Air New Zealand
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: australia
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HEY MR.ALPHA . .. .I can't fully understand how you feel, because I am still one of those , busting a gut in the north ,trying to build up my experience, to eventually get to where you have been.. .I must say though ,if I was to eventually get there , then I would probably be as angry as you are , and probably more.... .. .BUT I don't think I would like to see fellow aviators who have worked just as hard as I have being thrown on the scrap heap, like used toilet paper....... NO NO MR.ALPHA . .. .Sit back have a look at your situation and don't wish that on somebody else.. .Maybe the industry will need people like you to help the industry not to destroy it.
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
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Alpha 41. .. .Listen carefully to safeskiesabove and I would urge you also to read or reread Ernie Ganns story it just might give you a bit of perspective in the matter of real life and aviation.. .. .It won't necessarily relieve the hurt but it should go a long way to an understanding how puny our efforts in the big scheme of things.. .. .Doesn't mean give up, just don't expect or be surprised if everything does not go exactly as you would like.
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Goodonya A41 - that's how I feel.. .. .If ANZ go under, the Kiwis can just join the application queue at VB and QF, like the rest of us. It would mean more expansion for the 2 Aussie airlines. Nothing wrong with a bit of competition, 'ey?
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Gaunty, you said:. .. ."The seniority system may not be perfect but in the last 100 or so years of airline ops they haven't been able to work out any other more succesful method not subject to patronage and corruption.". .. .I disagree. Aside from the long bow drawn regarding timeline, seniority is an anacranism which airlines persist with under union duress. Why is it that when QF are employing qualified 747, 767 and 737 drivers, that they place them as 744 and 767 s/o's?. .. .Seniority. . .. .Do you think management would choose to train between 3 and 6 people when they can train none? Thats a hard dollar cash amount of between $90,000 and $180,000 PER vacancy. Does this serve the long term viability of the company?. .. .The issue of transparency was somewhat valid when we did not have objective systems in place which could arbitrate promotional decisions based on hard data. How hard is this now, easy. Today, 99.9% of employees are promoted on merit, just ask your wife/ friends/family neighbours how they earned their last payrise, was it because they happened to clock up another year, or because they were recognised as being deserved of it?. .. .Senior Captains are trapped by seniority. Would we all not like to try the grass over the fence? What stops us?, seniority, if not at our airline, at the others. It prevents the good pilots from migrating to better airlines. .. .Progressive airlines have either embraced, or are embracing more modern methods of selection and promotion for pilots, both externally and internally. . .. .At the end of the day, in this new airline world of cut throat price competition, can pilot groups afford to force large non salaried financial penalties on their employers and not expect wage pressures in return? How else will carriers maintain competitivess.. .. .Incidentally, I would be eager for a response to my second question.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: New Zealand
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LJ. .Senority is the only way to keep personalities out of denying people the chance of promotion and we know that there are certain management that would use it (no senority) againist us. Especially in contract negotiations/promotions.. .. .A way around it is to have a fleet pay system. eg; QF, put all captains on 180k, F/o's on 120k, s/o 80k regardless of type.. .Promotion to command on senority, and allow one change of type ever 8yrs. . .. .This way everyone could get onto the type that they like/suits there lifestyle and everyone is getting the same dosh, the company would save a fortune in training costs as most people only move onto larger type for the cash.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"Live by the sword - die by the sword", Longjohn!. .You benefitted by, . . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">trying the grass on the other side of the femce</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">about 12 years ago, when Ansett gave YOU a job at the expense of another pilot MORE QUALIFIED THAN YOU to hold it, hence costing Ansett a helluva lot more to train YOU.. .You sure as hell didn't use that argument then, did you!. .. .How airlines spend their money wrt who goes on to which type has got us ALL perplexed. Obviously accountants at the various airlines have figured out some way of saving the companies money by spending MORE of it! . .It's blatantly obvious to many that common sense and logic is NOT a part of today's accounting and management practices at many airlines.. .. .The proof of my statement is in the number of them (airlines) going down the tube - but I'm only a pilot, so what would I know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />
Evertonian
Come on people. We seriously do not want ANZ to fold! It would put too much of a strain on the Australian governments dole payments!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Australia
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Interesting to see how attitudes to seniority change depending on which side of the fence you sit.. .There are very few industries that can be compared to aviation for employee committment to their company, as can be seen by many of the posts on these forums, and one of the reasons is the seniority system. Most people I know that are lucky enough to get a start with a large airline, hope that is where they retire. . .Unfortunately, as we have seen over the years, this can go astray with the demise of a company, but up until then the workers are very loyal and will protect "their" company and its reputation to the end.. .Do you think this would happen without seniority?. .As for the argument that it costs money to train new people when qualified people are available, I am sure it would cost a lot more to train senior pilots leaving to see if the grass is greener, if no seniority was in place.. .Seniority also protects airlines when there are shortages of pilots, as that becomes the perfect opportunity to jump the fence.. .I am sure everyone at Ansett would have been very happy with their seniority while the airline was still operating, and outsiders from Qantas not being able to jump in and take commands on Ansett aircraft just because they have experience on type.. .One of the other occupations I can think of where workers normally stayed a long time was the police force. And you would only have to live in NSW to know what a debacle giving promotions not based on seniority has caused there! The entire police force became a joke, with arse kissers getting promotions over those that just went to work and did their job. Needless to say loyalty to the job went out the window.. .It is part of the system that when you join an airline, you start at the bottom of the list, do your job well, and you get to move up. No arse kissing required and I for one hope it stays that way.
