QF Regional Management Appointments
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Living next door to Alan
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also heard Bevan did not go by choice.
Spinout, I don't know about "bringing into line", more like all 3 getting together to standardise procedures. I don't know who is leading the way on that one......
Jake, I know you are purporting to AIPA, but they are yet to approach the pilot groups with anything more tangible than the AFAP. The perception is generally that we would be used as 'cannon fodder' by AIPA. Right or wrong, that's why not much has happened.
Don't get me wrong: The AFAP has effectively taken us backwards for at least the last 2 EBA's. However, it is up to the AIPA to prove to us that they could do better, and have OUR interests, as well as their own at heart.
From what I saw at the IRC hearings towards the end of proceedings, it was indeed the AIPA in conjunction with QF management(sic) that was opposed to integration. Therefore they have some bridges to mend if they wish to represent everyone.......Get your boys on it now and prove me wrong.....
Shaftie, Impulse are contractors. They have no seniority in the big picture, in fact do not subscribe to any award, and regardless of whether QF buy them or not, they do not fit into the plan I have referred to in previous posts.
[ 18 November 2001: Message edited by: Hugh Jarse ]
Spinout, I don't know about "bringing into line", more like all 3 getting together to standardise procedures. I don't know who is leading the way on that one......
Jake, I know you are purporting to AIPA, but they are yet to approach the pilot groups with anything more tangible than the AFAP. The perception is generally that we would be used as 'cannon fodder' by AIPA. Right or wrong, that's why not much has happened.
Don't get me wrong: The AFAP has effectively taken us backwards for at least the last 2 EBA's. However, it is up to the AIPA to prove to us that they could do better, and have OUR interests, as well as their own at heart.
From what I saw at the IRC hearings towards the end of proceedings, it was indeed the AIPA in conjunction with QF management(sic) that was opposed to integration. Therefore they have some bridges to mend if they wish to represent everyone.......Get your boys on it now and prove me wrong.....
Shaftie, Impulse are contractors. They have no seniority in the big picture, in fact do not subscribe to any award, and regardless of whether QF buy them or not, they do not fit into the plan I have referred to in previous posts.
[ 18 November 2001: Message edited by: Hugh Jarse ]
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hugh,
realistically I would like to know what you would expect to be offered?
What sort of Integration would be enough?
Would you expect to have to apply for a Mainline position and meet the requirements set or just slot across? The future could be really bright for Regional Pilots with a will for change.
To answer a previous question by another poster:-
The AFAP I'm talking about are those responsible for ratifying this 737 pay rate for Australian Pilots.
realistically I would like to know what you would expect to be offered?
What sort of Integration would be enough?
Would you expect to have to apply for a Mainline position and meet the requirements set or just slot across? The future could be really bright for Regional Pilots with a will for change.
To answer a previous question by another poster:-
The AFAP I'm talking about are those responsible for ratifying this 737 pay rate for Australian Pilots.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Abeam Alice Springs
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hugh .. yes, know you weren't around, so maybe it is different now. But the damage was done back then and a chance to move on has been missed by quite a few over those years. The only chance now would be a move by the AIPA. It may have another chance with their involvement? 
Shaft ! Oh dear me. Obviously some explanation required. Firstly I have been an AFAP member for many years… perhaps longer than you. That notwithstanding, if any other group were to be in a position to represent the regional pilot group better, then they should put their case forward…. I have no problem with that. Over the years, they have served me well, but to be honest I am very disappointed in the representation by the Feds over the past few years.
I don't know what 'time frame' you speak of… but if you were around in 1990 then you would know that career progression was high on the list of items under discussion by the regionals –To put it bluntly, it was shot down by the very hard line taken by the Eastern representatives of the day that wanted everything and did not want to give anything away… the result is that we got nothing! The same group that killed off the chance of D8-300's being introduced in the mid '90's because they were not getting them first and did not like the pay the other group had agreed too (which was somewhat above what you are getting for flying it now!).
Your reference to Tassie eludes me ! What was the issue to which you refer?
Your example of the same crew running up and down the coast is a pipe dream at present because the Eastern Dash8 SOPs are still not the same as those at Sunstate/Southern. EAA also have a non-standard GPS fitted and as you know you have to be current on the type of GPS for NPAs, so swapping the aircraft around is not on in the short term either. Fleet standardization is a significant issue – and don't forget there is an aeroplane behind the cockpit door – the standardization there is non-existent. And don’t' forget the paperwork.
