Qantas to Launch Discount Air Carrier
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I hate to say it, but most pilots I know are p***ks. Whats happening now is exactly what happened at Anssett when Kendell got jets. For years no AN pilot gave a rats when we lost routes to the Saabs, but as soon as they got RJs' there was an uproar- "its our flying" etc. I haven't heard too many QF pilots, and I know a lot and am good friends with several, demanding to fly the Bae146, or the Impulse 717. Keg, why didn't the 2300 mainline pilots vent their anger when National Jet, Southern and Impulse undermined the career paths of the QF shorthaul pilots, or dont they count.
Nunc est bibendum
BB, sorry but before my time however I will add a couple of bits and pieces.
The 2300 you speak of include ALL mainline pilots and AIPA lobbied pretty hard to ensure that the future of ALL members was served by mainline pilots crewing the 737-800's. Is this enough 'venting' for you?
We also 'vented' pretty hard when the Impulse deal was done. I'm not on the COM so am not privvy to the in's and out's of any of it but we 'vented' pretty hard then too. So far the future of shorthaul pilots looks pretty rosy with increasing numbers and so on. In fact, hasn't it been said that 'no A list pilot will still be an F/O in 2003'? (Unless they choose not to be of course!)
I would have thought that things were looking pretty good for ALL QF drivers at the moment. The trick is to keep it looking that way and better!
Have a nice day!
[ 11 December 2001: Message edited by: Keg ]
The 2300 you speak of include ALL mainline pilots and AIPA lobbied pretty hard to ensure that the future of ALL members was served by mainline pilots crewing the 737-800's. Is this enough 'venting' for you?
We also 'vented' pretty hard when the Impulse deal was done. I'm not on the COM so am not privvy to the in's and out's of any of it but we 'vented' pretty hard then too. So far the future of shorthaul pilots looks pretty rosy with increasing numbers and so on. In fact, hasn't it been said that 'no A list pilot will still be an F/O in 2003'? (Unless they choose not to be of course!)
I would have thought that things were looking pretty good for ALL QF drivers at the moment. The trick is to keep it looking that way and better!
Have a nice day!
[ 11 December 2001: Message edited by: Keg ]
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Keg, might I suggest that '89 was before your time as well and that maybe you shouldn't comment on it. For info, I know for a fact that it was also before Sly n' Smileys time and now he's just looking for a new job. Would you be so upset if he got a position at Impulse? Sly's got no axe to grind, but you're right, he does have to feed his kids.
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Keg, T'box and others; I am a loss to understand why you feel that pilots in my position are somehow immoral because the management of AA/QF MAY(!!) seek to employ direct from the street rather than via the QF seniority list. The AIPA can be "forewarned" as much as they like, but if your managers want to employ experienced crews from other than your ranks then I doubt that you will be able to do much about it, they are starting a new carrier, after all. The ex-AN pilots who make an excellent choice for the role; we are all experienced, willing and highly motivated towards a decent job. Our gratitude of being offered a new start in our careers would buy a heap of goodwill. For your information, most of us ARE prepared to "start at the bottom" and have expressed this by already applying to QF mainline, CX, EK, Virgin ect ect. I have applied to 17 different airlines and had 2 interviews, but no job offer yet. 
But, I know that somthing will come eventually 
For your information, most of us ARE prepared to "start at the bottom" and have expressed this by already applying to QF mainline, CX, EK, Virgin ect ect. I have applied to 17 different airlines and had 2 interviews, but no job offer yet. But, I know that somthing will come eventually
Nunc est bibendum
Sly, although I responded to your statement, it was not necessarily directed at you per se, more that your comment seemed to be from a similar line of argument that I have read many times before on this forum when used about '89.
Whilst I was not there and by Boeing Bellys assertions, neither were you, the general 'feel' seems to be similar to what I have read on this forum about '89. I wish to make no other comment about '89 other than the lines seemed to be similar.
Following on from that though, I'd be surprised if QF have actually gone looking for anyone to crew the aircraft for Australian yet. As far as I know Qf/Aus are in full and frank discussion with AIPA about crewing the new aircraft and therefore you can see how cagey we may be about people making (unsolicited?)'offers' to crew them on a deal that shut us out before we started.
If after it all falls apart with AIPA and QF/TN opens the floodgates to all others, go your hardest and the best of luck securing a future for yourself and others.
As yet I haven't seen the gates opened and I guess I see any move toward other groups offering to crew those aircraft for less than the conditions negotiated by the AIPA as scab labour- especially when we are in negotiation to do it.
I guess the parrallel would have been if QF drivers had offered to fly the 744 for Ansett for cheaper than you guys were. Not exactly cricket is it!
Hope that clarifys the issue.
BB, you want to take a swipe at me then go ahead if it makes you feel better. As I pointed out above, I make no comment about '89 other than the comments seem similar.
