Non Flying Duties?
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Join Date: Aug 2001
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Non Flying Duties?
G'day all,
Would like to know the general go for GA charter pilots when not flying. Working in NSW as charter pilot (C310), have 2200TT, 640 multi am on $200 per week retainer and $45/hour flying, only get retainer if do less than $200 per week flying ie 4.5 hrs. We do all normal duties associated when not flying ie washing, cleaning etc. but boss wants us there 8.00am to 5.00pm everyday whilst not flying, just sitting around on our fat a#$%#. As our CP is off site wants me to do all CP duties with no extra pay. I know I am just whinging, but am keen to see what other pilots/companies do, as I don't know if I am on a good wicket or not?
Regards.
Would like to know the general go for GA charter pilots when not flying. Working in NSW as charter pilot (C310), have 2200TT, 640 multi am on $200 per week retainer and $45/hour flying, only get retainer if do less than $200 per week flying ie 4.5 hrs. We do all normal duties associated when not flying ie washing, cleaning etc. but boss wants us there 8.00am to 5.00pm everyday whilst not flying, just sitting around on our fat a#$%#. As our CP is off site wants me to do all CP duties with no extra pay. I know I am just whinging, but am keen to see what other pilots/companies do, as I don't know if I am on a good wicket or not?
Regards.
Join Date: Dec 1999
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how about 7am to 5pm, 6 days a week, no retainer ie. no fly= no pay
plus all the usual Non Flying Duties.
gotta love GA!
begs the question:
as an operator, do you pay staff more and get better performance and less staff turnover
OR: pay staff less and they don't feel inclined to do the right thing, leading to greater staff turnover and associated training costs.
plus all the usual Non Flying Duties.
gotta love GA!
begs the question:
as an operator, do you pay staff more and get better performance and less staff turnover
OR: pay staff less and they don't feel inclined to do the right thing, leading to greater staff turnover and associated training costs.
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Well it has not changed in 30 odd years that I know of. There will always be suckers who will work for peanuts or whatever scraps are thrown their way.
If you are not getting paid what you should be, i.e. the GA Award, then give the operator the flick.
It is only continuing a very bad system if pilots do not stand up for their rights.
When the GA Award was about to come out in the early 70s, our employer called all of us into his office and let us know that if the Award was greater than what we were being paid, we would get it. He may have not liked it, but he paid it. He also had loyal staff.
So present day operators should thake note and pay the correct wages and pilots should demand it.
The other thing, how are your flight and duty times logged. If you are at the operators place of employment, you are on duty and this should be all accounted for. I hope that you are not just adding a little bit to the flight time, when you do fly, to get your duty time. If so you are being screwed twice.
[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: ozoilfield ]
If you are not getting paid what you should be, i.e. the GA Award, then give the operator the flick.
It is only continuing a very bad system if pilots do not stand up for their rights.
When the GA Award was about to come out in the early 70s, our employer called all of us into his office and let us know that if the Award was greater than what we were being paid, we would get it. He may have not liked it, but he paid it. He also had loyal staff.
So present day operators should thake note and pay the correct wages and pilots should demand it.
The other thing, how are your flight and duty times logged. If you are at the operators place of employment, you are on duty and this should be all accounted for. I hope that you are not just adding a little bit to the flight time, when you do fly, to get your duty time. If so you are being screwed twice.
[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: ozoilfield ]
Join Date: May 2001
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Hi all,
At the moment I feel I work for one of the better GA companies with a great boss and CP. If its not in the book we don't do it, which takes alot of weight off our backs so we're not thinking along the lines of "It's only 60 kilos over and this one always sits on its ar*e anyway".
But it doesn't stop me from feeling for guys out there who are being screwed. It's all fine and well for us to say "pack your bags and leave, your boss is a bastard", but it's different when you are in that position. Most of us have loans to pay back, ourselves to feed, medicals every year, uniforms to maintain, documents to renew, cars to run so we can get to this place of screwing at god knows what hour of the day etc etc, and all of this takes money. Now if you are only just keeping you head above water, how are you going to afford to quit, move on with no work to try and find another job that might be even worse than the on you are in. And if you do leave you know there is always going to be some little low hour guy who will gladly work for nothing and live on roadkill (I know this is where the problem stems from but it's an inherited problem).
