Ansett Cadets
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Ansett Cadets
Have to feel sorry for the Ansett Cadets.They spend over One Hundred thousand dollars on AN approved trainnng and are now without a job,most have little command time and only about 50 hours twin IFR command. A few have got interviews with Qantas,most of those were rejected at the first round of interviews.
Two Points 1. Cadet programs down through the decades in OZ have seemed to end in tears for various reasons 2. Why have so many cadets who were deemed acceptable to AN failed to make the cut with Qantas, haven't achieved the required number of accidents yet?
Two Points 1. Cadet programs down through the decades in OZ have seemed to end in tears for various reasons 2. Why have so many cadets who were deemed acceptable to AN failed to make the cut with Qantas, haven't achieved the required number of accidents yet?
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Why do you say that, they knew the go, just cause they shelled out 100 g's that dosent mean that every one should feel sorry for them. They have little ME command but thats the risk they took. I have a decent amount of ME command time and thats not getting me a look in at the moment.
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The point is they didn't "know the go".Not knowing the industry requirements outside of the Ansett world ment that unless everything went perfectly they would be essentially unqualified for any GA job. I bet that was never dissussed at the intial interviews with AN.
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The AN cadets were very good flyers. Hard pill for some people to swallow but they were. I spent many an hour with them and we had a good time. Yes they have little multi command time but if I was in a position to give them a job I would. They are fellow pilots like the rest of us and if you do not think of them that way then pity you! 
To understand why the cadets have have been remarkably unsuccessful outside the AN womb, one must only look at their surnames. The criteria used to "select" these people was
1) Do you have $100K
2) Do you have a parent amongst AN flight crew.
Given the difficulty their sponsors are now having finding work, I would suggest the cadets will now become nothing more than well qualified, heavily debt laden cab drivers.
Feel sorry for them, no - they tried to leap frog the system and it has failed spectacularly.
1) Do you have $100K
2) Do you have a parent amongst AN flight crew.
Given the difficulty their sponsors are now having finding work, I would suggest the cadets will now become nothing more than well qualified, heavily debt laden cab drivers.
Feel sorry for them, no - they tried to leap frog the system and it has failed spectacularly.
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Feel sorry for the cadets? ABSOLUTELY NOT! If your going to feel sorry for them what about the thousands of other pilots who actually paid for their training themselves and have worked hard for years to get the qualifications and experience to get where they want to be.
I do however encourage them to get off their backsides and get out there and find a job. If they really want to be pilots that will probably mean GA, and I dont mean the RFDS, I mean the real GA where your overworked and underpaid.
Good luck to you all but be prepared, its not that good out there, you have smile and get kicked in the guts at the same time!
I do however encourage them to get off their backsides and get out there and find a job. If they really want to be pilots that will probably mean GA, and I dont mean the RFDS, I mean the real GA where your overworked and underpaid.
Good luck to you all but be prepared, its not that good out there, you have smile and get kicked in the guts at the same time!
Karunch there might be a few that are in that 'selection' criteria you talk of but there are quite a few others that aren't. Whats the difference between AN cadets and QF cadets, Qantas is still operating...do you feel the same about QF cadets Karunch?
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Some interesting lines of thought floating round here, It's just a pity that most aren't rational.
What is the logic behind assuming that everyone that did their training the "conventional way" paid for it themselves, and that no-one that did the AN course is up to their eyeballs in debt.
The accusations that the cadets somehow circumvented what apparently is a compulsory rite of passage according to some, smacks of elitism at its finest.
Soup Nazi, are you honestly suggesting that after the events of the last few months, AN cadets dont know what it feels like to be kicked in the guts???!!!!
Most people, including those posting above, would use whatever resources they have available to place themselves in as optimum a position as possible when it comes to things like setting up your career. It just so happened that those who did cadetships had the resources available to allow them to do so.
Most aspiring pilots, if given such an opportunity (as it was presented then) through available funds, would probably grab a cadetship, with is apparent promise of career security, with both arms, myself included. The fact back then was that it indeed was out of the reach of most of us, it would have been nice if it wasn't, but thats life. The fact now is that many ex-cadets are out of work, and are in a precarious position. It would be nice if that wasn't the case, but again, thats life.
