Audible pressure alarms may have prevented plane crash
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OK, I’ll kick off for what it’s worth, maybe we can start a list:. .. .With an unlimited budget I would- (safety comes at a price).. .. .1. Ensure that all systems that warn the pilot of a pressurisation problem are actually working. This includes carrying out, at prescribed intervals, a Flight Test of these systems.. .. .Checking that:. . A: All switch position indicator . . lights function as required,. .. . B: The Master Warning light . . illuminates at 12500 when the . . aircraft is unpressurised,. .. . C: All the masks deploy on schedule,. .. . D: Masks are correctly packed or . . repacked in their bays.. .. .2. Ensure that Flow Pack functionality is as per specification. This could be conducted on the same Flight Test.. .. .3. Mandatory interval ground pressurisation tests on the hull to see if it will achieve the appropriate pressure differential at a prescribed air inflow rate, and fix all holes.. .. .4. Consideration to time expiring some of the more aging components in these systems, Maybe an engineering boffin could add more light here... .. .5. A definite revisiting of the pilot endorsement profile that gives greater importance in the recognition of Hypoxia and the actions for recovery.. .. .6. Regulated intervals for Pilot Recurrent training, pilot recurrent training, pilot recurrent training. Whether pilots be under a Check and training regime or not. A means of being able to ensue that Operators maintain their responsibility in this regard- not allowing just anybody to plug into the left seat that might happen to be endorsed.. .. .7. An Operators with Non-flying crew to have appropriate initial training, and undergo regular recurrent training.. . . .Note:. .I have been told that the maintenance manual does not require flight-testing that would determine functionality of the aneroid, the aneroid (which makes the masks automatically drop at 12500 if not pressurised- with the system armed) has no requirement to be checked –ever! I know that they have to a deploy test, with the manual deploy system.. .. .Oh yeah, and not forgetting the trusty box of matches for the Hugh effusion. Incidentally, the match was to be lit “OUTSIDE”, jees you guys are tuff!
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I dont know about others' endorsements, but my company has all trainees climb with oxygen masks on, bleed air off and actually have the master warning indicate cabin alt and that all masks deploy as advertised. If there is a problem, it is written up and fixed. An engineer is brought in to repack the pax masks after the event.
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As usual we in the industry all seem to have the right approach to fix the problem instead of making the aeroplane sound like a kids musical toy. I remember something in the ATPL human factors exam years ago mentioning that to many alarms in the cockpit can leed to confusion about what problem is occuring. Beechboy and Gaunty you both have excellent ideas about how to fix things, what do we do to start the Casa paper trail. Would it be better to submit ideas to the ATSB and see if they will make a recomendation to Casa. I remember going to the Casa traveling sideshow last year to listen to there pressurisation presentation after the accident occured in Queensland, there display and presentation was flash but they weren't listening to the industry when points were raised. Did any one else who attended ever get a promised video and info pack. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
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I discovered this device called a flightstat pulse oximeter while looking at some pilots shops in the US. There is a write up on it in the US AOPA mag. From what I read it seems to be a great idea.web page is <a href="http://www.nonin.com" target="_blank">www.nonin.com</a>
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Interesting footnote on "too many bells & whistles" in the cockpit guys.. .. .I am given to understand that the very same audible alarm you are baulking at fitting to the older 200 series, is standard fit in the Beech 350.. .. .Now why would that be? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />
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Did a couple of pre ferry test flights on ex Flight West B200's before they went of to the USA or somewhere a while back out of YBBN.. .One thing we would look at was to climb to alt. and switch of a bleed and see what happened.. .What I expected to see was an initial cabin climb then a a recovery of cabin diff./alt. by the remaining bleed.. .Neither could hold cabin alt with only one bleed.. .Reported this and other problems, but someone still jumped in and flew over a whole lot of water where a DP sector would have resulted in a swim.I dont know that any amount of traiing would have an effect on this type of personality.. . Is this not the same vintage B200 that if the sun shone on your cowls from the wrong direction for long enough you would get fire indications? I wonder how many people ignored those master warnings, versus blowing a bottle etc?