One could say it is a Rock and a Hard place situation. All I'm saying is that its not as easy as saying pack your bags sunshine. Perhaps it would take government regulation but I daresay that we already have more than enough regulation in this industry without more paperwork for the boss (and us).
My two bobs worth.
Twin
At the moment I feel I work for one of the better GA companies with a great boss and CP. If its not in the book we don't do it, which takes alot of weight off our backs so we're not thinking along the lines of "It's only 60 kilos over and this one always sits on its ar*e anyway".
But it doesn't stop me from feeling for guys out there who are being screwed. It's all fine and well for us to say "pack your bags and leave, your boss is a bastard", but it's different when you are in that position. Most of us have loans to pay back, ourselves to feed, medicals every year, uniforms to maintain, documents to renew, cars to run so we can get to this place of screwing at god knows what hour of the day etc etc, and all of this takes money. Now if you are only just keeping you head above water, how are you going to afford to quit, move on with no work to try and find another job that might be even worse than the on you are in. And if you do leave you know there is always going to be some little low hour guy who will gladly work for nothing and live on roadkill (I know this is where the problem stems from but it's an inherited problem).
One could say it is a Rock and a Hard place situation. All I'm saying is that its not as easy as saying pack your bags sunshine. Perhaps it would take government regulation but I daresay that we already have more than enough regulation in this industry without more paperwork for the boss (and us).
My two bobs worth.
Twin
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Dont compromise your own ethics, and the wellbeing of your fellow pilots. After all where then do you stop the compromising???
Office "chicks" get paid award wages, operations people get paid properly as well, no one else in this industry seems to work for nothing except pilots......
If your boss cant afford to pay you properly (award casual rates with 2hr notification or full time with the other add-ons)he could be compromising so many other important aspects as well ("just go VFR you'll be right"). You are placing alot of trust in an employer who utimately couldnt give two hoots, because there are plenty more pilots who have no qualms about compromise.
Check the award (search oziris.gov.au i think) and if your boss isnt paying you according to these minimums be careful. Industrial Relations wont get back the money you think youve been short changed.
I know what the cost of standing up for yourself is. I rather be grounded temporarily than play roulette with my passengers and my life. At least I have an informed choice, the passengers often dont.
Arm yourself with all the inforation you can, better too much than too little, and when you next go flying just ask yourself, if I went to court today, would I potentially lose my licence?
Office "chicks" get paid award wages, operations people get paid properly as well, no one else in this industry seems to work for nothing except pilots......
If your boss cant afford to pay you properly (award casual rates with 2hr notification or full time with the other add-ons)he could be compromising so many other important aspects as well ("just go VFR you'll be right"). You are placing alot of trust in an employer who utimately couldnt give two hoots, because there are plenty more pilots who have no qualms about compromise.
Check the award (search oziris.gov.au i think) and if your boss isnt paying you according to these minimums be careful. Industrial Relations wont get back the money you think youve been short changed.
I know what the cost of standing up for yourself is. I rather be grounded temporarily than play roulette with my passengers and my life. At least I have an informed choice, the passengers often dont.
Arm yourself with all the inforation you can, better too much than too little, and when you next go flying just ask yourself, if I went to court today, would I potentially lose my licence?
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Lets be realistic for just a second.
If thats you first job, then use it to get the minimum hours and move. Dont give ample notice just walk.
In your case, with over 2000 hours total, you shouldn't be anywhere near that joint.
Head bush laddy! The experience you'll get, combined with the money, career progression and friends **** on the work down south.. My first job in the bush gained 2300 hours, 1000 twin, instrument rating courtesy of the company all within 2.5 years. The boss even arranged interviews with turbine companies and provided the reference.
My 5 cents worth......
If thats you first job, then use it to get the minimum hours and move. Dont give ample notice just walk.
In your case, with over 2000 hours total, you shouldn't be anywhere near that joint.
Head bush laddy! The experience you'll get, combined with the money, career progression and friends **** on the work down south.. My first job in the bush gained 2300 hours, 1000 twin, instrument rating courtesy of the company all within 2.5 years. The boss even arranged interviews with turbine companies and provided the reference.
My 5 cents worth......
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I'm not aware if this has changed at all, but as far as I know this is still the current GA award...
