It's Happening - Aussie Troops to fight Terrorism
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It's Happening - Aussie Troops to fight Terrorism
From abc.net.au
Howard prepares nation for casualties
Australia will send 1,550 military personnel including 150 crack SAS troops to join the US-led campaign against terrorism in mid-November.
Prime Minister John Howard has announced a much larger commitment than originally offered, saying some could leave within a week or two, but the exact departure date would be confirmed soon.
He also warned that the Special Air Services (SAS) commandos could expect to be in the thick of battle, and possibly in hand-to-hand combat, with Afghanistan's Taliban fighters.
His announcement followed a call from US President George W Bush overnight.
Australia's commitment to the campaign had also been upgraded to include four F/A-18 jet strike fighters and two long-range P3 Orion reconnaissance aircraft on top of the two 707 refuelling aircraft originally pledged.
Three frigates and an amphibious command ship would also be sent to join a multinational interception force.
Australian troops will join the US-led multinational force now building as air strikes which started on October 7 continue against Afghanistan in retaliation for the September 11 terrorist onslaught in the United States.
Apart from US and British special forces believed to be involved in reconnaissance operations, ground forces have not yet been sent into the country.
Opposition leader Kim Beazley says the sailors, soldiers and air force personnel have the support of all Australians.
Mr Beazley says he has been briefed on the details of the military campaign and the Opposition fully supports Australia's involvement.
"This is a bipartisan commitment to a most important operation and a most significant effort by an allied coalition that is very broadly-based," he said.
Risk
Mr Howard admitted the risk of casualties was high and warned the campaign would be far more dangerous than the Australian-led UN military operation in East Timor two years ago.
"Whenever you go into battle there is always the risk of casualties," he said.
"It is a very dangerous operation, particularly any operation involving special forces on the ground.
"It will not be an easy operation, they just won't be involved in search and rescue, they will be in the thick of it," he said.
"It will be quite dangerous, unprecedented for many of our people.
"I think the danger, particularly for those who might go on ground, will be very high, much higher than in East Timor."
Mr Howard said there was nothing token about the contribution, adding: "This is a very significant, important contribution being made by Australia and it should be seen as much by the Australian people."
Australian originally committed around 1,000 military personnel, including the SAS troops, to the campaign when the deployment was announced by Howard on October 4.
Bush grateful
He said during his conversation with President Bush, they had both reflected "rather sombrely" on just how much the world had changed.
Bush, he said, was "very grateful" for Australia's commitment and indebted to Australia because of the spontaneity of its response and willingness to join the fight against terrorism.
Opposition Labor leader Kim Beazley said Labor stood "shoulder to shoulder" with the US President and British Prime Minister Tony Blair in fighting the scourge of terrorism.
"This is an appropriate commitment of Australian forces and it is a significant one," he said.
Democrats
The Democrats leader, Natasha Stott Despoja, says no more troops should be committed without Parliament debating the move.
"I urge that the Parliament be reconvened at the first opportunity after the election," she said.
"Our advice is that it could occur as early a fortnight after the election is over.
"At this moment ladies and gentlemen the Canadian Parliament at this very moment are debating their commitment of troops, I'm sorry that we're not doing the same."
Greens
Greens Senator Bob Brown has criticised John Howard's military commitment to the United States-led fight against terrorism, saying conscription will be next on the Prime Minister's list.
Mr Brown says Australia's commitment should be under the leadership of the United Nations and the objective should be to bring the terrorists to justice in a world criminal court.
He says Australians need to be warned that Mr Howard will put conscription on the agenda if he wins government for another term.
"Prime Minister Howard has voted for conscription consistently in the 60s and 70s," he said.
"It will be a matter for his consideration and if this hostility worsens he will be bringing in conscription in the next period of government."
Expert opinion
A strategic studies expert is concerned that Australia may have over-committed itself, given the potential for trouble in Indonesia, and the nation's existing regional responsibilities.
Dr John Bruni, from the University of Adelaide, says Australia's relatively small armed forces are already fulfilling ongoing security commitments to East Timor, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands and Bougainville.
He says Australia's major allies are going to be too preoccupied in Afghanistan to be of much assistance if there is trouble in the region.
