More ATC stopworks?

[FlyBoy71]

Is it true that Brisbane and Sydney based controllers are having a stopwork meeting on Thursday 21st March between 10am and 4pm? From what I heard, Airservices are still stuffing them around and not turning up to negotiations. It would be nice to know if it's true BEFORE it happens this time.. .. .Anyway, good luck guys!

[375ml]

They've pulled their finger out this time.. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> . . C779/02 REVIEW C777/02. . POTENTIAL INDUSTRIAL ACTION. .. . THE AUSTRALIAN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL UNION HAS THREATENED INDUSTRIAL. . ACTION ON THURSDAY 21ST MARCH 2002 BETWEEN 0000UTC AND 0500UTC. . .. . POTENTIALLY AFFECTED AREAS ARE THE BRISBANE FIR INCLUDING THE. . BRISBANE AND COOLANGATTA TERMINAL AREAS, AND THE SYDNEY TERMINAL. . AREA. SERVICES IN THE MELBOURNE FIR, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SYDNEY,. . WILL BE UNAFFECTED.. .. . CONTINGENCY TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT ARRANGEMENTS ARE BEING ESTABLISHED. IT. . IS LIKELY THAT ALL CLASS E AIRSPACE WILL BE RE-DESIGNATED AS CLASS G,. . AND WITHIN CLASS G AIRSPACE, DIRECTED TRAFFIC INFORMATION SERVICES. . WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE. IT IS ALSO LIKELY THAT ALL CLASS A AND CLASS C. . AIRSPACE WILL BE RE-DESIGNATED AS A TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA.. . CONTINGENCY ARRANGEMENTS FOR MANAGING TRAFFIC IN THE RESTRICTED AREA. . WOULD BE BASED ON ICAO TIBA TYPE PROCEDURES. . .. . DURING THE SERVICE OUTAGE, PRIORITY WILL BE GIVEN TO HANDLING. . SCHEDULED PASSENGER SERVICES, AND MEDICAL EMERGENCY SERVICES. ALL. . OTHER FLIGHTS CAN EXPECT DELAYS OR SEVERE SERVICE DISRUPTION. . . COORDINATION OF FLIGHT APPROVALS FOR OPERATION WITHIN THE TEMPORARY. . RESTRICTED AREA WILL BE CARRIED OUT BY THE NATIONAL AIRWAYS. . CONTINGENCY COORDINATION CENTRE. NON-APPROVED AIRCRAFT WILL NOT BE. . PERMITTED TO OPERATE WITHIN THE TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA UNDER ANY. . CIRCUMSTANCES.. .. . FURTHER DETAILED INFORMATION AND CONTACT DETAILS FOR THE NACCC WILL. . BE MADE AVAILABLE 24 HOURS IN ADVANCE OF CONFIRMED INDUSTRIAL ACTION.. . FROM 03 162304 TO 03 210500. .. . C780/02 REVIEW C778/02. . POTENTIAL INDUSTRIAL ACTION. .. . FURTHER TO ADVICE PROVIDED IN NOTAM C773/02 IN REGARD TO POTENTIAL. . INDUSTRIAL ACTION BY THE AUSTRALIAN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL UNION ON. . THURSDAY 21ST MARCH 2002.AFTER FURTHER ASSESSMENT OF THE IMPACT OF. . POTENTIAL INDUSTRIAL ACTION IN THE BRISBANE FIR, IT IS LIKELY THAT. . SERVICES WITHIN THE DARWIN, TINDAL, TOWNSVILLE AND CAIRNS TERMINAL. . UNITS WILL BE LARGELY UNAFFECTED. . .. . IT IS ALSO LIKELY THAT THE CLASS D AIRSPACE ASSOCIATED WITH TAMWORTH,. . COFFS HARBOUR, MAROOCHYDORE, ROCKHAMPTON, MACKAY AND HAMILTON ISLAND. . WILL REMAIN AS CONTROLLED AIRSPACE AND LOCAL FLIGHTS WILL BE. . UNAFFECTED. THE STATUS OF CLASS C AIRSPACE ABOVE THESE AERODROMES IS. . BEING EVALUATED. . .. . TRANSIT FROM THESE AERODROMES TO THE TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA WILL. . BE SUBJECT TO APPROVAL BY THE NACCC. TRANSIT FROM THESE AERODROMES TO. . CLASS G AIRSPACE WILL NOT REQUIRE APPROVAL HOWEVER PILOTS SHOULD BE. . AWARE THAT DIRECTED TRAFFIC INFORMATION SERVICES WOULD NOT BE. . AVAILABLE IN CLASS G AIRSPACE IN THE BRISBANE FIR.. .. . THE BRISBANE TERMINAL AIRSPACE WILL BECOME A TEMPORARY RESTRICTED. . AREA AND OPERATION INTO OR OUT OF THIS AREA WILL BE SUBJECT TO. . APPROVAL BY THE NACCC. ARRANGEMENTS ARE BEING