Cut the vitriol and venom, there's no point in further kicking someone when their down, so what are you all trying to acheive?
A bit of acceptance for those who merely tried to make the most of what they had, is due.
Am I a cadet? No
Was I ever a cadet? No
Have I ever had any association with any such program? No
Have I been through all the usual sh!t GA has to offer? Yes
Am I sick of hearing all the usual "in the old days we bred 'em tough, I worked harder than any of these guys" crap? Yes
Get over it.
What is the logic behind assuming that everyone that did their training the "conventional way" paid for it themselves, and that no-one that did the AN course is up to their eyeballs in debt.
The accusations that the cadets somehow circumvented what apparently is a compulsory rite of passage according to some, smacks of elitism at its finest.
Soup Nazi, are you honestly suggesting that after the events of the last few months, AN cadets dont know what it feels like to be kicked in the guts???!!!!
Most people, including those posting above, would use whatever resources they have available to place themselves in as optimum a position as possible when it comes to things like setting up your career. It just so happened that those who did cadetships had the resources available to allow them to do so.
Most aspiring pilots, if given such an opportunity (as it was presented then) through available funds, would probably grab a cadetship, with is apparent promise of career security, with both arms, myself included. The fact back then was that it indeed was out of the reach of most of us, it would have been nice if it wasn't, but thats life. The fact now is that many ex-cadets are out of work, and are in a precarious position. It would be nice if that wasn't the case, but again, thats life.
Cut the vitriol and venom, there's no point in further kicking someone when their down, so what are you all trying to acheive?
A bit of acceptance for those who merely tried to make the most of what they had, is due.
Am I a cadet? No
Was I ever a cadet? No
Have I ever had any association with any such program? No
Have I been through all the usual sh!t GA has to offer? Yes
Am I sick of hearing all the usual "in the old days we bred 'em tough, I worked harder than any of these guys" crap? Yes
Get over it.
Lackov, most of the cadets will remain out of work because they have no idea of the aviation industry that exists below airline level. They are probably out looking for light twin jobs on G4's at Bankstown as we speak. This detachment from reality makes them a burden to any smaller employer, and a thorough pain to work with (even within the sponsor airline).
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And you know this because......???
It's still a very pre-judgemental attitude to take. The cadets I have known by and large did not exhibit such qualities, sure there are exceptions, but you can't tell me GA is totally devoid of d!ckheads?
Maybe it is more than just them that need a reality check??
It's still a very pre-judgemental attitude to take. The cadets I have known by and large did not exhibit such qualities, sure there are exceptions, but you can't tell me GA is totally devoid of d!ckheads?
Maybe it is more than just them that need a reality check??
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A few years ago I flew with some of the AN cadets, and found most fun and a pleasure to work with. As with any group of people, there are going to be some bad apples, but a couple of the biggest idiots (a minority) I flew with were people who could only bag the cadets and rave on for the whole time you flew with them about how much better aviators they were. Pity they couldn't display that through actions.
The majority of the cadets I met were self funded, and while at times naturally I was envious of their career path, if I had the choice I would have taken the same option as them.
Good luck not just to the cadets, but to all those unemployed at the moment.
The majority of the cadets I met were self funded, and while at times naturally I was envious of their career path, if I had the choice I would have taken the same option as them.
Good luck not just to the cadets, but to all those unemployed at the moment.
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Karunch, do you really believe you are superior to an AN cadet because you didn't "leap frog" the system? Think about this; I reckon and I think you'd agree a whole lot of people out there have done it tougher than you. Worked harder to save for each training hour, moved further from home, left partners and worked in worse conditions. Do you consider yourself a cheat compared to them, because you didn't do it as tough? I bet you don't. Nor should you.
As lackov states, most aspiring pilots grab every opportunity available to them given their current financial and personal situation. I guess you didn't do this. You could have, but instead left your millions in a low-interest bank account and went straight to the Northern Territory, lived in some god-forsaken community and worked for free until you'd gained your right of passage. The proper way.