The GA award as from the Osiris website
The GA award as from the Osiris website
Join Date: Apr 2001
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I agree with Twin NDB "Most of us have loans to pay back, ourselves to feed, medicals every year, uniforms to maintain, documents to renew, cars to run so we can get to this place of screwing at god knows what hour of the day etc etc, and all of this takes money. Now if you are only just keeping you head above water, how are you going to afford to quit, move on with no work to try and find another job that might be even worse than the on you are in. And if you do leave you know there is always going to be some little low hour guy who will gladly work for nothing and live on roadkill". ucanbashthat is one of them. He /she does him / herself and us no good. Ask for the award or move on to a job that pays the award.Have a talk to the IRC, you might get a bonus.
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ucanbashthat,
Get out of there. If he can't pay you an hourly rate (and a good one) for the time that your on duty, than you are getting ripped off big time.
If you don't do any flying and are sitting at work from 0800 till 1700 for 6 days a week you are only earning $3.70 per hour. You should be on about $17.00 per hour.
Go and ask for an increase, if the manager says no than I would suggest to go somewhere else.
Get out of there. If he can't pay you an hourly rate (and a good one) for the time that your on duty, than you are getting ripped off big time.
If you don't do any flying and are sitting at work from 0800 till 1700 for 6 days a week you are only earning $3.70 per hour. You should be on about $17.00 per hour.
Go and ask for an increase, if the manager says no than I would suggest to go somewhere else.
Join Date: May 2001
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I just had an idea:
Why donn't we get together all the older guys (meant with no disrespect) and those who want to join to form something like an aviation mafia group. We could all ride into towns put pressure on the bosses to pay award and those who don't can get a beating. Also, we could have an outpost so that any new guys who come in to work for nothing get a kicking aswell - just to make sure they never will again.
Should be fun.
Why donn't we get together all the older guys (meant with no disrespect) and those who want to join to form something like an aviation mafia group. We could all ride into towns put pressure on the bosses to pay award and those who don't can get a beating. Also, we could have an outpost so that any new guys who come in to work for nothing get a kicking aswell - just to make sure they never will again.
Should be fun.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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For those of you who are prepared to work below the award, at which point in your aviation careers do you draw the line and stop?
If Qantas or Ansett called you up tomorrow and said, "Yes, there is a position for you, but we're not paying the award" would you take it?
If Qantas or Ansett called you up tomorrow and said, "Yes, there is a position for you, but we're not paying the award" would you take it?
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TwinNDB
What a good idea as long as I get to play the barman in the hotel who rushes to get the bottles and glasses under the counter when the good guys burst thru the batwings.
Short form joke:
Young gunslinger kid bursts thru batwings.
Saloon full of card players, smoke and piano player with boater and cigar playing in corner.
Nobody takes notice of 'kid' so he pulls gun and shoots boater off piano player who doesn't miss a beat, nobody takes notice so shoots cigar out of piano players mouth, same result.
Goes to bar orders 'Redeye'
Barkeep asks to look at his gun and strongly recommends kid files off foresight and hammer and any thing else sticking out and make it real smooth.
Kid puzzled asks why
Barkeep says "Waal you see, that guy playing the piano over there is Wyatt Earp, and when he finishes the next set he's going to come over here and jam that gun right up........."
Sorry Woomera couldn't resist it.
What a good idea as long as I get to play the barman in the hotel who rushes to get the bottles and glasses under the counter when the good guys burst thru the batwings.
Short form joke:
Young gunslinger kid bursts thru batwings.
Saloon full of card players, smoke and piano player with boater and cigar playing in corner.
Nobody takes notice of 'kid' so he pulls gun and shoots boater off piano player who doesn't miss a beat, nobody takes notice so shoots cigar out of piano players mouth, same result.
Goes to bar orders 'Redeye'
Barkeep asks to look at his gun and strongly recommends kid files off foresight and hammer and any thing else sticking out and make it real smooth.
Kid puzzled asks why
Barkeep says "Waal you see, that guy playing the piano over there is Wyatt Earp, and when he finishes the next set he's going to come over here and jam that gun right up........."
Sorry Woomera couldn't resist it.
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Arrgghh I can't stand it any more - can I state the bleedin' obvious ?
There are two sides to this question.
ucanba**** - from what you said about your pay rates, you are probably getting about $20K/year, which is below the award. That is the employer's problem if you choose to take them to court after you leave. Keep a daily record of your work hours including the duty hours overrun, all your pay slips, and any evidence that places you at the office for the excess times, and offer to take the employer to court after you get your next job. You'll probably score an extra $5-$10K depending how long you worked there.
