Beach patrol Perth
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Southern China
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Ok, time for my two cents worth....
But first a disclaimer, I have been out of Perth for a 3 years now and I don't know what has happened to the 'Beach Patrol' that I once flew for two consecutive years.
CFI: You refer to it being a 'contract'. A contract it is not. The government made a grant. Please note the difference. It is like the money that goes from the govt to the RFDS. It is not payment for services rendered (ie for a contract) but rather a grant to support a community service provided. It seems you are looking at it from a purely commercial perspective when it is not a commercial venture.
You own/operate a flying school. Your motives are commercially driven. ECU has the ability to claim a number of things from the provision of this patrol. Education of students, exposure to a quasi-commercial operation, provision of a community service etc etc.
I know your passion for your job and your company. Thus I picture this reply angering you
But...I think we must draw a distinction between the two.
But first a disclaimer, I have been out of Perth for a 3 years now and I don't know what has happened to the 'Beach Patrol' that I once flew for two consecutive years.
CFI: You refer to it being a 'contract'. A contract it is not. The government made a grant. Please note the difference. It is like the money that goes from the govt to the RFDS. It is not payment for services rendered (ie for a contract) but rather a grant to support a community service provided. It seems you are looking at it from a purely commercial perspective when it is not a commercial venture.
You own/operate a flying school. Your motives are commercially driven. ECU has the ability to claim a number of things from the provision of this patrol. Education of students, exposure to a quasi-commercial operation, provision of a community service etc etc.
I know your passion for your job and your company. Thus I picture this reply angering you
But...I think we must draw a distinction between the two.
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Terrain, your post doesn't anger me at all, though I can't find the word "contract" in any of my posts. My motives are not purely commercial in this case, my AOC and aircraft aren't geared up for this sort of work, but there are others, professional operators who make a living out of flying, and who were able to do this work AND pay their pilots to do it, who missed out on the grant.
You used the example of the RFDS providing a community service helped by government grants. Yet nobody expects the RFDS pilots to do it for nothing. Just because it is a community service, doesn't mean it has to be voluntary!
These next generation of pilots are being given a message that it's OK to work for nothing, setting back years the work that many have done to try and ensure that pilots with low experience get paid the award. Just because these ECU students are fresh out of uni doesn't make them any less entitled to a day's pay. If there really isn't enough in the grant to pay them, which there should be if the hourly rate for does work out at about $200, then maybe a word to our Labour premier might bump it up to levels where they can get paid.
You used the example of the RFDS providing a community service helped by government grants. Yet nobody expects the RFDS pilots to do it for nothing. Just because it is a community service, doesn't mean it has to be voluntary!
These next generation of pilots are being given a message that it's OK to work for nothing, setting back years the work that many have done to try and ensure that pilots with low experience get paid the award. Just because these ECU students are fresh out of uni doesn't make them any less entitled to a day's pay. If there really isn't enough in the grant to pay them, which there should be if the hourly rate for does work out at about $200, then maybe a word to our Labour premier might bump it up to levels where they can get paid.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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If the Shark Patrol is a community service why then are Fisheries and Polcie doing the on water side of things. I bet they are not doing the patrols on their days off or for free.
This is just another way of ensuring that the hobby of flying is kept as that and anyone who tries to make a living from it will always have to fight the system to gain some form of recognition.
It would be interseting to see how the aircraft is insured in respect to the pilots as they are not paying for the flight themselves it cant be considered a private operation and workers compensation insurance is only valid if you are paid?
As to the EMS helicopter didn't we have one in Perth till Westpac sponsored the government?
This is just another way of ensuring that the hobby of flying is kept as that and anyone who tries to make a living from it will always have to fight the system to gain some form of recognition.
It would be interseting to see how the aircraft is insured in respect to the pilots as they are not paying for the flight themselves it cant be considered a private operation and workers compensation insurance is only valid if you are paid?
As to the EMS helicopter didn't we have one in Perth till Westpac sponsored the government?
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nulla
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So whats the discussion here?
Where is the finance going or should pilots be getting paid for it? I think we're losing track on this a little.
Start a new thread for the political sledging.
As I indicated before the insurance situ would be interesting. I wonder, do they use CPL holders on every flight. PPL holders are the ones who are really scrounging for hours. i.e. The ones on the 200hr syllabus.
This could be the case if it is affiliated to a flying school.
Where is the finance going or should pilots be getting paid for it? I think we're losing track on this a little.
Start a new thread for the political sledging.
