Shopping in Osaka
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting thread, if only because I’ve learned that those fearless fighters for the truth, Australian journalists, take time to consider whether a story will be to the public good before running with it… (!) (Good one, Brenda - not.)
Interesting too the way employers can be selective in their indignation re an employee’s past. In this case, the gentleman involved had a clear-cut history long before he first joined asterisk airlines. A quick call to Air Force Records asking for the circumstances surrounding his rather untimely discharge from the RAAF should disclose his penchant for moving other people’s televisions (and other items) to rooms not theirs. 1975-6 would be a good starting point.
Interesting also to see reference to another hero who left asterisk airlines a year or two ago after his taking away everything not nailed down could no longer be ignored. Even more interesting would be to inquire where said hero is today and who he works for. I’ve heard a whisper he flys Mr Boeing’s smallest product.
Interesting times ahead….
Interesting too the way employers can be selective in their indignation re an employee’s past. In this case, the gentleman involved had a clear-cut history long before he first joined asterisk airlines. A quick call to Air Force Records asking for the circumstances surrounding his rather untimely discharge from the RAAF should disclose his penchant for moving other people’s televisions (and other items) to rooms not theirs. 1975-6 would be a good starting point.
Interesting also to see reference to another hero who left asterisk airlines a year or two ago after his taking away everything not nailed down could no longer be ignored. Even more interesting would be to inquire where said hero is today and who he works for. I’ve heard a whisper he flys Mr Boeing’s smallest product.
Interesting times ahead….
Primitive Aviator
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: australia
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It will be interesting to see how the employer handles this one. Normally under the current employment laws it is necessary to give and record warnings, three I think, before a dismissal can take place. This would apply in disciplinary and administrative matters, staff abuse and the like. A serious criminal matter surely warrants instant dismissal.
If the employer knew about his past record then they have a lot to answer for. On the other hand if they did not know then he must have made a false declaration on his employment application and again on his medical renewal form; matters giving sufficient cause for dismissal one would think.
If the employer knew about his past record then they have a lot to answer for. On the other hand if they did not know then he must have made a false declaration on his employment application and again on his medical renewal form; matters giving sufficient cause for dismissal one would think.
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wiley and ptero
Now that the story is apparently in the public domain, it would/should be hard for the regulator to ignore it.
Ahh Brenda dear, dont you think you would be doing your adoring readers a favour by running the story and letting them decide. But then I spose the airline concerned might get a bit narky and pull the advertising account, but then that never stopped the reptiles before or has it.
pteros right, anyway you look at it, as they say in that famous reality TV show, (which I hasten to add I never watched, but have it on good authority
) the presenter would say,
"Capt XXXXX it's time to go."
[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
Now that the story is apparently in the public domain, it would/should be hard for the regulator to ignore it.
Ahh Brenda dear, dont you think you would be doing your adoring readers a favour by running the story and letting them decide. But then I spose the airline concerned might get a bit narky and pull the advertising account, but then that never stopped the reptiles before or has it.
pteros right, anyway you look at it, as they say in that famous reality TV show, (which I hasten to add I never watched, but have it on good authority
) the presenter would say,"Capt XXXXX it's time to go."
[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
GoGirl, believe it or not, I tend to believe that most of my fellow profeesionals are respectable, trustworthy and reliable people!! For sure we all (well 99% of us) fall short in some areas of human fallibility. Fully aware of the "cull rate" during the usual, (and here, sorry folks to raise it YET AGAIN, excluding 1989 in Australia) various, selection processes for airline entry, most pilots would NOT shaft their fellow employee because of the odd misdemanour.
Yes, this chap's previous (RAAF) exploits WERE known by most of us pre-'89 - however, we ASSUMED that he had passed the required security checks. The fact that he took uneaten meals home didn't worry us - he was a young, struggling F/O with a young family...and the meals only get thrown away anyway!
The story of the car part was probably true (knowing this guy's "habits"), but none of them on their own enough to warrant going to actively place a request for further investigation wrt to seeing him sacked.
HE is the one who has linched himself with his latest, very public effort!
Yes, this chap's previous (RAAF) exploits WERE known by most of us pre-'89 - however, we ASSUMED that he had passed the required security checks. The fact that he took uneaten meals home didn't worry us - he was a young, struggling F/O with a young family...and the meals only get thrown away anyway!
The story of the car part was probably true (knowing this guy's "habits"), but none of them on their own enough to warrant going to actively place a request for further investigation wrt to seeing him sacked.
HE is the one who has linched himself with his latest, very public effort!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am genuinely curious about this, and the shock/horror implications attached to it, and I make this post in a civil way, inviting replies in kind. I have absolutely no knowledge of the person concerned in this thread and accept that he sounds like a right @rsehole, however......