"If there is going to be any kind of strategic spillover, it is going to affect even moderate Muslim countries like Indonesia, and if it happens to affect Indonesia in a negative sense, what can we do to defend our interests in Papua New Guinea and East Timor... we have got forces on the ground in East Timor currently as part of an UN effort there," he said.
What does everyone think? I am fully behind them and I hope for the safe return of all those involved.
TL
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: Transition Layer ]
Howard prepares nation for casualties
Australia will send 1,550 military personnel including 150 crack SAS troops to join the US-led campaign against terrorism in mid-November.
Prime Minister John Howard has announced a much larger commitment than originally offered, saying some could leave within a week or two, but the exact departure date would be confirmed soon.
He also warned that the Special Air Services (SAS) commandos could expect to be in the thick of battle, and possibly in hand-to-hand combat, with Afghanistan's Taliban fighters.
His announcement followed a call from US President George W Bush overnight.
Australia's commitment to the campaign had also been upgraded to include four F/A-18 jet strike fighters and two long-range P3 Orion reconnaissance aircraft on top of the two 707 refuelling aircraft originally pledged.
Three frigates and an amphibious command ship would also be sent to join a multinational interception force.
Australian troops will join the US-led multinational force now building as air strikes which started on October 7 continue against Afghanistan in retaliation for the September 11 terrorist onslaught in the United States.
Apart from US and British special forces believed to be involved in reconnaissance operations, ground forces have not yet been sent into the country.
Opposition leader Kim Beazley says the sailors, soldiers and air force personnel have the support of all Australians.
Mr Beazley says he has been briefed on the details of the military campaign and the Opposition fully supports Australia's involvement.
"This is a bipartisan commitment to a most important operation and a most significant effort by an allied coalition that is very broadly-based," he said.
Risk
Mr Howard admitted the risk of casualties was high and warned the campaign would be far more dangerous than the Australian-led UN military operation in East Timor two years ago.
"Whenever you go into battle there is always the risk of casualties," he said.
"It is a very dangerous operation, particularly any operation involving special forces on the ground.
"It will not be an easy operation, they just won't be involved in search and rescue, they will be in the thick of it," he said.
"It will be quite dangerous, unprecedented for many of our people.
"I think the danger, particularly for those who might go on ground, will be very high, much higher than in East Timor."
Mr Howard said there was nothing token about the contribution, adding: "This is a very significant, important contribution being made by Australia and it should be seen as much by the Australian people."
Australian originally committed around 1,000 military personnel, including the SAS troops, to the campaign when the deployment was announced by Howard on October 4.
Bush grateful
He said during his conversation with President Bush, they had both reflected "rather sombrely" on just how much the world had changed.
Bush, he said, was "very grateful" for Australia's commitment and indebted to Australia because of the spontaneity of its response and willingness to join the fight against terrorism.
Opposition Labor leader Kim Beazley said Labor stood "shoulder to shoulder" with the US President and British Prime Minister Tony Blair in fighting the scourge of terrorism.
"This is an appropriate commitment of Australian forces and it is a significant one," he said.
Democrats
The Democrats leader, Natasha Stott Despoja, says no more troops should be committed without Parliament debating the move.
"I urge that the Parliament be reconvened at the first opportunity after the election," she said.
"Our advice is that it could occur as early a fortnight after the election is over.
"At this moment ladies and gentlemen the Canadian Parliament at this very moment are debating their commitment of troops, I'm sorry that we're not doing the same."
Greens
Greens Senator Bob Brown has criticised John Howard's military commitment to the United States-led fight against terrorism, saying conscription will be next on the Prime Minister's list.
Mr Brown says Australia's commitment should be under the leadership of the United Nations and the objective should be to bring the terrorists to justice in a world criminal court.
He says Australians need to be warned that Mr Howard will put conscription on the agenda if he wins government for another term.
"Prime Minister Howard has voted for conscription consistently in the 60s and 70s," he said.
"It will be a matter for his consideration and if this hostility worsens he will be bringing in conscription in the next period of government."
Expert opinion
A strategic studies expert is concerned that Australia may have over-committed itself, given the potential for trouble in Indonesia, and the nation's existing regional responsibilities.
Dr John Bruni, from the University of Adelaide, says Australia's relatively small armed forces are already fulfilling ongoing security commitments to East Timor, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands and Bougainville.
He says Australia's major allies are going to be too preoccupied in Afghanistan to be of much assistance if there is trouble in the region.