From your post though, it sounds as though those that weren't there aren't allowed an opinion on how things have been discussed on this BB.
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Keg ]
Whilst I was not there and by Boeing Bellys assertions, neither were you, the general 'feel' seems to be similar to what I have read on this forum about '89. I wish to make no other comment about '89 other than the lines seemed to be similar.
Following on from that though, I'd be surprised if QF have actually gone looking for anyone to crew the aircraft for Australian yet. As far as I know Qf/Aus are in full and frank discussion with AIPA about crewing the new aircraft and therefore you can see how cagey we may be about people making (unsolicited?)'offers' to crew them on a deal that shut us out before we started.
If after it all falls apart with AIPA and QF/TN opens the floodgates to all others, go your hardest and the best of luck securing a future for yourself and others.
As yet I haven't seen the gates opened and I guess I see any move toward other groups offering to crew those aircraft for less than the conditions negotiated by the AIPA as scab labour- especially when we are in negotiation to do it.
I guess the parrallel would have been if QF drivers had offered to fly the 744 for Ansett for cheaper than you guys were. Not exactly cricket is it!
Hope that clarifys the issue.
BB, you want to take a swipe at me then go ahead if it makes you feel better. As I pointed out above, I make no comment about '89 other than the comments seem similar.
From your post though, it sounds as though those that weren't there aren't allowed an opinion on how things have been discussed on this BB.
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Keg ]
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Proplever,
glad my posts entertain.Most are just leveled reality checks.
The joker who thought that using QF crews in Australian Airlines would be great public relations etc is delusional,of a different time maybe.I said I didn`t intend to offend but the greatest danger to pilot groups is an over inflated view of themselves and where they stand.History lessons!
The other comments,was it you Keg?about groups undermining conditions for others re:Impulse,VB and now exAN.Well,didn`t that start with QF 2nd officers accepting B scale in the former Australian Airlines?
Domestic captains have told me that the money saved on the B scale was lost in the first year with the threefold increase in go-arounds;not the weather either!
glad my posts entertain.Most are just leveled reality checks.
The joker who thought that using QF crews in Australian Airlines would be great public relations etc is delusional,of a different time maybe.I said I didn`t intend to offend but the greatest danger to pilot groups is an over inflated view of themselves and where they stand.History lessons!
The other comments,was it you Keg?about groups undermining conditions for others re:Impulse,VB and now exAN.Well,didn`t that start with QF 2nd officers accepting B scale in the former Australian Airlines?
Domestic captains have told me that the money saved on the B scale was lost in the first year with the threefold increase in go-arounds;not the weather either!
Nunc est bibendum
OF course BD. How silly of me. I should have known that QF S/Os weren't capable of becoming short haul F/Os. My mistake. Of course thats why the A list guys voted in the B scale- to make up for the increase in go arounds!
QF hasn't until very recently measured go arounds and now just for statistical data about airfields etc. The QAR data prior to that was interesting reading though- on both sides of the 'hauls'.
However, if you want to start going tit for tat over who is the better driver, has the bigger wallet, bigger etc, then we can go all day but that doesn't serve any real purpose except to make you loook like an idiot when you make statements that are flawed at their basis.
And no it wasn't me with the comment about undermining conditions etc. I did bring up about approaching certain parties that may be in negotiatin and attempting to undermine them. A little different to the example you allude to.
QF hasn't until very recently measured go arounds and now just for statistical data about airfields etc. The QAR data prior to that was interesting reading though- on both sides of the 'hauls'.
However, if you want to start going tit for tat over who is the better driver, has the bigger wallet, bigger etc, then we can go all day but that doesn't serve any real purpose except to make you loook like an idiot when you make statements that are flawed at their basis.
And no it wasn't me with the comment about undermining conditions etc. I did bring up about approaching certain parties that may be in negotiatin and attempting to undermine them. A little different to the example you allude to.
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Keg, let me see if I understand your last post. Are you saying that if AIPA decide on a price to crew a new Australian airline such as Impulse, but in this case Australian Airlines, and then another group are willing to crew it at a cheaper rate, that they are scabs? That's ridiculous!
Comparing it to QF pilots crewing AN 747s is also ridiculous. The currently unemployed ex AN 767 pilots are not suggesting that they undercut rates to fly Qantas 767s. If they want to fly QF 767s they can apply, and if accepted ,join the fleet as Second Officers. What we are talking about here is an entirely new, albeit fully owned, subsidary. I fail to see the difference between Australian Airlines and Impulse.
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Boeing Belly ]
Comparing it to QF pilots crewing AN 747s is also ridiculous. The currently unemployed ex AN 767 pilots are not suggesting that they undercut rates to fly Qantas 767s. If they want to fly QF 767s they can apply, and if accepted ,join the fleet as Second Officers. What we are talking about here is an entirely new, albeit fully owned, subsidary. I fail to see the difference between Australian Airlines and Impulse.