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alpha 41 and actually every one like you.. .. .l dont normally reply, just sit back and read. But l am sick of comments like yours, l'm am sure what you and your family, your friends have gone through has been very, very difficult. As a "grown up" , (which l dont think you are being)l would not wish what has happened to so many people in aviation lately, to happen to any one. . .. .So instead of acting like little kids, maybe we should all look at whats happened lately, count our thanks and all do our best to make the industry pick up again.. .. .l think l talk for most kiwi pilots, we are all at the coal face working. We have things that are pi*sing us off at the moment but getting angry with "air nz aircraft, and wihing they were not here" is just petty. l wish Qantas was not in New Zealand, but there is not much l can do. Except smile and make each day at work good and get along with fellow pilots....not act like toddlers.
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aplha 41 . .l to have been affected by ansett's colapse, but not as much as you and your countrymen. l think you will find that most kiwi pilots do think that air nz failed and also both the kiwi and aussie governments. 19 suidides is devastating.. .. .But the point l wanted to get across was that "l" didnt cause it niether did other kiwi pilots like me, so why hate us, that is what is childish. Why would you want other people to go through what you are going through, for revenge, because that is childish.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
A41, you are using the argument that Air New Zealand blocked SQ from taking control of Ansett (and in your mind that would have prevented AN's collapse), however had SQ genuinely wanted control of Ansett, they had other opportunities before AND after Air New Zealand, but never took the option. I think all of you (Ansett employees) realised just how deeply AN was in the poo and thought that SQ had pockets deep enough to pour the bucket loads of $$$'s required to get you out. It was a dream floated often across the pages here, and no doubt one that built up false hope in the minds of many Ansett employees ("SQ is going to take us over"......"Thank heavens, because we NEED them").. .The realisation (of Ansett's desperate position) was there - but so was the denial (that Ansett was past the PNR of financial rescue).. .. .It's just possible that Air New Zealand's current situation has been caused BECAUSE of its brief ownership of Ansett, and the vast amounts that Ansett LOST and COST Air N.Z.. .If SQ had held the reins (of AN) instead of ANZ, would you feel as bitter toward the Singaporeans, A41? Rest assured SQ would not have tried to plug the gaping financial holes that were causing the ship to sink.. .. .You need to look further back - before Air Sheep - to expose the real villains responsible for Ansett's ultimate demise. Vent your wrath on the Abeles, Murdoch and Eddington players, perhaps especially the latter, who did a spectacular job of "window dressing" Ansett (remember that unbelievable profit that Ansett suddenly returned under his "management"?) just prior to its sale - and his timely exit.. .Certainly Air New Zealand rushed in ("Fools rush in...") displaying that Kiwi "little man" trait of wanting to hold the power over the big guy - but in their haste they rushed the due diligence part. And it certainly cost them, then and now - all 3 million people and 100 million sheep!. .. .The suicides are tough - but more on the people left behind who STILL have to cope with the problems. Suicide is the easy way out of a difficult situation, but it only creates MORE HARDSHIP for those left behind - I'll stop short of saying it's the coward's way out!
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Godzone
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A41. .. .Unfortunately, this is one of the situations where each person must take some responsibility for what went on. It is very easy to sit there and blame ANZ for the collapse because, unfortunately, they were the ones left holding the reins when Ansett collapsed.. .. .CASA must take some of the blame for grounding the Ansett fleet during the busiest holiday times (Christmas and Easter) for "safety reasons" which had been known about for a considerable time previously (I think you would know more about that than us A41). .. .The Australian government must also take some of the blame for "forcing" ANZ to purchase complete control of Ansett in order to gain access rights into Australia - when we both are supposed to be operating under an open skies transtasman agreement.. .. .A41 If we all take your side then Qantas should not be allowed to operate in NZ with leased aircraft - using AWAS crew and aircraft. That would certainly create more jobs for NZ pilots.. .. .Would you be just as vitriolic if it had been another Australian Airline in ownership of Ansett when it collapsed?. .What about the suicides that occurred in NZ after the collapse of Qantas New Zealand, formerly.... .. .ANSETT NEW ZEALAND. .. .You have our sympathy, as do all the other employees/workers of the collapsed airlines, but expecting or hoping/wanting others to end up in the same situation is ridiculous.. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 01:40: Message edited by: clutchcargo ]</small>
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Ease up fellas. I have friends working for Air NZ and I don't want to see them in Bondi....er I mean in the dole queue.. .. .Let's not wish ill on the rank & file, they had nought to do with the machinations on high in the NZ flag carrier.. .. .As I have said before in other threads, good luck to all Ansett personnel, I hope you all land on your feet and can look back with fondness on your Ansett years and that if you harbour bitterness, it fades with time.. .. .Clear skies ahead for all of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Alpha 41. .. .Nobody doubts that you feel strongly about certain matters, others are entitled to the same but none of you are entitled to get personal or vindictive about global and local events over which few of us had any direct personal control.. .. .You need to comtemplate the 10 Thingies for a little while so I am going to give you a week of posting free time to do so.. .. .Some of the rest of you are getting equally close.