You may in fact decide not to, since the employer will probably have given you a good ref and you will be too busy enjoying your later job to drag up the past.
Up to you, thats the option in any case.
The cause of this syndrome is that, unlike ops staff or gardeners, the pilot is looking for a way out before he has even walked in the door on day one. This is a fact of life for employers and leads to a lack of respect for the pilot by the employer - 'you use me so I'll use you'.
TwinNDB's employer isn't in this category, your's might be.
The other side of the coin, beside the below Award pay, is all the extra stuff. Is it that bad ? It would be if you are getting worked into the ground and ARE too fatigued to fly.
Washing aircraft gives you a good opportunity to look at every square cm of it for broken/loose stuff. Doing the base manager/CP paperwork stuff gives you the chance to learn all that and put it in your resume. Being in the office gives you the chance to meet some dude in a B350 who needs a favour in a hurry and gets to remember you.
Or, you get to hit it off with a potential client who then flys with your company not with the sullen depressed turd down the road, so thats an extra 100 ME hours for you and your off sooner.
You can also use the time to study something or fix something that makes your job easier. (I taught myself the AS3000 Wiring Rules then re wired the entire office..)
If nothing is happening and two of you are there then take turns sleeping out the back.
All the GA whing whinge whinge means zip; there are people out there working all day with a jackhammer for about 10k pa more - the GA life is not a hard job.
The answer to the question - yep, you are on a good wicket (unless you are falling asleep while trying to fly or the boss's missus is making you clean their house), and afterwards you can choose to forget it or take it to court and make it even better.
There are two sides to this question.
ucanba**** - from what you said about your pay rates, you are probably getting about $20K/year, which is below the award. That is the employer's problem if you choose to take them to court after you leave. Keep a daily record of your work hours including the duty hours overrun, all your pay slips, and any evidence that places you at the office for the excess times, and offer to take the employer to court after you get your next job. You'll probably score an extra $5-$10K depending how long you worked there.
You may in fact decide not to, since the employer will probably have given you a good ref and you will be too busy enjoying your later job to drag up the past.
Up to you, thats the option in any case.
The cause of this syndrome is that, unlike ops staff or gardeners, the pilot is looking for a way out before he has even walked in the door on day one. This is a fact of life for employers and leads to a lack of respect for the pilot by the employer - 'you use me so I'll use you'.
TwinNDB's employer isn't in this category, your's might be.
The other side of the coin, beside the below Award pay, is all the extra stuff. Is it that bad ? It would be if you are getting worked into the ground and ARE too fatigued to fly.
Washing aircraft gives you a good opportunity to look at every square cm of it for broken/loose stuff. Doing the base manager/CP paperwork stuff gives you the chance to learn all that and put it in your resume. Being in the office gives you the chance to meet some dude in a B350 who needs a favour in a hurry and gets to remember you.
Or, you get to hit it off with a potential client who then flys with your company not with the sullen depressed turd down the road, so thats an extra 100 ME hours for you and your off sooner.
You can also use the time to study something or fix something that makes your job easier. (I taught myself the AS3000 Wiring Rules then re wired the entire office..)
If nothing is happening and two of you are there then take turns sleeping out the back.
All the GA whing whinge whinge means zip; there are people out there working all day with a jackhammer for about 10k pa more - the GA life is not a hard job.
The answer to the question - yep, you are on a good wicket (unless you are falling asleep while trying to fly or the boss's missus is making you clean their house), and afterwards you can choose to forget it or take it to court and make it even better.
Join Date: May 2001
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StallSpinCrashDie...You asked how many pilots would fly for Qantas or Ansett if they didn't get paid, I am sure there are some that would. But then again, most pilots are aspiring to work for the big birds, so they can get big pay, and then some get greedy like ...... pilots!!! 
Every PILOT is in their own situation, with their own reasons, their own morals, their own ethics, and each and everyone of us makes decisions everyday which affect not only ourselves but others...Who are we to Judge someone? What makes us better than the next?
Vx - I agree with you 100%
We all have it good compared to some people in world!
[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: Spatial Disorientation ]
Every PILOT is in their own situation, with their own reasons, their own morals, their own ethics, and each and everyone of us makes decisions everyday which affect not only ourselves but others...Who are we to Judge someone? What makes us better than the next?
Vx - I agree with you 100%
We all have it good compared to some people in world!
[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: Spatial Disorientation ]