All of this costs…. and for a quick overnight get-together it just aint gonna happen without a lot of planning and cost justification etc. I would expect some other changes first.
Sure BC moved at the direction of QF… but to Air Connex NOT Impulse. There is a difference and you being so knowledgeable should know. Maybe it is you that jumped in feet first? Besides you don't yet know what AK has in mind - do you?
Shaft ! Oh dear me. Obviously some explanation required. Firstly I have been an AFAP member for many years… perhaps longer than you. That notwithstanding, if any other group were to be in a position to represent the regional pilot group better, then they should put their case forward…. I have no problem with that. Over the years, they have served me well, but to be honest I am very disappointed in the representation by the Feds over the past few years.
I don't know what 'time frame' you speak of… but if you were around in 1990 then you would know that career progression was high on the list of items under discussion by the regionals –To put it bluntly, it was shot down by the very hard line taken by the Eastern representatives of the day that wanted everything and did not want to give anything away… the result is that we got nothing! The same group that killed off the chance of D8-300's being introduced in the mid '90's because they were not getting them first and did not like the pay the other group had agreed too (which was somewhat above what you are getting for flying it now!).
Your reference to Tassie eludes me ! What was the issue to which you refer?
Your example of the same crew running up and down the coast is a pipe dream at present because the Eastern Dash8 SOPs are still not the same as those at Sunstate/Southern. EAA also have a non-standard GPS fitted and as you know you have to be current on the type of GPS for NPAs, so swapping the aircraft around is not on in the short term either. Fleet standardization is a significant issue – and don't forget there is an aeroplane behind the cockpit door – the standardization there is non-existent. And don’t' forget the paperwork.
All of this costs…. and for a quick overnight get-together it just aint gonna happen without a lot of planning and cost justification etc. I would expect some other changes first.
Sure BC moved at the direction of QF… but to Air Connex NOT Impulse. There is a difference and you being so knowledgeable should know. Maybe it is you that jumped in feet first? Besides you don't yet know what AK has in mind - do you?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Living next door to Alan
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jake, I couldn't speak on behalf of my colleagues.
Fair treatment and realistic career prospects are a starting point (IMHO).
I would have emailed you, but it is blocked......
Fair treatment and realistic career prospects are a starting point (IMHO).
I would have emailed you, but it is blocked......
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hugh, maybe we are already speaking.
With this Impulse buyout today it is imperative for the futures of Regional Pilots that you assess your career desires and who you think you will achieve it under i.e. AIPA or AFAP.
Impulse Pilots want AIPA Representation! No what's in it for me. It is very likely that they will be brought under the AIPA umbrella and receive the benefits.
It would be a sad day if the other Qantas owned Regionals missed out IMHO.
Write or Fax AIPA and request a representation of what they can do for you. You must do this as they cannot approach you due to legalities. Don't be blinkered or swayed by rhetoric, it's your future.
the future is bright. Make It Happen!
With this Impulse buyout today it is imperative for the futures of Regional Pilots that you assess your career desires and who you think you will achieve it under i.e. AIPA or AFAP.
Impulse Pilots want AIPA Representation! No what's in it for me. It is very likely that they will be brought under the AIPA umbrella and receive the benefits.
It would be a sad day if the other Qantas owned Regionals missed out IMHO.
Write or Fax AIPA and request a representation of what they can do for you. You must do this as they cannot approach you due to legalities. Don't be blinkered or swayed by rhetoric, it's your future.
the future is bright. Make It Happen!
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Aust.
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with:
What do you think of that, The rat has bought impulse! That makes 4 wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas
Jake the Muss:
I have the best job in oz and probably the world. The AFAP have been just fine as far as my working conditions and benefits go. They have just as much bargaining power as any other organisation.
I don't know about Virgin's paid rates and how they feel about then, I gees they're not as greedy you and your mates. I understand that the virgin pilot are members from s/o and had input into their award. So DON'T blame the afap.
It may be time for all pilots to be under the one umbrella, your organisation could always return to its roots.
Young Regional Pilots as you put us need to trust the organisation they are with. I gees I'm saying a lot of the regionals don't trust your mob!
I wouldn't be so shore that the majority of impulse pilots want to be covered by you either; it's that trust thing again.
:o 
Triadic: You may have being a member for longer than me, I doubt it, and it's irrelevant.