ESTABLISHED FOR. . PRIORITY POLICE AND MEDICAL FLIGHTS.. .. . THE COOLANGATTA AND ARCHERFIELD CONTROL ZONES ARE AFFECTED BY THE. . POTENTIAL INDUSTRIAL ACTION. IT IS LIKELY THAT THESE ZONES WILL BE. . RECLASSIFIED AS MBZS FOR THE DURATION OF THE SERVICE OUTAGE.. .. . SYDNEY TERMINAL AIRSPACE WILL BECOME A TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA,. . AND. . OPERATION INTO OR OUT OF THIS AREA WILL BE SUBJECT TO APPROVAL BY THE. . NACCC. ARRANGEMENTS ARE BEING ESTABLISHED FOR PRIORITY POLICE AND. . MEDICAL FLIGHTS. . .. . THE BANKSTOWN AND CAMDEN CONTROL ZONES ARE AFFECTED BY THE POTENTIAL. . INDUSTRIAL ACTION. IT IS LIKELY THAT THESE ZONES WILL BE RECLASSIFIED. . AS MBZS FOR THE DURATION OF THE SERVICE OUTAGE. . .. . THE STATUS OF MILITARY RESTRICTED AIRSPACE WITHIN THE BRISBANE FIR IS. . BEING EVALUATED. . .. . FURTHER INFORMATION WILL BE PROVIDED AS AVAILABLE. PILOTS SHOULD. . ATTEMPT TO MITIGATE THE EFFECTS OF THE POTENTIAL SERVICE DISRUPTION. . BY PLANNING ACTIVITY OUTSIDE OF THE AFFECTED HOURS. . . FROM 03 162306 TO 03 210500. .. . C788/02. . POTENTIAL INDUSTRIAL ACTION. .. . THIS NOTAM PROVIDES FURTHER ADVICE ON THE POTENTIAL INDUSTRIAL ACTION. . THREATENED BY THE AUSTRALIAN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL UNION.. .. . CONTINGENCY AIRSPACE MANAGEMENT PLANS ARE BEING FINALISED. A SERIES. . OF NOTAM DETAILING THE SPECIFIC AIRSPACE MANAGEMENT ARRANGEMENTS AT. . EACH AFFECTED LOCATION ARE BEING PREPARED AND WILL BE RELEASED 24. . HOURS IN ADVANCE OF CONFIRMED ACTION. . . THE NATIONAL AIRWAYS CONTINGENCY COORDINATION COMMITTEE - NACCC - HAS. . DECIDED THAT ANY AIRSPACE RESTRICTIONS OR CHANGES WILL REMAIN IN. . PLACE FROM 0000 UTC UNTIL 0530 UTC ON THURSDAY 21ST OF MARCH. THE. . ADDITIONAL 30 MINUTES IS REQUIRED TO ENSURE SAFE RECOVERY FROM. . CONTINGENCY ARRANGEMENTS TO NORMAL ATC FUNCTION. . .. . IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT AIRCRAFT THAT DO NOT HAVE APPROVAL FROM THE. . NACCC TO OPERATE WITHIN ANY DECLARED TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREAS PLAN. . THEIR FLIGHTS TO BE CLEAR OF THE AFFECTED AREA NOT LATER THAN 0000. . UTC ON THE 21ST MARCH. IT IS ALSO ESSENTIAL FOR THE SAFETY OF. . AIRCRAFT APPROVED TO OPERATE WITHIN ANY TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AIRSPACE. . THAT NON-APPROVED AIRCRAFT DO NOT ATTEMPT TO OPERATE IN THOSE AREAS. . WITHOUT AUTHORITY. . .. . AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN CLASS G AIRSPACE AT OR AFTER 0000 UTC SHOULD BE. . AWARE THAT THEY WILL LOSE THEIR DIRECTED TRAFFIC INFORMATION SERVICE. . AND SAR ALERTING DURING THE INDUSTRIAL ACTION. ON-REQUEST FLIGHT. . INFORMATION SERVICES AND SARTIME SERVICES WILL REMAIN AVAILABLE. . THROUGH FLIGHTWATCH. . .. . A 24-HOUR TELEPHONE HOTLINE IS BEING ESTABLISHED AND WILL COMMENCE. . OPERATION ON WEDNESDAY 20TH MARCH TO PROVIDE REGULAR UPDATES ON THE. . STATUS OF THE INDUSTRIAL ACTION AND PLANS TO MITIGATE ITS EFFECT. THE. . NUMBER WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE IN A FUTURE NOTAM, AS WILL CONTACT. . DETAILS FOR THE NACCC.. .. . INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS CAN EXPECT DELAYS. APPROVALS TO OPERATE IN THE. . OCEANIC CONTINGENCY AREAS AND TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AIRSPACE MAY NOT. . BE AVAILABLE DUE TO SAFETY CONSIDERATIONS, AND THE INABILITY TO. . PROVIDE ONWARD COORDINATION TO ADJACENT STATES. INFORMATION IS BEING. . PROVIDED DIRECT TO AFFECTED INTERNATIONAL OPERATORS.. .. . C779/02 AND C780/02 REFER . .. .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">