"If there is going to be any kind of strategic spillover, it is going to affect even moderate Muslim countries like Indonesia, and if it happens to affect Indonesia in a negative sense, what can we do to defend our interests in Papua New Guinea and East Timor... we have got forces on the ground in East Timor currently as part of an UN effort there," he said.
What does everyone think? I am fully behind them and I hope for the safe return of all those involved.
TL
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: Transition Layer ]
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TL, same here dude - right behind this one.
However, it is unfortunately a common trait to see others in politics, who perhaps are yet to even write a cognitive and applicable policy, grabbing every opportunity to get their face in front of a camera lens or their name in print, no matter how the country feels at a grassroots voter level.
I'm yet to be proven wrong, but how much longer are we going to have to put up with leaders that simply wont do the job they are voted in for? Look at the regional airline industry, and tell me that politics aren't 90% of the downfall of the industry.
Whoops, we aren't allowed to talk of the "p" word here so I'll desist.
Godspeed, boys and girls, come back alive please.
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: 429 CJ ]
However, it is unfortunately a common trait to see others in politics, who perhaps are yet to even write a cognitive and applicable policy, grabbing every opportunity to get their face in front of a camera lens or their name in print, no matter how the country feels at a grassroots voter level.
I'm yet to be proven wrong, but how much longer are we going to have to put up with leaders that simply wont do the job they are voted in for? Look at the regional airline industry, and tell me that politics aren't 90% of the downfall of the industry.
Whoops, we aren't allowed to talk of the "p" word here so I'll desist.
Godspeed, boys and girls, come back alive please.
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: 429 CJ ]
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Good Luck to our young men and women.
God and their superb training will see them through.
All the bleeding heart bleaters and chest beaters, aren't worth the air they breath in this one.
Whats to debate Natasha?
If we have to conscript, so what, it would break my heart because my son would be in it, but he like I recognises that sometimes you have to say this far and no further. The Browns of this world are irrelevant when the chips are down.
I'm going to scream if I hear one more academic pontificating about what he would do and I promise I will choke the one who was deriding and belittling our ADF on ABC radio today.
Let's deal with one threat at a time.
If we do have to take on the Indons then the Singaporeans had better be there alongside us or they can take their Air Force back home and stay there.
God and their superb training will see them through.
All the bleeding heart bleaters and chest beaters, aren't worth the air they breath in this one.
Whats to debate Natasha?
If we have to conscript, so what, it would break my heart because my son would be in it, but he like I recognises that sometimes you have to say this far and no further. The Browns of this world are irrelevant when the chips are down.
I'm going to scream if I hear one more academic pontificating about what he would do and I promise I will choke the one who was deriding and belittling our ADF on ABC radio today.
Let's deal with one threat at a time.
If we do have to take on the Indons then the Singaporeans had better be there alongside us or they can take their Air Force back home and stay there.
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Gaunty
conscription,you must be crazy,that`s a terrible legacy from yesteryear.Don`t be so quick to send people off to war who have not volunteered,when the military objectives are a little clouded and through any two dimensional nationalistic fervour.Conscription is evil and unneccessary.How many Liberal politicians` children were conscripted during Vietnam?
If society & the media gave our soldiers,sailors & airmen the respect & recognition they deserve a military career would me more aspired to;I forgot,improve conditions aswell.
Men & women of the ADF,my thoughts are with you,I`m proud of your world renowned abilities and professionalism.Good luck & godspeed.
Finally,I warm in the knowledge that these men & women will return to a society that will provide and care for their needs for evermore.The shameful treatment of previous veterans will never be repeated.
conscription,you must be crazy,that`s a terrible legacy from yesteryear.Don`t be so quick to send people off to war who have not volunteered,when the military objectives are a little clouded and through any two dimensional nationalistic fervour.Conscription is evil and unneccessary.How many Liberal politicians` children were conscripted during Vietnam?
If society & the media gave our soldiers,sailors & airmen the respect & recognition they deserve a military career would me more aspired to;I forgot,improve conditions aswell.
Men & women of the ADF,my thoughts are with you,I`m proud of your world renowned abilities and professionalism.Good luck & godspeed.
Finally,I warm in the knowledge that these men & women will return to a society that will provide and care for their needs for evermore.The shameful treatment of previous veterans will never be repeated.