You sound as it you would jump ship at the drop of a hat. If you are disappointed with your representation do something about it, get onto your Pilot Council or committee or whatever and give some imput. The Federation is its members, not some buildings or the staff.
I don't know why you keep blaming the poor Eastern Pilots for losing the integration case, my information it is that it was a joint effort by all the regionals and it was AIPA that dropped you in it! so to speak.
Who was it that stuff, the progression agreement between the Regional's it definitely was not the Eastern or Sunstate group. Dash 8 300 I heard the price was agreed and Qantas reneged on the dele and National jet wanted the aircraft back. So don't blame the Eastern Pilots. Sops will be standardised and you might find that it is Eastern that everyone follows, including GPS fittings.
BC as you properly know by now is the GM of impulse and not Air Connex and no I don't know what AK has in mind! Not much I've herd.
Have a nice career.
[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: Shaft135 ]
What do you think of that, The rat has bought impulse! That makes 4 wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas
Jake the Muss:
I have the best job in oz and probably the world. The AFAP have been just fine as far as my working conditions and benefits go. They have just as much bargaining power as any other organisation.
I don't know about Virgin's paid rates and how they feel about then, I gees they're not as greedy you and your mates. I understand that the virgin pilot are members from s/o and had input into their award. So DON'T blame the afap.
It may be time for all pilots to be under the one umbrella, your organisation could always return to its roots.
Young Regional Pilots as you put us need to trust the organisation they are with. I gees I'm saying a lot of the regionals don't trust your mob!
I wouldn't be so shore that the majority of impulse pilots want to be covered by you either; it's that trust thing again.
:o
Triadic: You may have being a member for longer than me, I doubt it, and it's irrelevant.
You sound as it you would jump ship at the drop of a hat. If you are disappointed with your representation do something about it, get onto your Pilot Council or committee or whatever and give some imput. The Federation is its members, not some buildings or the staff.
I don't know why you keep blaming the poor Eastern Pilots for losing the integration case, my information it is that it was a joint effort by all the regionals and it was AIPA that dropped you in it! so to speak.
Who was it that stuff, the progression agreement between the Regional's it definitely was not the Eastern or Sunstate group. Dash 8 300 I heard the price was agreed and Qantas reneged on the dele and National jet wanted the aircraft back. So don't blame the Eastern Pilots. Sops will be standardised and you might find that it is Eastern that everyone follows, including GPS fittings.
BC as you properly know by now is the GM of impulse and not Air Connex and no I don't know what AK has in mind! Not much I've herd.
Have a nice career.
[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: Shaft135 ]
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Dear Jake,
Your suggestion that QF Regional Pilots would be better off with AIPA is indeed interesting. As you are so well endowed with knowledge of the workings of the two unions in question will you please enlighten the rest of the punters about an organisation called "Aus ALPA".
How it originated?
What is its aims and objectives?
How is it administered?
Who administers it?
HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF IT???
A quick look at Aus ALPA will confirm to anybody interested that the very people who you purport to look after the Regional Pilots are alredy screwing them. What would happen if everyone was in the same bed? More of the same!
Hugh
EBA's are negotiated by your pilot council not the AFAP, in fact in recent times your council has not been entirely honest with either its members or the staff of the AFAP thats why your unhappy with the results of the last couple of EBA's.
Shaft,
On the question of which GPS unit will become the standard, it wont be the one EAA chose! WHY? Because it is no longer in production.
Your suggestion that QF Regional Pilots would be better off with AIPA is indeed interesting. As you are so well endowed with knowledge of the workings of the two unions in question will you please enlighten the rest of the punters about an organisation called "Aus ALPA".
How it originated?
What is its aims and objectives?
How is it administered?
Who administers it?
HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF IT???
A quick look at Aus ALPA will confirm to anybody interested that the very people who you purport to look after the Regional Pilots are alredy screwing them. What would happen if everyone was in the same bed? More of the same!
Hugh
EBA's are negotiated by your pilot council not the AFAP, in fact in recent times your council has not been entirely honest with either its members or the staff of the AFAP thats why your unhappy with the results of the last couple of EBA's.