What exactly is the connection between kleptomania, for example, and the ability to fly safely? There is almost an assumption here that pilots are paragons, and it seems it's this gentleman's fellow pilots who are doing most of the accusing. If O-C-B were here he would probably be saying "Let he who is without sin....."
I don't spend too much time when I fly imagining the worst possible habits of the crew in command, but if I did, and I were the worrying kind, what would I come up with that would scare me most? Let's look at the range of human peccadilloes which may give us reason for pause.
First up would be someone whose character is ruled by a religion, any religion, which would place less than full respect on life, his or his passengers. (Feminists please forgive the generic male possessive.)
Secondly, and to be realistic more likely in Australian skies, especially on domestic airlines, is any mental disability which affects the ability to make correct decisions, especially under pressure or in unusual circumstances. This doesn't mean raving loonies, it means your next door neighbour, your apparently normal friends. If we take into account the medically accepted figures for the existence of various mental problems across society, it would be sily to pretend that pilots as a group are free of them. To say psychological testing sorts them out is ludicrous. Pilots, if nothing else, are intelligent enough to know that bad psychological reports are not conducive to continued employment or reaching the age where they can pick up a large pension.
Thirdly, and most worryingly of all, are the apparently normal pilots who are having romantic or financial problems or both. I think all of us of a certain age will testify as to how easily our normal functions and decision making ability are disrupted by everyday concerns.
Things that should I be aware of them would have no effect on my faith in a pilot to carry out his duties would include his outside life as a child abuser, an obsession with driving well in excess of the speed limit, his desire to bed every F/A in his company, or the fact that he is universally despised for his arrogance. Kleptomania would come even further down the list.
On the other hand, what I may be concerned about is that there may be an irreconcilable and total breakdown in CRM because one of the crew regards the other with contempt because of a past industrial dispute.
Comments welcome.
RD
What exactly is the connection between kleptomania, for example, and the ability to fly safely? There is almost an assumption here that pilots are paragons, and it seems it's this gentleman's fellow pilots who are doing most of the accusing. If O-C-B were here he would probably be saying "Let he who is without sin....."
I don't spend too much time when I fly imagining the worst possible habits of the crew in command, but if I did, and I were the worrying kind, what would I come up with that would scare me most? Let's look at the range of human peccadilloes which may give us reason for pause.
First up would be someone whose character is ruled by a religion, any religion, which would place less than full respect on life, his or his passengers. (Feminists please forgive the generic male possessive.)
Secondly, and to be realistic more likely in Australian skies, especially on domestic airlines, is any mental disability which affects the ability to make correct decisions, especially under pressure or in unusual circumstances. This doesn't mean raving loonies, it means your next door neighbour, your apparently normal friends. If we take into account the medically accepted figures for the existence of various mental problems across society, it would be sily to pretend that pilots as a group are free of them. To say psychological testing sorts them out is ludicrous. Pilots, if nothing else, are intelligent enough to know that bad psychological reports are not conducive to continued employment or reaching the age where they can pick up a large pension.
Thirdly, and most worryingly of all, are the apparently normal pilots who are having romantic or financial problems or both. I think all of us of a certain age will testify as to how easily our normal functions and decision making ability are disrupted by everyday concerns.
Things that should I be aware of them would have no effect on my faith in a pilot to carry out his duties would include his outside life as a child abuser, an obsession with driving well in excess of the speed limit, his desire to bed every F/A in his company, or the fact that he is universally despised for his arrogance. Kleptomania would come even further down the list.
On the other hand, what I may be concerned about is that there may be an irreconcilable and total breakdown in CRM because one of the crew regards the other with contempt because of a past industrial dispute.
Comments welcome.
RD
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Singapore
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GoGirl & others ..............
Regardless of his faults (and we all have them)...I flew with him for a number of years....he is an exceptionally good operator and very competent pilot.... safety of the operation was never at stake.
I don't have all the facts as to what happened in Japan or any previous incidents and I think it is unfair to question his ability as a Captain…. Sorry guys luv him or hate him I have never seen him be anything but thoroughly professional.
From a work point of view his social skills sure do need some work……
Regardless of his faults (and we all have them)...I flew with him for a number of years....he is an exceptionally good operator and very competent pilot.... safety of the operation was never at stake.
I don't have all the facts as to what happened in Japan or any previous incidents and I think it is unfair to question his ability as a Captain…. Sorry guys luv him or hate him I have never seen him be anything but thoroughly professional.
From a work point of view his social skills sure do need some work……
PPRuNette
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: de nile...
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For a start....not ONCE did I question this Pilots ability as a pilot. I DID however, invite anyone who calls themself 'Professional' to make comment on what you would do, if you were in a situation where you had to work with him, and those who, in fact, have worked with him.
Again, according to Scooter...