This total lack of unity within aviation is destructive. Judging pilots based on "how tough they did it" is a waste of time for everyone. I doubt there is a pilot out there who hasn't made some sort of sacrafice. Some have, without doubt, done it tougher than others, but that doesn't reflect their dedication, professionalism or ability. If being a good pilot was as easy as selling everything and driving to the NT in an unreliable car, then life would be simpler, not harder.
GA is more infected with self-serving people like Karunch punishing others who have made less sacrafices than themselves, than the airlines are infected with self-righteous cadets.
One last thing. Back up your huge generalisations with fact. For someone who hates cadets, you seem to know their every move and future prediction.
As lackov states, most aspiring pilots grab every opportunity available to them given their current financial and personal situation. I guess you didn't do this. You could have, but instead left your millions in a low-interest bank account and went straight to the Northern Territory, lived in some god-forsaken community and worked for free until you'd gained your right of passage. The proper way.
This total lack of unity within aviation is destructive. Judging pilots based on "how tough they did it" is a waste of time for everyone. I doubt there is a pilot out there who hasn't made some sort of sacrafice. Some have, without doubt, done it tougher than others, but that doesn't reflect their dedication, professionalism or ability. If being a good pilot was as easy as selling everything and driving to the NT in an unreliable car, then life would be simpler, not harder.
GA is more infected with self-serving people like Karunch punishing others who have made less sacrafices than themselves, than the airlines are infected with self-righteous cadets.
One last thing. Back up your huge generalisations with fact. For someone who hates cadets, you seem to know their every move and future prediction.
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At Last......the full circle!!! Dad's money can't buy you happiness and a job, over the rest of us cattle class, who've had to sit on our hands and wait for the dad's boys money tree to wilter. I remember when a bloke washed airplanes, and did sh@t jobs to earn his stripes. I don't have a problem with any of the Ansett Casualties, it is a terrible tragedy to Oz Aviation, but I think you are really batting for the other side if you feel sorry for the Cadets over those who earned their keep the hard way. (In the bush, earning relatively nothing, over dad's college grads)
Stepping down off the soap box!!
Stepping down off the soap box!!
Nunc est bibendum
Feel better after your rant Dash?
Most of the QF cadets to have gone through the scheme at some stage in the last 12 years or so have been self funded.
Whilst I know this thread is about AN cadets, the anti cadet sentiment is the same no matter which company you are talking about.
A mate of mine was once on a flight deck and the other S/O was paying out on cadets not realising that my buddy was. He shut him up with the simple question 'So did you apply?'.
It is envy writ aviation style, nothing more and nothing less.
Build a bridge and get over it because one day you may end up sitting beside a cadet for up to 8 hours at a time.
Have a nice day.
Most of the QF cadets to have gone through the scheme at some stage in the last 12 years or so have been self funded.
Whilst I know this thread is about AN cadets, the anti cadet sentiment is the same no matter which company you are talking about.
A mate of mine was once on a flight deck and the other S/O was paying out on cadets not realising that my buddy was. He shut him up with the simple question 'So did you apply?'.
It is envy writ aviation style, nothing more and nothing less.
Build a bridge and get over it because one day you may end up sitting beside a cadet for up to 8 hours at a time.
Have a nice day.
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Dunno why people get so raggy about the cadet system, be it Qantas or Ansett. Had I been able to afford it< I would have. But I couldn't, and now I fly night freight, and have earned every dollar and hour myself. (Not dad.) Don't begrudge the others, they just did it differently. At the end of the day, the real question is "Can you do the job". I am eternally grateful to the man who thought I could and gave me the opportunity to show it. And he's an 89er.