Quality endorsement and regular check and training pays dividends! Endorsements? You get what you pay for! . .. .I recall a CASA FOI with less than 2 hours total on the C208B, decided on a Chief Pilot "check ride" and pulled the engine at 300 feet AGL off RW 08 at Horn Island, without warning. . .. .Fortunately, the Chief Pilot was a very competant and experienced young man and saved what could have been a totally disasterous situation...... .. .That young man has now gone on to bigger and better things. I won't comment on the FOI, but presumably he can continue to create mayhem at his NSW CASA base........ .. .Pay peanuts for an endorsement and you get flying monkeys.. .. .I wish to emphasise I am not commenting on the qualifications of the pilot of VH-SKC, simply commenting on the quality of some Aussie type endorsements.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />
Puff. You are correct. I was visiting Brisbane (a little civilisation for a change) and like Bendigo in another thread, used a mate's home PC not realising he was signed into PPRuNe. . .. .Now back on my own portable computer, I had the original post deleted and I reposted, thus correcting the mistake.. .. .Surprisingly Puff, I have many, many friends in the aviation industry. Some even work for CASA.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .I was trying to emphasise that Australia seems to be a land of cheap endorsements. Whilst a type endorsement is "competancy based", pilots will continue to seek endorsements at lowest cost. Regardless of experience, a C208 endorsement in under 2 hours is ludicrous and verging on bloody dangerous.. .. .The quality of the pilot's endorsement, his type experience, company check and training procedures and company policy of single pilot operations, may (or may not) have been factors in the accident. We'll probably never know.. . . . <small>[ 29 March 2002, 16:24: Message edited by: Torres ]</small>
A plausible explanation Air Ace (whoops...Torres.) And I do mean plausible.. .. .Nice of Air Ace to give you his password so that you could remove his post later, using another computer. Makes it a bit tricky for you to claim you're not posting under that pseudonym as well, doesn't it? . .. .BTW. We are well aware of who your friends in CASA are.
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We are probably getting further to the point with better recomendations than we have seen so far from CASA on this subject.. .. .While I tend to agree that an EXTRA warning does sound like overkill, maybe it will be the one which may prevent another acident of this nature. Sure we can pad everone in cotton wool and have triple redundant features but if just one of them works, why not!.. .. .Some have correctly pointed out that the RAAF incident, with the later colour video, showed that the warning system did not function, but then again some say that it did and was not recognised. For my mind a switch that tests the system, similar to the B350, is the go.. .. .Initial and line training go along way to preventing a re-occurence as does this type of discussion here and at work. As in the "210 down in th NT" post, this fourum is a way of presenting both whishes of goodwill and information and ultimatly more informed members, who hopefully may just remember something from here that may stop then or help them to save thier own life.. .. .Except Gaunty of course, because he only posts when all the red is gone.
Best you lay down and rest, Creampuff. You've been pigging out on idiot pills. Again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .You must admit my friends in CASA are amongst the few professionals employed by the Authority. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Have a Happy Easter Creampuff! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 30 March 2002, 03:45: Message edited by: Torres ]</small>
Best to double your anti-volatility medication Bob/Torres/Air Ace.
I hope there are lots of professionals in your authority. However, I think there is only one professional pilot: the test pilot. The rest should be (or are at least are paid to be) professional regulators. Unfortunately, that's a distinction you seem incapable of comprehending.
Happy Holidays to you too!
I hope there are lots of professionals in your authority. However, I think there is only one professional pilot: the test pilot. The rest should be (or are at least are paid to be) professional regulators. Unfortunately, that's a distinction you seem incapable of comprehending.
Happy Holidays to you too!
Don Quixote Impersonator
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So now we come around in a complete circle.
B350 Of course it has audible alarms amongst many many other structures and devices NOT REQUIRED on the B200, you see they live in entirely different Certification worlds.
One; Transport Category for the fare paying public, the other, Non Transport Category for private, business and recreational use.
That the aircraft in question was from the latter category and on a revenue charter with messrs public on board and legally entitled to be, is the real issue surrounding this discussion.
Whether it had or should have this or that as standard is for the manufacturer a direct function of its intended use.
We may add this or that thing to a device to help it towards a higher level of safety but it is only a band aid and we all know what happens to them after a short while.
B350 Of course it has audible alarms amongst many many other structures and devices NOT REQUIRED on the B200, you see they live in entirely different Certification worlds.
One; Transport Category for the fare paying public, the other, Non Transport Category for private, business and recreational use.
That the aircraft in question was from the latter category and on a revenue charter with messrs public on board and legally entitled to be, is the real issue surrounding this discussion.
Whether it had or should have this or that as standard is for the manufacturer a direct function of its intended use.
We may add this or that thing to a device to help it towards a higher level of safety but it is only a band aid and we all know what happens to them after a short while.
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Sorry Creampuff, CASA employs "professional" pilots as regulators and despite the best efforts of many to eliminate the need for "flying" staff, there are still "professional" pilots employed by the authority.
Regards.
Henry
Regards.
Henry
OK Henry: I'll play.
What's your definition of a "professional" pilot?
Is it someone who's presently paid to fly, or is it someone who has been paid to fly at any time in his or her life? Or is it someone who holds a particular pilot qualification, whether or not he or she exercises all of the privileges of that qualification? If so, what is that qualification?
Be a little circumspect before you articulate your answer, lest you fall into the same trap as our volatile colleague Torres/Air Ace.
What's your definition of a "professional" pilot?
Is it someone who's presently paid to fly, or is it someone who has been paid to fly at any time in his or her life? Or is it someone who holds a particular pilot qualification, whether or not he or she exercises all of the privileges of that qualification? If so, what is that qualification?
Be a little circumspect before you articulate your answer, lest you fall into the same trap as our volatile colleague Torres/Air Ace.