[willflyforfood]

This is totally ridiculous, and also potentially dangerous! This can't be helping restore the publics confidence in air travel. You would think they would be intelligent to come up with a safer, and less inconvenient solution. Who will take the blame when 100s of innocent lives are splattered across the country side?? . .Not happy JAN!!!

[willflyforfood]

I did say, 'Less Inconvenient'. I am not criticising the Air Traffic Controllers! People have to, and while there is demand, people WILL fly. That IS unsafe. I did not mean to imply that the whole responsibility lies with ATC. I just dont believe that going on strike will do anyone (ATC, Airservices, Pilots, Passengers, whoever) any favours! The fact of the matter is, it is an unstable industry. Beggars can't be choosers, (and when i say that, I mean it in the sense of the 'whole aviation industry'). While passengers are still flying in Australia, we should not be blind to the fact that it is still an industry in recovery. While ATC may be taking this action to recieve what they may (or may not) be entitled to, it is damaging the publics perception of the industry. This is why I think that they need to be smart about it, and deal with it in a more professional manner. Look at the big picture...

[375ml]

willfly I appreciate how you reach these conclusions and yes it doesn't 'look good' externally. The problem is that we actually aren't asking for much at all. Our employer is taking full advantage of the position of the aviation industry to attempt to reduce our conditions of employment, and reduce those of future employees even further. It is those reductions in conditions that we find totally unacceptable. Yes we are also after a modest pay rise, just enough to compensate for the real reduction in our salaries over the past 15 odd months. Industrial action is taking place because there is no other option (except get screwed). We choose to take this action at a time of least possible inconvenience, and even for this the civil ATC professionals are deeply apologetic.

[aerocom]

By the time you get through the notam it will be Friday.

[Capcom]

375ml – Concur 100%. .. .May I add:-. .. .There are a raft of professional issues at stake here, most of which if allowed to continue or occur in the first place will impact directly on staff and the way the job is done! This will therefore impact on those who rely on our services everyday!. . . .Surely action now to address these issues is prudent considering what the stakes are for the Entire industry in the future!. . . .If an accident were to occur due one of the system processes below not functioning properly?. .. .(Operationally pertinent issues). .- Internal review Mechanism (Rarely involves our representatives!). .- Technological Change. .- Change Management. .- Limitation of duty hours (Fatigue an issue!). .- Console Breaks (Fatigue an Issue!). .- Review of Roster Establishment Formula (Fatigue an Issue!). .- Rostered Refresher training. .- On the Job Training Instructor. .. .It might sound like a clique! It is not:-. . We have little option but to seek action to avoid disaster in the future!! . .. .Unless you have experienced the relationship between AsA and its staff, it is hard to perceive why we would not trust them to do the right thing without it enshrined in Ink in the CA. That’s basically what they want! . .We have found through unfortunate experience that most things are better off “SAID in INK” to avoid the inevitable “dust up” over interpretation of or the existence of agreed procedure!. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .We do our level best day in day out (Those days are often longer and with less relief of late!) to keep the punters moving, and therefore you folks doing what you do best! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .We would not take this action without solid grounds for doing so! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[375ml]