As I indicated before the insurance situ would be interesting. I wonder, do they use CPL holders on every flight. PPL holders are the ones who are really scrounging for hours. i.e. The ones on the 200hr syllabus.
This could be the case if it is affiliated to a flying school.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Capt L don't get me wrong, I'm all for everyone getting paid but if the funding for this operation isn't facilitating a profit then what are they going to get paid with?
Maybe they could request more funding or sponsorship like the professional SAR units do but even then it is only the full time SAR pilots that get paid, not the casual beach patrolers.
It seems to me that the only option is for CASA or preferably the GOV to step in with yet another law re remuneration for CPL holders or above. If they can say a PPL can't then why can't they say a CPL must get paid.
Somebody will always step in and undercut the other for the business, the problem is it's always the pilots then the aircraft that suffer.
Maybe they could request more funding or sponsorship like the professional SAR units do but even then it is only the full time SAR pilots that get paid, not the casual beach patrolers.
It seems to me that the only option is for CASA or preferably the GOV to step in with yet another law re remuneration for CPL holders or above. If they can say a PPL can't then why can't they say a CPL must get paid.
Somebody will always step in and undercut the other for the business, the problem is it's always the pilots then the aircraft that suffer.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Gee CFI, what about the Scouts and the AIRTC, para ops, glider towing etc.
If you are going to have a whinge, well good luck to you. But how about covering the whole subject, not just have ago at one operator who you feel is getting something that you should.
If you are going to have a whinge, well good luck to you. But how about covering the whole subject, not just have ago at one operator who you feel is getting something that you should.
AAMRAM,
I think your comment was a little uncalled for but quite typical of your penchant for having a cheap shot at CFI at the first opportunity.
I think you should again read CFI's previous post. In particular take note of:
"My motives are not purely commercial in this case, my AOC and aircraft aren't geared up for this sort of work, but there are others, professional operators who make a living out of flying, and who were able to do this work AND pay their pilots to do it"
In fact I cannot see where anywhere that CFI has "had a go" at any operator.
[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: YPJT ]
I think your comment was a little uncalled for but quite typical of your penchant for having a cheap shot at CFI at the first opportunity.
I think you should again read CFI's previous post. In particular take note of:
"My motives are not purely commercial in this case, my AOC and aircraft aren't geared up for this sort of work, but there are others, professional operators who make a living out of flying, and who were able to do this work AND pay their pilots to do it"
In fact I cannot see where anywhere that CFI has "had a go" at any operator.
[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: YPJT ]
Join Date: Aug 1999
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'Notwithstanding' previous discussions, I fully agree with CFI re the problem of pilots UNDERbidding themselves out of a descent days pay. (Sorry about the 'N' word back there btw, but CASA has drummed it into my head) :P
Aviation, like a few other professions, will always find its pilots underpaid in a large proportion of the workforce. While there are pilots who love flying, who have the passion and desire to fly, they will always work for less than they are worth in order to continue/strive for their dream.
There are operators who actually CHARGE pilots to fly their aeroplanes (admittedly, this seems to be more prevalent with the bank run jobs over east) but there are those in WA that come pretty close. Pilots will suffer huge losses to get ahead in this game and as long as they accept poor conditions, it will continue. All of us who work at below 'market value' are pricing everyone out of 'real' work.
Tell me...how many line pilots or line instructors do you know in GA that don't have a second job? Not that many. sIGh.
Please forgive any spelling errors etc but have had far too much red to be at the computer. Nite all.
Aviation, like a few other professions, will always find its pilots underpaid in a large proportion of the workforce. While there are pilots who love flying, who have the passion and desire to fly, they will always work for less than they are worth in order to continue/strive for their dream.
There are operators who actually CHARGE pilots to fly their aeroplanes (admittedly, this seems to be more prevalent with the bank run jobs over east) but there are those in WA that come pretty close. Pilots will suffer huge losses to get ahead in this game and as long as they accept poor conditions, it will continue. All of us who work at below 'market value' are pricing everyone out of 'real' work.
Tell me...how many line pilots or line instructors do you know in GA that don't have a second job? Not that many. sIGh.
Please forgive any spelling errors etc but have had far too much red to be at the computer. Nite all.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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"congratulations you are now a commercial pilot....now would you like to come and work for us for nothing"
Amazing isn't it, the ink isn't even dry on their licences and they are already getting shafted.
Amazing isn't it, the ink isn't even dry on their licences and they are already getting shafted.