So, yes, given the fact that he's got a proven record as what would seem to be a Klepto, he also seems to have a few issues when it comes to his collegues, and seems to deal with them in an 'Abusive' manner....and IMHO, that's a few too many character flaws, that given his occupation, could very well lead anywhere......
Regards
GG
Again, according to Scooter...
Couple this with a few mentioned cases of abusing staff,behaving in a petulant manner on more than one occassion and run-in's with management
Regards
GG
Join Date: May 2001
Location: The 'Y'
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys and girls,
Lets keep this here in perspective. RD2, you cannot compare someone that exceeds the speed limit or bonks F/A's to someone who is a thief. A child abuser is also a definite no no.
What if hypothetically, he went one further and committed an armed robbery? Even though he might be a great operator, he cannot and should not be in command of commercial airliner.
I agree that these issues have nothing to do with his ability to fly an aircraft perse. However, having said that a person in such a position is expected, and rightly so, to be of good character. Now I know a person of good character can be in the eye of the beholder, but we are a talking about a person who is a habitual thief.
We all have indiscretions but I guess it is where we all draw the line. When this type of behaviour occurs I think that line has well and truly been crossed. The evidence also indicates that this is not the first time he has been caught.
Lets keep this here in perspective. RD2, you cannot compare someone that exceeds the speed limit or bonks F/A's to someone who is a thief. A child abuser is also a definite no no.
What if hypothetically, he went one further and committed an armed robbery? Even though he might be a great operator, he cannot and should not be in command of commercial airliner.
I agree that these issues have nothing to do with his ability to fly an aircraft perse. However, having said that a person in such a position is expected, and rightly so, to be of good character. Now I know a person of good character can be in the eye of the beholder, but we are a talking about a person who is a habitual thief.
We all have indiscretions but I guess it is where we all draw the line. When this type of behaviour occurs I think that line has well and truly been crossed. The evidence also indicates that this is not the first time he has been caught.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HL, I suppose this is where we part company Yes, it is a matter of where we draw the line. Kleptomania, child abuse, even armed robbery are on one side of your acceptable line and on the other side of mine. C'est la vie. So we are only talking about an arbitrary line here?
RD
Yes, it is a matter of where we draw the line. Kleptomania, child abuse, even armed robbery are on one side of your acceptable line and on the other side of mine. C'est la vie. So we are only talking about an arbitrary line here?RD
Bottums Up
Well I guess we had all better hand in our resignations as I have no doubt that all of us have some foible that others will find distasteful or on the wrong side of a personal choice/line.
For my money, I can't really see that a connection can be made between kleptomania and one's ability to command an aircraft, except for the possibility of respect from the crew.
Now if this chap wasn't a hero, would there be so many people baying for his blood? Or would the general concensus be: "let's wait until he's tried and convicted, and have pity on the poor soul, he's obviously sick"?
For my money, I can't really see that a connection can be made between kleptomania and one's ability to command an aircraft, except for the possibility of respect from the crew.
Now if this chap wasn't a hero, would there be so many people baying for his blood? Or would the general concensus be: "let's wait until he's tried and convicted, and have pity on the poor soul, he's obviously sick"?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Asia
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This guy’s not the only sliiiiightly different Ansett B747 skipper.
I used to work with a hero that on a number of occasions threatened to kill himself if he didn’t get what he wanted. He expected to get a temporary basing OS out of seniority and if not, threatened to neck himself. What a poor pathetic individual.
I had no time for the dweeb even before ’89 and before I was told of his enormous strength of character.
He was caught by one of the lads giving the ferret a solo run on the couch, with the front door ajar. What an exhibitionist.
I believe he may be related to the spokesman of a certain chicken fast food franchise.
Wink Wink..
What a motley crew. They deserve every one of em.
I used to work with a hero that on a number of occasions threatened to kill himself if he didn’t get what he wanted. He expected to get a temporary basing OS out of seniority and if not, threatened to neck himself. What a poor pathetic individual.
I had no time for the dweeb even before ’89 and before I was told of his enormous strength of character.
He was caught by one of the lads giving the ferret a solo run on the couch, with the front door ajar. What an exhibitionist.
I believe he may be related to the spokesman of a certain chicken fast food franchise.
Wink Wink..
What a motley crew. They deserve every one of em.
Primitive Aviator
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: australia
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I'm with Go Girl, gaunty and Hairy Lassoo...not necessarily in that order 
But..he is a thief many times over and not of good character regardless of his abilities. He has brought disrepute to himself, his company, the profession and his country (in Japan).
I guess it is possible to rationalise anything these days. Someone mentioned child molesters. Again with the constant call to reduce the age of consent we will eventually see it legalised regardless of age.
Where do you draw the line?
How about "he is an excellent teacher, never mind about the child molesting"?
The RAAF had the right solution.
[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: pterodactyl ]
But..he is a thief many times over and not of good character regardless of his abilities. He has brought disrepute to himself, his company, the profession and his country (in Japan).
