4/5/6 place charter ship - Any suggestions ?
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: NSW, AUSTRALIA
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4/5/6 place charter ship - Any suggestions ?
G'day People,
I am currently looking at economic reality of operating a 4-6ish place charter aircraft and would appriecate any suggestions regarding the most suitable type.
I have checked a few reference books but would like some practical 'in service' figures/opinions (most range figures I have are for flight at LRC @ Flight levels !)
The ideal machine would be able to carry Pilot + 4 or 5 pax, 60 odd Kg bags, 500-600 odd nautical miles. And of course its got to do it relatively comfortably and not cost the earth to operate !
Does this machine exist ?. Have currently been thinking B58/PA31 - What are these acft like with 5/6 bums on board ??
Do i need my head read ??
Any suggestions would be most appriecated!
Thanks.
I am currently looking at economic reality of operating a 4-6ish place charter aircraft and would appriecate any suggestions regarding the most suitable type.
I have checked a few reference books but would like some practical 'in service' figures/opinions (most range figures I have are for flight at LRC @ Flight levels !)
The ideal machine would be able to carry Pilot + 4 or 5 pax, 60 odd Kg bags, 500-600 odd nautical miles. And of course its got to do it relatively comfortably and not cost the earth to operate !
Does this machine exist ?. Have currently been thinking B58/PA31 - What are these acft like with 5/6 bums on board ??
Do i need my head read ??
Any suggestions would be most appriecated!
Thanks.
On the low end, how about a PN68 Pertenavia. Fixed gear and normally aspirated engines allow for lowish running costs, while it has a pretty good load carrying ability. Bit slow though.
MTOW : 1960 kg (some 1990 kg). .Basic: 1310 kg (Typical)
Gives 650 kg useful load = pilot + 4 pax + 60 kg bags + 280 litres fuel.
280 litres will get you about 400 nm.
MTOW : 1960 kg (some 1990 kg). .Basic: 1310 kg (Typical)
Gives 650 kg useful load = pilot + 4 pax + 60 kg bags + 280 litres fuel.
280 litres will get you about 400 nm.
From my experience on the Baron, a 600nm trip with 4-5 bums and baggage, forget it. Unless they're extremely light, which you can't count on. Go for a larger aircraft so you've got some buffers (extra fuel requirements, above average size pax etc)
Maybe a Navajo or Aero Commander, but I have no experience with these types.
Maybe a Navajo or Aero Commander, but I have no experience with these types.
Join Date: Sep 1999
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500 – 600 nautical miles in a light piston engine twin – get real. This is the domain of fan-jets. If you propose to travel back and forth over such distances on a regular basis you need to think about cruising at speed, above the weather, in a low noise environment with toilet and galley.
A bottom end fan-jet will convert a nine-hour round trip Partenavia ordeal into a three and a half hour cake-walk, provide an aisle for leg stretching and an environment about twenty degrees cooler.
Look at the Cessna Citation CJ-1 for starters. Forget the tired old hand-me-downs, look at new aircraft with factory warranties for low operating costs. On DOC’s the CJ-1 will kill a Partenavia on cost-per mile.
Most passengers who were stupid enough to reach destination in an old thumper over those distances would be looking at returning on the airlines and demand a refund!
No wonder the industry is ‘stuffed’ in this country!. .
A bottom end fan-jet will convert a nine-hour round trip Partenavia ordeal into a three and a half hour cake-walk, provide an aisle for leg stretching and an environment about twenty degrees cooler.
Look at the Cessna Citation CJ-1 for starters. Forget the tired old hand-me-downs, look at new aircraft with factory warranties for low operating costs. On DOC’s the CJ-1 will kill a Partenavia on cost-per mile.
Most passengers who were stupid enough to reach destination in an old thumper over those distances would be looking at returning on the airlines and demand a refund!
No wonder the industry is ‘stuffed’ in this country!. .
TASing at 165Kts, a mid weight Shrike with a 90kg pilot will give the following passenger payloads over a 600 nm segment:
VFR 696 kgs. .IFR 582 kgs.
<img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Good luck trying to find one though!
VFR 696 kgs. .IFR 582 kgs.
<img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Good luck trying to find one though!
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Are you thinking of purchase or just promising an owner the earth?
I think if I were purchasing I would be very careful about AD requirements on all and everything and take a close look at what will be allowed as single pilot ops into the foreseeable future.
Try ringing CASA about Citation and Lear requirements NOW and PROPOSED.
I think if I were purchasing I would be very careful about AD requirements on all and everything and take a close look at what will be allowed as single pilot ops into the foreseeable future.
Try ringing CASA about Citation and Lear requirements NOW and PROPOSED.
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slow down! . .how did we go so fast from a light twin to a Lear 23?
Tas661 - what are your actual operating requirements? I see you are from NSW, do you need to fly over the ranges IFR? what is your pax demografic? etc. Could a high performance single suit you any thing from a C210 up sounds like it could fit the bill. You can also get approval for IFR ops in Caravans etc
Just an idea to help reduce the bottom line .... $
VneII
PS sweet pics of the Lear 23
Tas661 - what are your actual operating requirements? I see you are from NSW, do you need to fly over the ranges IFR? what is your pax demografic? etc. Could a high performance single suit you any thing from a C210 up sounds like it could fit the bill. You can also get approval for IFR ops in Caravans etc
Just an idea to help reduce the bottom line .... $
VneII
PS sweet pics of the Lear 23
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TAS661, how much money do you have to spend? If you are independently wealthy, then follow dragchute's good advice and get a new turbofan aircraft with factory training, warranty and support. It will save you a lot of headaches!
If you are on a budget there are two tried and proven types which satisfy your payload/range criteria.