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Keep in mind that conscription will be a last resort. Anything less won't be accepted by the people. And if it's a last resort, even though I hate the thought of being shot at (and even worse shooting back), I'd sign up.
I expect it would be a matter of the Western world (or country) being overrun, or all of the Muslim world rising up for war. In which case the West (free world) needs everyman man and woman they can get.
I believe that's the potential reality of the situation. But, that's hypothetical and we're nowhere near it for now.
And as for Ms. Despoja, perhaps she should [dare I say it...] get back to her ironing...
Good luck to our boys behind enemy lines.
Turbofan
I expect it would be a matter of the Western world (or country) being overrun, or all of the Muslim world rising up for war. In which case the West (free world) needs everyman man and woman they can get.
I believe that's the potential reality of the situation. But, that's hypothetical and we're nowhere near it for now.
And as for Ms. Despoja, perhaps she should [dare I say it...] get back to her ironing...
Good luck to our boys behind enemy lines.
Turbofan
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Turbo,
Its Senator Stott-Despoja to you... respected political leader with bigger balls than you will ever have.
The senator has a clear mandate to represent the view that not everyone is thrilled with Howard signing all of us up for World War 3 so quickly without even adequate parliamentary debate.
Best wishes to the brave personnel of the ADF.
Its Senator Stott-Despoja to you... respected political leader with bigger balls than you will ever have.
The senator has a clear mandate to represent the view that not everyone is thrilled with Howard signing all of us up for World War 3 so quickly without even adequate parliamentary debate.
Best wishes to the brave personnel of the ADF.
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bulldog69
I'm with you, conscription would not be one of my first choices.
But when you have the likes of Despoja wanting to debate whether the world is in strife or not and whether we should participate in its rescue or not, when it clearly is in fact, then, when we run out of men and women volunteers who clearly understand this and the rest are hiding behind her skirts then we will have no options but to.
The draft was designed to distribute the burden fairly across the population, I did not get balloted but my younger brother did and it was all over by the youngest. We both held commisioned rank in the Citizens forces at the time. I still have the card that had to be kept in my passport that "authorised" my frequent comings and goings from this country as a loser/winner
of this lottery.
A close friend was balloted and from a budding career in a bank rose to a colonelcy with a highly decorated and distinguished career before retiring. He could not have in his wildest dreams imagine where this lottery would take him in this life and, I think, would not now change a thing.
So it does have its pluses.
You are right it is criminal that the ADF has been allowed to run down to its present parlous state presumably to fund other social programmes.
Those who may be conscripted should understand that there is a cost to the freedom they enjoy to indulge themselves. The Taliban have other ideas about indulgence.
They should share that cost if it becomes necessary.
I'm with you, conscription would not be one of my first choices.
But when you have the likes of Despoja wanting to debate whether the world is in strife or not and whether we should participate in its rescue or not, when it clearly is in fact, then, when we run out of men and women volunteers who clearly understand this and the rest are hiding behind her skirts then we will have no options but to.
The draft was designed to distribute the burden fairly across the population, I did not get balloted but my younger brother did and it was all over by the youngest. We both held commisioned rank in the Citizens forces at the time. I still have the card that had to be kept in my passport that "authorised" my frequent comings and goings from this country as a loser/winner
of this lottery.A close friend was balloted and from a budding career in a bank rose to a colonelcy with a highly decorated and distinguished career before retiring. He could not have in his wildest dreams imagine where this lottery would take him in this life and, I think, would not now change a thing.
So it does have its pluses.
You are right it is criminal that the ADF has been allowed to run down to its present parlous state presumably to fund other social programmes.
Those who may be conscripted should understand that there is a cost to the freedom they enjoy to indulge themselves. The Taliban have other ideas about indulgence.
They should share that cost if it becomes necessary.
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You have all gone mad....this is not Jihad,The Crusades or WW3.Some of the previous comments are concerning.
A professional fighting force is seeking out a group of terrorists.We are not at war with Islam.Don`t escalate through a hyperbole.
By the way,modern warfare has no place for Dads` Army type volunteers,sorry to disappoint.
A professional fighting force is seeking out a group of terrorists.We are not at war with Islam.Don`t escalate through a hyperbole.