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What is this problem some people have with acceptig help from their parents?? I'm sure most of you ,if your son or daughter came to you and said "Dad (or Mum) I want to be a pilot and you had access to 100k or could help in any way possible to make their path a little easier than your own, you would. Why is it nessecary to struggle on no money in the desert for years to prove your worth especialy if you had that experience youself (a previous post mentioned having a family member in Ansett was a good way to get in) I have always thought that being a parent was about passing on the knowledge you gain in order for the child to benifit. Bowling about the country in a beat up car and flying around the desert in a 210 may be character building It may be a rite of passage but in the long term its about as relavent as all those other daft things you do when your young.(or not so young)It may or may not make you a better pilot but it is not a mandatory requirement. Wouldnt we all like the world to be perfect and be able to have a go at our careers with no money/prospects/ age limitations etc, worries. The fact that now the Ansett cadets have all these problems just like so many others is not cause for rejoicing.In fact it makes it just that much harder for everyone.
And while were at it some of us dont view the Northern Territory as "the world beyond" some of us who have done our time in the desert etc actualy choose to live here. Beats the hell out of peak hour and crap weather in a southern city any day.
Mrs Wheelbarrow- an innocent bystander
And while were at it some of us dont view the Northern Territory as "the world beyond" some of us who have done our time in the desert etc actualy choose to live here. Beats the hell out of peak hour and crap weather in a southern city any day.
Mrs Wheelbarrow- an innocent bystander
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Hey guys, very interesting topic.
I am a cadet, and proud of it.
I have never had a family member work for Ansett or any associated airlines.
I am out of work and suffering like many others.
It doesn't matter where you come from in aviation, the fact is we all perform the same job, are subject to the same performance criteria, and earn the same money. And when it all comes crashing down, we hurt just the same.
Please understand that yes, I spent $100K. Yes, my parents helped me out. No, I did not spend years up north in a bugsmasher, but I did spend a few months. And you know what...in terms of relevance to flying a jet, what I learnt in GA amounted to nothing. What I did learn was plenty about myself and the people I would be operating with, which is nice to know, but is it mandatory to do the job? At the end of the day, my recurrents were more than satisfactory. So why do some people persist in thinking I have no place in an airline?
I can assure you that those who flew with me never considered me a liability. I can also assure you that I have done other things in life that would shame many of you "tough men" of aviation. So please do not judge people purely on their background. I suggest using merit.
Consider a doctor. Some went to private school, were then funded to board at a prestigious college at Melbourne Uni, and drove brand new cars purchased by their parents. Others went to a state school, rented cheap apartments, and caught the train to Uni. In the end, both types have to reach a standard to practice, as they do in aviation. And yet in medicine does one point the finger at the other and say you are not as capable as I because you didn't do it the hard way. I don't think so. It would be unprofessional to do so.
Or consider someone in the airforce. They never paid for training. They never scrounged for money. They never had nothing to eat. So have they not "done the hard yards" as well? Or is it OK if the taxpayer pays for your career, so long as your parents don't!?
I am pleased that so many have rebutted the assertions made on this thread. I am 30 years old. I have put all of my time, effort, energy and what little money I had into aviation. With so many people out of work, what was my strength has become my greatest burden...I have plenty of jet, turbine and multi FO experience, plenty of single command time, but no multi command. Is belting around in a 310 or Chieftan really going to make me a better pilot, and make me better prepared for the airlines a second time around? Or will it merely soothe the prejudices carried by some who will not accept the world has changed, and will continue to change, for ever and ever.
To all those who have lost their jobs in aviation, I wish as much for you as I do myself. We currently inhabit the wrong quadrant in the cirle of life, but as it turns lets hope that so too will our fortunes swing and return us to the air.
Thankyou.
Flying Tiger.
Ansett Cadet and Proud.
But no different to any other pilot.
I am a cadet, and proud of it.
I have never had a family member work for Ansett or any associated airlines.
I am out of work and suffering like many others.
It doesn't matter where you come from in aviation, the fact is we all perform the same job, are subject to the same performance criteria, and earn the same money. And when it all comes crashing down, we hurt just the same.
