be expected to know what you dont know, you know.
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Question is why did none of the warning systems work as there are many,and why didn't the masks fall out when the cabin alt reached 12,500ft. There must be more to it than the pressurisation failed. Could fumes from the bleed air have overcome everone.
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Aerocom, exactly. . .. .If the case was that there was something wrong with the systems then why wasn't it picked up on previous flights. These systems do show warning signs of impending failures, whether on previous flights or at the pre flight check, they should be noticed.. .. .But I think the point to this is, how can a still undetermined cause for this accident suggest the need for an addition to the already quite adequate systems in the B200.. .. .Lets face it. I've flown 200s of this vintage and the pressurization and oxy systems functioned quite well. As above, if they didn't, the pilots spoke up about them. As we all know, problems with these are unacceptable.. .. .Gaunty, Your pilot training angle has a lot of merit. These aircraft are high performance and demand a high level of awareness. If anyone was to hop into one of these types without full knowledge of what makes it go, they are just asking for it.
Gaunty. Whilst I can't speak for that particular King Air in recent years, I'm not sure it would be the highest time SKA200 in Australia. . .. .VH-SKC was purchased by Flight West in 1987, through Hawker Pacific from the Philippines where it was registered RP-C200 to the Bank of the Philippine Islands. At the time it had approximately 2,200 hours TTSN and had Air Asia overhauled engines, which were subsequently replaced with Pratt overhauled engines, modified to -42 standards. It was a very early model/low double digit serial number King Air 200 (originally -41 engines), although I don't recall the S/N.. .. .Being a very early model, it was very light. It cost over $135,000 (from memory) to place on the Australian Register and modify to RPT standards. It was subsequently maintained to an Approved System of Maintenance until it's disposal by Flight West.. .. .I seem to recall 30,000 hour plus King Airs in Australia, possibly with Norfolk Island Airlines. I doubt VH-SKC would have operated anywhere near that number of hours.. .. .The ATSB "made an inconclusive finding". I suspect that neither age nor total hours would be a relevent factor in the accident.. .. .An audible pressurisation device should be relatively simple and cheap to manufacture and install. Whilst I haven't followed the investigation or seen the ATSB Report, the reasoning seems to be that in a confused state of hypoxia, a pilot's judgement and interpretation of visual devices may be impaired. Certainly the last radio communication with VH-SKC seem to indicate the pilot was very confused. An audible devise, with specific strident tone, may be better interpreted by a pilot in this condition.. .. .An audible pressurisation devise may be a cheap safety enhancement, particularly as two similar fatal accidents (one in the USA, one in Australia) occurred in a short span of time.. .. .Aerocom, I suspect if fumes were present traces would have been found in post mortem procedures. That aircraft's oxygen system was modified on arrival in Australia to include drop down masks (I don't think it originally had passenger oxygen masks) but I can't recall if they were automatic or manual. I seem to recall a lower max altitude limit was imposed? Some of the pilots who flew that aircraft may remember better than I.. . . . <small>[ 08 March 2002, 00:36: Message edited by: Torres ]</small>
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The following link is on the ATSB website of a King Air operated by the RAAF that was not pressurised and did not activate all emergency systems as advertised, (for a number of reasons).. .. .Interesting reading as it could quite easily have been a very similar incident. . .. .<a href="http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=272" target="_blank">http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=272</a>
There was a thread that dealt with all the operational issues in considerable (and refreshingly objective) detail. Can't recall the name, however.. .. .Torres is on track with his point about the difference between visual and aural warnings. The physiological fact is that hypoxia usually impacts upon vision before it impacts upon hearing.