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Boeing Belly ]
Nunc est bibendum
The difference is BB is that AIPA are already in discussions with the company about it.
How about another example. QF crews offering to crew TESNA aircraft etc
How about another example. QF crews offering to crew TESNA aircraft etc
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So what if AIPA are in discussions, if you extend your house you normally get more than one quote.
If you added the expense of endorsing and line training onto Airbus aircraft, I think you'll find that you could'nt do it as cheaply as the current crew.
If you added the expense of endorsing and line training onto Airbus aircraft, I think you'll find that you could'nt do it as cheaply as the current crew.
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Keg, lets make one thing clear, I'm not having a go at you, my best mate flys' for QF LongHaul on the 767 and I hope he does very well out of Australian Airlines. All I'm saying is don't uderestimate Dixon. He's shown what he's capable of doing ie Impulse etc and AIPA just stood back and watched it happen. I cannot see him overlooking guys who have thousands upon thousands of hours on 767s who are willing to do the job under different conditions. I dont care if I'm right or wrong, if you do well out of it, good luck to you, if ex AN guys get a go, good luck to them as well. My bet is if it doesn't directly affect the 400 guys, AIPA wont lose sleep over it.
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Sad to see how the profession, career and hardfought for lifestyle of pilots in Australia and worldwide has entered such an ever steepening downward spiral.
And who has caused it? Yes PILOTS!
It remains the shortsighted individual agendas of pilots these days that will destroy any decent future for themelves and others, whether they or we choose to believe it or not.
We really need to get some smart people making some smart decisions with future joint objectives and strategies in place for professional pilots and we need to collectively support them and each other.
If we don't do something soon then we only have ourselves to blame for what lies ahead in the very near future. Excuses are always easy but won't help one iota.
"Band of Brothers", it is the ONLY hope we have!!!
Keep the blue side up.
And who has caused it? Yes PILOTS!
It remains the shortsighted individual agendas of pilots these days that will destroy any decent future for themelves and others, whether they or we choose to believe it or not.
We really need to get some smart people making some smart decisions with future joint objectives and strategies in place for professional pilots and we need to collectively support them and each other.
If we don't do something soon then we only have ourselves to blame for what lies ahead in the very near future. Excuses are always easy but won't help one iota.
"Band of Brothers", it is the ONLY hope we have!!!
Keep the blue side up.
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Wake up!
The price of everything in aviation is down. What you need to understand is that conditions are set by supply and demand. Plenty of jet fuel, not much demand, price plummet. Plenty of pilots looking for work, not much demand, wage plummet.
Qantas would love to negotiate a wage cut for its existing staff, but knows the unions would shut it down rather than accept this. So they have started a new airline to do the job.
The Golden Rule
He who has the gold rules!
The price of everything in aviation is down. What you need to understand is that conditions are set by supply and demand. Plenty of jet fuel, not much demand, price plummet. Plenty of pilots looking for work, not much demand, wage plummet.
Qantas would love to negotiate a wage cut for its existing staff, but knows the unions would shut it down rather than accept this. So they have started a new airline to do the job.
The Golden Rule
He who has the gold rules!
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Keg and the other squeiling girls,
You must remember that people's opinions on pprune are very much directly related to thier current circumstances.
For example, when Impulse were being flushed down the toilet, Impulse workers (OG3 ect) were telling us all how they would soon get another 30 717s and 20 odd 757s (sommeone even mentioned space ships??). Of course, if they were Qantas crew, for example, their forcasts for Impulse would have been substancially less-rosy. We are all very bias towards our current circumstances and there is no denying that.
What I am trying to say is this. Boeing belly is an Ansett pilot, probabaly on the 767. You Keg, are a Qantas pilot on the 767. If your situations were reversed you would be arguing the direct opposites and don't say you wouldn't be. So why don't you all go and have a cup of tea and wait and see what happens. You are giving yourselves hernias over utter speculation.
Good luck to you all and Merry Xmas.
You must remember that people's opinions on pprune are very much directly related to thier current circumstances.
For example, when Impulse were being flushed down the toilet, Impulse workers (OG3 ect) were telling us all how they would soon get another 30 717s and 20 odd 757s (sommeone even mentioned space ships??). Of course, if they were Qantas crew, for example, their forcasts for Impulse would have been substancially less-rosy. We are all very bias towards our current circumstances and there is no denying that.
What I am trying to say is this. Boeing belly is an Ansett pilot, probabaly on the 767. You Keg, are a Qantas pilot on the 767. If your situations were reversed you would be arguing the direct opposites and don't say you wouldn't be. So why don't you all go and have a cup of tea and wait and see what happens. You are giving yourselves hernias over utter speculation.
Good luck to you all and Merry Xmas.