For under a half million dollars you can't go past the PA31 Navajo Chieftain. It is slightly faster and an all around better load carrier than a Cessna 402A,B, or C.
For three quarters to a million dollars, you should look seriously at the Cessna Conquest II. This aircraft will carry the same load as a Beech Super Kingair. It is cheaper to buy, has lower DOC's and has a better range and turn of speed than the KingAir.
If you want to know about Conquest II's, talk to Bob Douglas of Douglas aircraft sales. He sold them for many years through Rossair in Adelaide. Last I heard he had relocated to the Gold Coast. Look in Trade-A-Plane for his advertising and contact details.
The Oracle!!
If you are on a budget there are two tried and proven types which satisfy your payload/range criteria.
For under a half million dollars you can't go past the PA31 Navajo Chieftain. It is slightly faster and an all around better load carrier than a Cessna 402A,B, or C.
For three quarters to a million dollars, you should look seriously at the Cessna Conquest II. This aircraft will carry the same load as a Beech Super Kingair. It is cheaper to buy, has lower DOC's and has a better range and turn of speed than the KingAir.
If you want to know about Conquest II's, talk to Bob Douglas of Douglas aircraft sales. He sold them for many years through Rossair in Adelaide. Last I heard he had relocated to the Gold Coast. Look in Trade-A-Plane for his advertising and contact details.
The Oracle!!
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Nothing can beat the Shrike ( Aero Commander 500S or AC50 )in the piston engine fleet with 6 pax, full fuel and their baggage, typical empty weight around 2200 Kgs, gross IFR 3243, VFR 3357 Kgs, 590 litres fuel (420 kgs), 165 knots TAS, roomy, quiet (relatively) and comfortable,cabin class, good short field but most are already out working hard. GAM, Essendon own 20+ of them and there are a few others out there, good luck if you can get someone to part with one.
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If your keen to go dragchute and Lear 23's way then don't stuff around. Go the B744 freighter. 8 business class seats, 2 bed rooms and a kitchen. Plenty of room for all that crap charter pax like to spring on you at the last minute on the lower deck, 480kt cruise and enough range to cater for the odd charter out of Sydney to say Las Vagas. If cost is a problem then have a look at a nice lite R modal Cessna 310. Flys slightly faster and carries a touch more wieght than the Barron for the same money, 600nm with 5 pax might be just a little beyond it though.
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Depending on what sorta money you want to throw around a PC-12 would be a winner if you could talk them into a single. (relatively fast, up to FL300, comfortable, operating costs are pretty good) . . Failing that then probably B200 would be a winner over that sort of distance. But again it all depends on how much $$$$ there is around. If it's going to be a contracted job with xx amount of hours per month then must go turbine of some description. Cheyenne 2 would be another option but not real sure on operating costs etc
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TAS 661. .For the range you are looking for 500-600 NM, I'd guess you would need an 8-9 seat aircraft. A B58 is a luverly ship to fly, but you won't get the range you want, without being a 2 pax aircraft. I have never operated a shrike, but I know those that have, and they rave about them. If you could find one, it could probably do what you want. Failing that, you are in PA31/C402 territory.
Not a C402B though: - 2858MTOW, 1970ish BEW, fuel at 140lt/100kg/hr = ~ 650kgs over 154 miles....VFR reserves! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Great in Africa with pygmies no doubt.
402C is a wee bit better.
Great in Africa with pygmies no doubt.
402C is a wee bit better.
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No one has mentioned the Metro series.. If you can't make money outta one of these then yo shouldn't be in the game. With 5-8 pax and bags a MII would be nice with every second seat removed. Find a good one cheap (good luck. Otherwise might be few M3 and M23's up for grabs cheap soon. If you are the pilot, then a Kingair is good, but if you are the nimber cruncher, then a metro is way better. Piston wise can't go past the C404. Just don't put an idiot in the drivers seat and it'll do 8 hrs flying at 170kts and still uplift over 500kg.
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Someone mentioned Conquest II around here. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
It's the perfect 4/5/6 place charter ship, it will go anywhere the C310/Baron will for the same price, AND THEN, you can send it off with 10 pax over the same distance if you need to, OR 4/5/6 towards 1000nm and arrive in the circuit very shortly before or after the local regional turboprop or jet, OR, a couple of pax towards 1800nm in a bit over 6 hours. . .Who needs a Citation, which is the main reason they stopped production, they were just too damn good.
All at FL330 and 290KTAS. . .At about the same capital costs and the same operating cost per mile as a really good piston.
The pax just love em.
And all the old wives tales you here about the Garrett are just that, they are in fact, the secret of the types success.
Give me old mate Bobby Douglas a call, (he's a straight shooter and he knows nearly as much as I do about them) <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> and he'll get you going. . .I believe that there was quite a queue for the ones that the RFDS have disposed of.
'20 series Lears, I dont think so.
[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: gaunty ]</p>
It's the perfect 4/5/6 place charter ship, it will go anywhere the C310/Baron will for the same price, AND THEN, you can send it off with 10 pax over the same distance if you need to, OR 4/5/6 towards 1000nm and arrive in the circuit very shortly before or after the local regional turboprop or jet, OR, a couple of pax towards 1800nm in a bit over 6 hours. . .Who needs a Citation, which is the main reason they stopped production, they were just too damn good.
All at FL330 and 290KTAS. . .At about the same capital costs and the same operating cost per mile as a really good piston.
The pax just love em.
And all the old wives tales you here about the Garrett are just that, they are in fact, the secret of the types success.
Give me old mate Bobby Douglas a call, (he's a straight shooter and he knows nearly as much as I do about them) <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
and he'll get you going. . .I believe that there was quite a queue for the ones that the RFDS have disposed of.'20 series Lears, I dont think so.
[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: gaunty ]</p>