By the way,modern warfare has no place for Dads` Army type volunteers,sorry to disappoint.
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daytrader - it is John Howard with the mandate and if he decides to send troops to search out scumbag terrorists then so be it. No debate necessary or required.
I agree with Turbo and when Tasha has finished the ironing there is plenty of work in the kitchen and cleaning to do!!!!
[ 18 October 2001: Message edited by: Whiskery ]
I agree with Turbo and when Tasha has finished the ironing there is plenty of work in the kitchen and cleaning to do!!!!
[ 18 October 2001: Message edited by: Whiskery ]
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bulldog69
Well what do you call it when one party takes out 5,000 of your citizens, razes one end of your major financial centre, and then watch footage of their supporters around the world dancing in the streets.
And I'm not even going to start on the Anthrax routine.
Nup we are ALL in this one.
Of course our young men and women are much better at modern warfare, but this Dad would be quite happy suppporting them in any way I am able, even if it means doing the washing, ironing and cleaning for them.
Well what do you call it when one party takes out 5,000 of your citizens, razes one end of your major financial centre, and then watch footage of their supporters around the world dancing in the streets.
And I'm not even going to start on the Anthrax routine.
Nup we are ALL in this one.
Of course our young men and women are much better at modern warfare, but this Dad would be quite happy suppporting them in any way I am able, even if it means doing the washing, ironing and cleaning for them.
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God speed our young men and women and I hope they all return home safe to their loved ones.
In reading all the comments on this thread I can't help but be reminded of something I once saw attributed to Father Dennis Edward O'Brien - it might give some of you pause for thought about the very freedom you exercise everday in the simple act of posting your thoughts, grievances and rebuttals here in an open forum or anywhere you like in our free and tolerant society. At the very least, I post it to respect and support our ADF:-
"It is the Soldier, not the reporter who has given us freedom of press
It is the Soldier, not the poet who has given us freedom of speech
It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer who gives us freedom to demonstrate
It is the Soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag, and whose sacrifice allows the protester to burn the flag."
Their fathers and grandfathers gave us this freedom and now the present generation of soldier is about to march into harm's way to preserve it, for September 11 and the events that have followed are indeed an attack on all that we enjoy and take for granted in our daily lives.
Gaunty, I too have a son who in a very short time might qualify as a conscript. I hope this engagement doesn't last that long and it doesn't come to that.
In reading all the comments on this thread I can't help but be reminded of something I once saw attributed to Father Dennis Edward O'Brien - it might give some of you pause for thought about the very freedom you exercise everday in the simple act of posting your thoughts, grievances and rebuttals here in an open forum or anywhere you like in our free and tolerant society. At the very least, I post it to respect and support our ADF:-
"It is the Soldier, not the reporter who has given us freedom of press
It is the Soldier, not the poet who has given us freedom of speech
It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer who gives us freedom to demonstrate
It is the Soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag, and whose sacrifice allows the protester to burn the flag."
Their fathers and grandfathers gave us this freedom and now the present generation of soldier is about to march into harm's way to preserve it, for September 11 and the events that have followed are indeed an attack on all that we enjoy and take for granted in our daily lives.
Gaunty, I too have a son who in a very short time might qualify as a conscript. I hope this engagement doesn't last that long and it doesn't come to that.
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Hi all, found this interesting letter to the editor in todays West Australian.
Peaceful Punch
With all of this talk of war, many of us will encounter peace activists who will try to convince us that we must refrain from retaliating against the ones who terrorised us all on September 11. These activists may be alone or in a gathering. Most of us do not know how to react to them. When you come upon one of these people here are the proper rules of etiquette.
Listen politely while this person explains his views. Strike up a conversation if necessary and look very interested in his ideas. The person will tell you how revenge is immoral; that by attacking the people who did this to us we will bring on more violence. He will probably use many arguments, ranging from political to religious to humanitarian.
In the middle of the person's remarks, without any warning, punch him on the nose. When the person gets up off the ground, he will be very angry and may try to hit you, so be careful.
Very quickly and calmly remind the person that violence brings about more violence and remind him of his stand on this matter. Tell him if he is committed to a non-violent approach to undeserved attacks, he will seek to negotiate a peaceful solution. Tell him he must lead by example if he really believes what he is saying.
Repeat these steps until the desired results are obtained and the idiot realises how stupid his argument is.