Please understand that yes, I spent $100K. Yes, my parents helped me out. No, I did not spend years up north in a bugsmasher, but I did spend a few months. And you know what...in terms of relevance to flying a jet, what I learnt in GA amounted to nothing. What I did learn was plenty about myself and the people I would be operating with, which is nice to know, but is it mandatory to do the job? At the end of the day, my recurrents were more than satisfactory. So why do some people persist in thinking I have no place in an airline?
I can assure you that those who flew with me never considered me a liability. I can also assure you that I have done other things in life that would shame many of you "tough men" of aviation. So please do not judge people purely on their background. I suggest using merit.
Consider a doctor. Some went to private school, were then funded to board at a prestigious college at Melbourne Uni, and drove brand new cars purchased by their parents. Others went to a state school, rented cheap apartments, and caught the train to Uni. In the end, both types have to reach a standard to practice, as they do in aviation. And yet in medicine does one point the finger at the other and say you are not as capable as I because you didn't do it the hard way. I don't think so. It would be unprofessional to do so.
Or consider someone in the airforce. They never paid for training. They never scrounged for money. They never had nothing to eat. So have they not "done the hard yards" as well? Or is it OK if the taxpayer pays for your career, so long as your parents don't!?
I am pleased that so many have rebutted the assertions made on this thread. I am 30 years old. I have put all of my time, effort, energy and what little money I had into aviation. With so many people out of work, what was my strength has become my greatest burden...I have plenty of jet, turbine and multi FO experience, plenty of single command time, but no multi command. Is belting around in a 310 or Chieftan really going to make me a better pilot, and make me better prepared for the airlines a second time around? Or will it merely soothe the prejudices carried by some who will not accept the world has changed, and will continue to change, for ever and ever.
To all those who have lost their jobs in aviation, I wish as much for you as I do myself. We currently inhabit the wrong quadrant in the cirle of life, but as it turns lets hope that so too will our fortunes swing and return us to the air.
Thankyou.
Flying Tiger.
Ansett Cadet and Proud.
But no different to any other pilot.
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Flying Tiger, how right you are.
Having worked in the airline and now back pushing a turbo prop single pilot around the bush at night is a big culture shock, the habits and procedures learnt in the airline will be the one thing that will keep me safe. The same can't be said for the GA driver going into an airline, flying around in a baron will not put you in good stead for the airline, all it does is weed out the hopefuls from the serious contenders. If you really want to learn to operate in an airline enviroment, you will need to get in to an airline and have them put you through there training program, this will take up to 5 months if not more. the AN cadets not only trained to the licence requirement but did significant generic 737 and two crew training along with the outward bound course and additional training not normally completed at your local aeroclub.
These guys are very capable pilots and deserved better than they got.
Good luck Flying Tiger.
Having worked in the airline and now back pushing a turbo prop single pilot around the bush at night is a big culture shock, the habits and procedures learnt in the airline will be the one thing that will keep me safe. The same can't be said for the GA driver going into an airline, flying around in a baron will not put you in good stead for the airline, all it does is weed out the hopefuls from the serious contenders. If you really want to learn to operate in an airline enviroment, you will need to get in to an airline and have them put you through there training program, this will take up to 5 months if not more. the AN cadets not only trained to the licence requirement but did significant generic 737 and two crew training along with the outward bound course and additional training not normally completed at your local aeroclub.
These guys are very capable pilots and deserved better than they got.
Good luck Flying Tiger.
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To any kids out there who after reading the last two posts are a little disheartened,don`t be.Your light multi engine time will put you in very good stead for the rest of your career.The trials and tribulations,every day problem solving,personable skills in a difficult and cut throat environment are invaluable-i`m sure you fly good instrumets too.
Failure rate at intake a meagre 3% and for initial command about 5%.You have been the backbone of airline pilot recruitment and I hope this continues.
Stay ambitious,focused & humble-good luck.
Nothing against cadets but probably shouldn`t belittle a well proven pilot stream.
Failure rate at intake a meagre 3% and for initial command about 5%.You have been the backbone of airline pilot recruitment and I hope this continues.
Stay ambitious,focused & humble-good luck.
Nothing against cadets but probably shouldn`t belittle a well proven pilot stream.