From <a href="http://www.airc.gov.au/" target="_blank">AIRC</a> Commissioner Deegan's ruling last week:. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">...that those unions and Airservices Australia recommence genuine negotiations to attempt to reach agreement on those matters which are preventing the making of a new certified agreement.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I put that Airservices has, in fact, shown contempt of the AIRC by the following quote from <a href="http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/03/19/1015909940659.html" target="_blank">The Age</a>:. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">While ASA had no plans to offer any new deals to workers at today's negotiations, Mr Dudley said hopefully the union would come back to the bargaining table with some alternatives </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Mr Dudley I can only hope for your sake The Age has twisted your words as it sure as hell sounds like the ASA negotiators are entering discussions with hands tied and no intent to participate in genuine negotiations. Like they have from the beginning. What a complete waste of everybody's time.

[Freedom7]

Willfly, you are missing the point .The real point is "PROFESSIONAL ISSUES". . .. . [QUOTE] . .This is why I think that they need to be smart about it, and deal with it in a more professional manner. Look at the big picture.. .. .Please expand on your "big picture".. .. .Capcom and 375ml explain in detail. Read it with wisdom. . .. .What we are doing IS dealing with it in a professinal manner. The integrity of "unstable industry" is at stake. Yours and mine. We do not enjoy what has taken place but there is no option.. .. .Your options on Thursday are few:. .. .1/ Place trust in the "Comedy Club".. .2/ Risk high speed metal welding.. .3/ DO NOT FLY.. .4/ show support in our actions.. .. .We take this action for oursleves, you ask why?. Airservices is a business and has only one object in mind - $$$$$ - yours. You deserve the best value from it. We will continue to provide this service to you and the industry. This is the Professional integrity that must stay in place and we will acheive this.. .. .This is the point.. .. .----------------------------. ....contact departures, ou roo.

[willflyforfood]

Freedom. Despite what you may think, and medical research has debated, I do have a brain of my own. I don't expect you to accept my point of view. I hope you don't expect me to take up yours. You may not agree with my point of view, and if thats the case, its not really my problem is it? I admit, Capcom and 375ml DO raise some good points, and they may be right... I am NOT against ATC. I think you guys do a good job. I am just not a believer in striking. Of course, if it is what you feel you have to do, then you will do it. But just don't do it without sparing a thought for all the people who's already diminished perception of the aviation industry has been further tarnished by the actions you take... YES, Airservices can be a rip off at times. But as you pointed out, they ARE a business! And the main goal of any business is maximum profit. Followed by survival, and maybe growth. As a business im sure they will do whatever they can to reach those goals, even if they screw hundreds of people over! So as far as they are concerned, they are doing their jobs. . .. .Now like i said, do what you think you have to do, but remember that it does nothing good for the public's perception. I dont expect you to agree. I understand your point of view, and I hope you will understand mine. Regardless of which way you do it, I hope you get what you want. However, I also hope that you can understand that striking will do nothing for the aviation industry.

[Freedom7]

I do not dispute your inteligence capacity. I did not think it was a problem. Sorry... . .. .Diminished perception or a safe aviation industry?. .. .I do not believe in striking, but ASA forced this position, to create the results you have pointed out.. .. .Profit or Safety?. .. .And what is the public's perception when two go BANG!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .ps, there are a number gals.... for the record.. .. .-----------------------------. ....contact departures, ou roo.. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 05:32: Message edited by: Freedom7 ]</small>

[borg]

What should be a simple equation:. .. .The ATC guys and gals provide great service which they are paid reasonably for. . .. .Aviation companies pay for this service through reasonable fees and charges.. .. .The public pays for this service through the purchase of tickets and freight services.. .. .If the public wants a safe healthy aviation industry they must be prepared to pay for it !. .. .It bugs me when members of the public complain about the price of airfares when IMHO they are paying far to less for them.. .. .If the public paid realistic amounts for airfares ie: say $400-$500 BNE-SYD-BNE instead of say $179. .maybe we would all be better off.. .. .That is ATC,Engineers etc would be paid properly and you may not have the ATC crews having to fight to hang onto conditions.. .. ........in a perfect world I suppose.