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An audible alarm would be working off the same systems as the master warning, so if none of these saftey systems were said to go off on the RAAF King Air then why would an audible alarm not fail as well.If no warnings went off in this accident then maybe there is a fault developing with the King Air pressurisation system. Maybe the recomendation should be to start doing a more complex 6 monthly check on pressurisation systems and there associated warning devices.. .It would be interesting to hear from any RFDS pilots to see if they have had any similar incidents being one of the longest King Air operators. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />
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aerocom. .That's about it in a nutshell. Calibration and inspection of the baros and warning systems, should be a six month check.. .Also diff check on each engine in turn.. .. .When the system gets old and dodgy you can get max diff on two but not on one, I haven't seen many operators routinely call up single source checks. If there are any incipient faults or leaks developing this is one way of revealing it.. .. .Had a 690B I was trying to sort out and even a stem to stern OH of all of the components would barely get max diff on both and certainly not on one. We eventually worked out to pump it up on the ground (at great expense) and with the soapy water routine found all the hull leaks. The bog material used to seal the hull doesn't age well especially in the heat and stress of old high time frames.. .. .Having said that I nearly lost a fairly young Conquest 11 with crew and 10 pax due to the failure of the crew to select BOTH then transposing the cabin alt/cabin diff readings which were correctly telling them what was up and despite the masks dropping down when they should have, because they were convinced every thing was really OK and that they had probably inadvertantly manually deployed them. Of course everything is fine when you are hypoxic. Thats a classic symptom.. .They should have stopped the climb the moment the masks deployed.. .The Cabin Alt light is right in front of your nose. . .Even the pax complained of shortness of breath etc, not surprising considering the cabin alt would have been towards 18,000 ft. The crew insisted after the flight that there was nothing amiss apart from the inconvenience of restowing the masks.. .There was an underlying problem that was revealed however, but the crew ignored the light, rationalised the masks dropping down and the pax complaints, and were just were not capable of the cognitive thought necessary to integrate the information correctly.. .Fortunately it was a short sector and they only went to FL250 in a type that you would routinely cruise at over FL300 and with this types climb profile you'd have got there pretty quickly too, in this instance they would have dropped into the sea some way south of Albany and north of Antartctica.. .. .I doubt in this scenario that a bell or horn would have changed their mindset.. .. .Needless to say they recieved vigorous counselling and some seriously in depth retraining.. .. .I still shudder at the thought.
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There is no real surety that another warning device is going to prevent this tragedy from re-occurring. I believe you are being naïve if you consider this will solve the problem.. .. .Thorough training at the point of endorsement, and. .. .Vigilant line training by the Operator, and. .. .Recurrent checking to ensure knowledge is not only retained, but also enhanced.. .. .Along with this, the pilot in command must be aware that they are routinely operating in an environment where the air is so lacking in oxygen that you would not be able to sustain the striking of a match if they were expose to the elements.. .. .To cap this off – all the above counts for naught if you DO NOT HAVE A GOOD MAINTENANCE REGIME!!!!!
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Beech Boy. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> an environment where the air is so lacking in oxygen that you would not be able to sustain the striking of a match if they were expose to the elements.. .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Oxygen is still there in the same ratio as it is at sea level...........unless Messrs Pratt and Whitney et al have been having a real lend of us.. .. .But they like us, need it to be delivered in a denser form to enable the combustion process thereof.. .. .I'm in a picky mood today, forgot to take my Prozac, but I know what you are trying to say
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Gaunty,. .. .No debate in that! . .. .My post simply suggests the “operating………environment” where the elements required - in that parcel of air- are lacking in sufficient state for said striking of match.. .. .Very thrilled to see that you did get the point however. Take that pill.. .. .Prozac, should be put in the water.
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ok guys and girls we all have voiced our opion on this topic so what do we next. Am no sure on the lighting matches thing in the cabin though beechboy to check the air quality. Seriously there is a report on the atsb about a King Air that had toxic fumes in the cabin but the fumes were said to register as Non Toxic fumes in the pax as I read it. Alright if you want to get involved we will approach Casa and try to help them with a pilots approach and deal with this topic and find a solution. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />
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aerocom.. .. .I'm on your side.. .. .But we must fix the real problem in addition to upgrading pilot training.. .. .And adding another bell or whistle to a aging 1960's system is only the garnish.