I guess it is possible to rationalise anything these days. Someone mentioned child molesters. Again with the constant call to reduce the age of consent we will eventually see it legalised regardless of age.
Where do you draw the line?
How about "he is an excellent teacher, never mind about the child molesting"?
The RAAF had the right solution.
[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: pterodactyl ]
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ptero
Game set and match.
Clarrie mate, if he wasn't a hero he wouldn't have been there in the first place.
edited for UBB dumbosity
[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
Game set and match.
Clarrie mate, if he wasn't a hero he wouldn't have been there in the first place.
edited for UBB dumbosity
[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Caloundra. Qld. Australia
Posts: 426
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GoGirl…..maybe it’s because we both come from where the sun shines all day, but, I see your point (I think ). If this guy is such a bad rrr’sed dude, why in the name of the good round wheel, didn’t someone put the clangers on him well and truly before all this came to where it is?
Whether or not he is a “Hero” “Scab” or “The Greatest Pilot since Pontius himself” is really superfluous. If the guy was ripping people off that many years ago, and all and sundry seemed to know about it, according to this thread, then, as you rightly say, by inaction on their part, they have condoned his actions. Bit like the pilot who flies the 206 with a 5000 hour since overhaul engine, but won’t say anything for fear of upsetting the upsettable, or loosing their job.
Double standards…..”Do as I think, not as is thought”
). If this guy is such a bad rrr’sed dude, why in the name of the good round wheel, didn’t someone put the clangers on him well and truly before all this came to where it is? Whether or not he is a “Hero” “Scab” or “The Greatest Pilot since Pontius himself” is really superfluous. If the guy was ripping people off that many years ago, and all and sundry seemed to know about it, according to this thread, then, as you rightly say, by inaction on their part, they have condoned his actions. Bit like the pilot who flies the 206 with a 5000 hour since overhaul engine, but won’t say anything for fear of upsetting the upsettable, or loosing their job.
Double standards…..”Do as I think, not as is thought”
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Simply put (for your benefit nasa) pilots are NOT basically a bunch of "dobbers" - we rely on what is supposedly a fail-safe system to catch those who try to slip through.
So it comes down to the basic question of "Should we have faith in our regulatory system" (which ASSURES us we should!), or should we assume that the system is inherantly faulty and will allow anyone, who has big enough balls to bs their way, through?
Those who manage to slip through the net are usually spotted - as was this guy - and his/her actions monitored by his peers. Yes, theft probably doesn't affect one's flying ability - but a long-term history of stealing AND being caught, then trying it AGAIN, and being caught AGAIN, would indicate that some people might also have a learning disability! But is this the role of a professional pilot? To monitor his workmates? Surely this is the responsibility of the EMPLOYER...the HIRER..who decides who should be responsible for transporting the human payload!
So it comes down to the basic question of "Should we have faith in our regulatory system" (which ASSURES us we should!), or should we assume that the system is inherantly faulty and will allow anyone, who has big enough balls to bs their way, through?
Those who manage to slip through the net are usually spotted - as was this guy - and his/her actions monitored by his peers. Yes, theft probably doesn't affect one's flying ability - but a long-term history of stealing AND being caught, then trying it AGAIN, and being caught AGAIN, would indicate that some people might also have a learning disability! But is this the role of a professional pilot? To monitor his workmates? Surely this is the responsibility of the EMPLOYER...the HIRER..who decides who should be responsible for transporting the human payload!
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Australasia
Posts: 362
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gaunty me old,
What would you propose that the regulator did and under what power?
Now that the story is apparently in the public domain, it would/should be hard for the regulator to ignore it.
short flights long nights
I love the heros, to me they will always remain heros. And when my children are older and say "Dad I want to be a hero", I can tell them, look at ALL the worlds heros, and find some that are better than these to model yourself on, because the world has its heros, and then it HAS ITS HEROS
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
4Dogs
2 distinct reactions to your post.
Bugger! as he stumbles into huge CASA dedicated library next to office to consult the Rosetta Stone to find the index to the index of the Concordance of Acts, Regs, CAAPs, AIC, AIP blah blah as amended blah blah......muttering 'if there isn't one there should be, they've prescribed and proscribed everything else'.
BRB.
Hallelujah! he returns, if he had ever left, we were about to sacrifice a virgin.... etcetera, etcetera, etcetera
2 distinct reactions to your post.
Bugger! as he stumbles into huge CASA dedicated library next to office to consult the Rosetta Stone to find the index to the index of the Concordance of Acts, Regs, CAAPs, AIC, AIP blah blah as amended blah blah......muttering 'if there isn't one there should be, they've prescribed and proscribed everything else'.
BRB.Hallelujah! he returns, if he had ever left, we were about to sacrifice a virgin.... etcetera, etcetera, etcetera