[Freedom7]

In the not so perfect world..... .. .September 11, Ansett crisis, airfare still $179.. .. .AirServices still made a profit, sorry the stake holders, yes yes, HOWARD PTY.LTD. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .Some wonder why five Unions are involved.. .. .-----------------------------. ....contact departures, ou roo.

[DownUnder111]

Just a quick note to willflyforfood,\. .. . I am not sure whether you are aware that for the last 15 months our union has been trying to negotiate a new agreement with ASA. Our needs have been to keep our conditions and get a CPI pay rise for the life of the agreement. But no, ASA wants us to give up conditions for that CPI pay rise. So what has happened in the last 14 months since our agreement ended.. .. . ASA has raked in the money every day we have gone without a payrise, and in effect we have had a QANTAS like wage freeze and our real wage has dropped. . .. .And please tell me what other option to striking/stop work meetings we had, when we have been backed into the corner as we have been.

[Freedom7]

Stand-by for National stopworks......... .. .------------------------------. ....contact departures, ou roo.

[Binoculars]

In accordance with their renowned policy of accuracy in news reporting, Southern Cross News network has been reporting all day that controllers are "striking" for a 17.5% pay increase. . .. .No doubt this sensational crap is the product of their first class investigative team, but methinks the Civil Air brass should be on to this quickly if they want to maintain any semblance of sympathy from the aviation community for the union's cause. Joe Public of course would prefer to remain unburdened by the truth so he has something to rail against.

[Kaptin M]

Get used to it Binos (and the rest of your mates), you'll find - as we did in 1989 - that Joe Public is ONLY interested in what he is fed via the 6 o'clock news or the front page of the daily rag.. .Our best successes back then were the pamphlet distributions at the airports explaining OUR side of the story to the people it directly affected - it was amazing the positive support we got from people who were inconvenienced the most!! And that was the reason the companies at the time hated it, and consequently put on extra security staff in an attempt to limit the scope of our activities.. .. .You wait - the newspapers are yet to be fed the ammunition from your employer that will say that you only work for 30 minutes at a stretch and have a break.......that you normally only have the aircraft under your control for 8-10 minutes.......that your really busy (peak) periods only last for 1 1/2 hours, twice a day. All the bs designed to make it LOOK as though you are working far less than - but getting paid FAR MORE - most other workers, while you sit in an air-conditioned office.. .. .Be prepared for the heart-rending sob story of Betty Boobs who couldn't make it to her dying pussy's bedside at Easter time (this can be extended to a one month period when required!!) because you terrible controllers were responsible for the cancellation of her flight.. .. .You NEED the media on YOUR side - get the facts out, and do it regularly and relentlessly.. .Best of Luck.. .. .BTW, with Ansett gone shouldn't you get a 33% pay decrease because of the decreased domestic workload? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 21 March 2002, 08:25: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]</small>

[Freedom7]

BINOS,. .. .The 17.5% is only a claim. Its a negotiable start point for enterprise bargaining. Be aware that ASA management have had up to 63% wage increases, pocketing bonuses, while the coalface have lived below CPI for the last 15-18 months. The mistake ASA have made is releasing this figure to the public.. .. .------------------------------. ....contact departures, ou roo.

[Binoculars]

To the public????. .. .I'm well aware of what an ambit claim is, and I don't need any reminder of the hypocrisy of those at the top of our tree when it comes to practising vs preaching, but this is the first I've heard of any 17.5% claim. If this is true it seems SC news network is better informed than I am. I would also venture to suggest that if it is true, ASA knew exactly what they were doing in releasing it, as it would be universally perceived as an act of greed, and rightly so. . .. .Say it ain't so, Civil Air, and if it is, why wasn't I told?. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[PFM]

Good luck Binos.. .. .Lets hope the ASA dont get Ronald Raegan's advisors out of retirement.... .. .Just dont let us "swap paint" with other operators. Fair deal? We promise not to ask for track shortening.