Shaft,
On the question of which GPS unit will become the standard, it wont be the one EAA chose! WHY? Because it is no longer in production.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Abeam Alice Springs
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shaft:
Don't feel like extending this discussion, but some facts need to be covered:
I have been a Fed member for many years and they have looked after my interests well in more ways than one. That does not mean I would or would not "jump", but I would certainly examine any other proposal. I certainly agree that like any organization it is the people that make it work. I have spent my time on councils and representative groups over the years and know what it is like. If there were an alternative that would put all the pilots in one group it would have to be very closely examined. Career progression which is important to the young pilots, I think, would only occur under the AIPA for reasons most would be aware of. The very hard line taken principally by some of the EA group certainly contributed significantly to the failure of an suitable agreement around 10 years ago. The FA's got one, so why do you think the pilots missed out? AIPA did not have anything to do with it. Not quite right on the -300. There was two bites at the cherry and EA pilot group influence downed the first one and QF the second because they lost it with the amount of haggling that went on, during which the option went from two to one aircraft. Re SOPs, I understand the EA EFATO procedures are to be brought into line soon with the others. As for the GPS, it cost over twice as much, is no longer in production and will be without support sometime next year. Fleet standardization is an issue that will no doubt see GPS and other fitment changes. I hope BC does well. Only time will tell what other changes are around the corner and no doubt AK will show his style in due course. The next year will be interesting for us all.
Enjoy!
Don't feel like extending this discussion, but some facts need to be covered:
I have been a Fed member for many years and they have looked after my interests well in more ways than one. That does not mean I would or would not "jump", but I would certainly examine any other proposal. I certainly agree that like any organization it is the people that make it work. I have spent my time on councils and representative groups over the years and know what it is like. If there were an alternative that would put all the pilots in one group it would have to be very closely examined. Career progression which is important to the young pilots, I think, would only occur under the AIPA for reasons most would be aware of. The very hard line taken principally by some of the EA group certainly contributed significantly to the failure of an suitable agreement around 10 years ago. The FA's got one, so why do you think the pilots missed out? AIPA did not have anything to do with it. Not quite right on the -300. There was two bites at the cherry and EA pilot group influence downed the first one and QF the second because they lost it with the amount of haggling that went on, during which the option went from two to one aircraft. Re SOPs, I understand the EA EFATO procedures are to be brought into line soon with the others. As for the GPS, it cost over twice as much, is no longer in production and will be without support sometime next year. Fleet standardization is an issue that will no doubt see GPS and other fitment changes. I hope BC does well. Only time will tell what other changes are around the corner and no doubt AK will show his style in due course. The next year will be interesting for us all.
Enjoy!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Pilot Grinder
Posts: 362
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This crap never stops does it?
Fact, EAA did drive the intergration case make no mistake about it, they even expressed annoyance that the other two regionals were on their coat tails so to speak (remember EAA are the "Senior Regional)and did not consult or seek opinion from the other Regionals, but were more than happy to have the support when it started to go pearshaped at the end.
Fact, AFAP do influence the outcome of EBA's and will continue to do so as they want to hold the Regionals as a whole to their agenda and get miffed if you chose to challenge or change that attitude.
Fact, EAA have openly expressed anger to the AFAP for allowing SAA and Sunstate to negotiate items in thier EBA's without consulting them. Who portrays an elitest arrogant attitude....EAA maybe???
Get it right, the Regionals are all in for an interesting time AIPA will give you all the assurances in the world that they will look after you but at the end of the day there are a hell of a lot of pilots that do not want the Regionals to expand and will pressure the principal officers to keep the thumb screws on. Feds on the other hand need to take a long hard look at the big picture and stop pontificating themselves as the only body that can do the job of representing pilots.
[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: DEFJET ]
Fact, EAA did drive the intergration case make no mistake about it, they even expressed annoyance that the other two regionals were on their coat tails so to speak (remember EAA are the "Senior Regional)and did not consult or seek opinion from the other Regionals, but were more than happy to have the support when it started to go pearshaped at the end.
Fact, AFAP do influence the outcome of EBA's and will continue to do so as they want to hold the Regionals as a whole to their agenda and get miffed if you chose to challenge or change that attitude.
Fact, EAA have openly expressed anger to the AFAP for allowing SAA and Sunstate to negotiate items in thier EBA's without consulting them. Who portrays an elitest arrogant attitude....EAA maybe???
Get it right, the Regionals are all in for an interesting time AIPA will give you all the assurances in the world that they will look after you but at the end of the day there are a hell of a lot of pilots that do not want the Regionals to expand and will pressure the principal officers to keep the thumb screws on. Feds on the other hand need to take a long hard look at the big picture and stop pontificating themselves as the only body that can do the job of representing pilots.
[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: DEFJET ]