RUSSELL SHURTS,
Centennial, Colorado, US.
May anyone who leave our shores to fight return safely.
[ 18 October 2001: Message edited by: Hightower ]
Peaceful Punch
With all of this talk of war, many of us will encounter peace activists who will try to convince us that we must refrain from retaliating against the ones who terrorised us all on September 11. These activists may be alone or in a gathering. Most of us do not know how to react to them. When you come upon one of these people here are the proper rules of etiquette.
Listen politely while this person explains his views. Strike up a conversation if necessary and look very interested in his ideas. The person will tell you how revenge is immoral; that by attacking the people who did this to us we will bring on more violence. He will probably use many arguments, ranging from political to religious to humanitarian.
In the middle of the person's remarks, without any warning, punch him on the nose. When the person gets up off the ground, he will be very angry and may try to hit you, so be careful.
Very quickly and calmly remind the person that violence brings about more violence and remind him of his stand on this matter. Tell him if he is committed to a non-violent approach to undeserved attacks, he will seek to negotiate a peaceful solution. Tell him he must lead by example if he really believes what he is saying.
Repeat these steps until the desired results are obtained and the idiot realises how stupid his argument is.
RUSSELL SHURTS,
Centennial, Colorado, US.
May anyone who leave our shores to fight return safely.
[ 18 October 2001: Message edited by: Hightower ]
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Gaunty
you are at war with Islam,I am not.Be careful what you wish for,especially war with Indonesia.That would be the gravest hour this nation ever faced.
I hope Bin Laden fries in his cave,possibly even hit by a SAS trooper(we got the Red Baron).I am not however,at war with Islam.
you are at war with Islam,I am not.Be careful what you wish for,especially war with Indonesia.That would be the gravest hour this nation ever faced.
I hope Bin Laden fries in his cave,possibly even hit by a SAS trooper(we got the Red Baron).I am not however,at war with Islam.
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bulldog69
Oh eponymous one?
I am not at war with Islam nor do I recall any mention of this in mine or anybodies posts on this thread.
Terrorism is the subject.
It does not fit neatly into any definition of "war" but it 'is' nonetheless.
I heard it described by a commentator in the US as "assymetric war" in the context of a very few against many.
I too would hope that we don't have a stoush with our Indon friends, but there is some evidence that suggests that there is a finite probability. Maintaining a state of denial in this or any other scenario is foolish. Now tell me that their military is there to maintain internal order.
Anyway I came here to support our young men and women being sent into harms way and not to hijack the thread. Perhaps we should carry on this debate elsewhere.
Oh eponymous one?
I am not at war with Islam nor do I recall any mention of this in mine or anybodies posts on this thread.
Terrorism is the subject.
It does not fit neatly into any definition of "war" but it 'is' nonetheless.
I heard it described by a commentator in the US as "assymetric war" in the context of a very few against many.
I too would hope that we don't have a stoush with our Indon friends, but there is some evidence that suggests that there is a finite probability. Maintaining a state of denial in this or any other scenario is foolish. Now tell me that their military is there to maintain internal order.
Anyway I came here to support our young men and women being sent into harms way and not to hijack the thread. Perhaps we should carry on this debate elsewhere.
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First heard about the 1500 Aussie troops on the American ABC national news last night. To everyone back home including the ADF personnel about to depart; Australia's contribution has not gone unnoticed. The yanks like to know they're not in this alone and appreciate the Aussies helping out.
Nice going to work now....while it lasts.
Nice going to work now....while it lasts.
To all of our service men and women serving overseas, may you return safely with your work well done.
I don't see that this is a case of us v Islam but, with the leader of the Maluku (sp?) islamic fundamentalists having links to both bin Liner and the Indonesian vice President and the Veep 'encouraging' Megawati to tone down her support for the 'War against Terrorism', there is a very real danger that we could see Islam v us. Whether we like it or not!!
Only then will conscription become a reality (as well as a necessity)
I don't see that this is a case of us v Islam but, with the leader of the Maluku (sp?) islamic fundamentalists having links to both bin Liner and the Indonesian vice President and the Veep 'encouraging' Megawati to tone down her support for the 'War against Terrorism', there is a very real danger that we could see Islam v us. Whether we like it or not!!
Only then will conscription become a reality (as well as a necessity)