NSW Air Ambulance contract
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I believe the tender document has been issued to all interested parties. Apparently it does not call for multi-engine aircraft. The King Air may be under fire here. PC12's next for NSW and then for the VIC Air Ambulance as well is my guess. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
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You blokes are right.. .It was in todays Australian newspaper.. .NSW Dept of Public Works has put out a tender for the Air Ambulance. Tender No 111/7180.. .This time it is for the supply of the aircraft as well.. .I have not seen the tender docs, but knowing the system if you tendered with anything less than a twin, forget about it.
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I can tell you they DONT call for multi engine aircrft. I think they are keeping all options open at this early stage. You have to ask yourself, why not use the PC12?
thats the question they will be asking themselves when they make the choice.
It satisfies all legal criteria. Others are using it all around the country and over all terrain and water. I dont like it, its just my prediction.
thats the question they will be asking themselves when they make the choice.
It satisfies all legal criteria. Others are using it all around the country and over all terrain and water. I dont like it, its just my prediction.
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Oh so it's still possible to bid Beech 18s or Lockheed Electras (the piston ones) or perhaps if they will consider singles, the Antonov 2 then? <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
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You s#!t stirrer Soup Nazi <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Let's see now, which pollie is going to put his neck on the line by choosing a single engine tender over a twin engine tender, given the question mark hanging over the whole 2 v. 1 safety debate and the fact that the ambulance officers who fly in these things don't want to know about anything singular.
Let's see now, which pollie is going to put his neck on the line by choosing a single engine tender over a twin engine tender, given the question mark hanging over the whole 2 v. 1 safety debate and the fact that the ambulance officers who fly in these things don't want to know about anything singular.
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Actually Bargearse, with out wanting to stir any s*!t, the PC12 is really the best machine for the job. Although, unfortunately it does nothing for the multi hours in the log book, it has the ability to fly from Darwin to Brisbane and hold and alternate for Melbourne! It's fast,comfy and easy to load stretchers, and the nurses and doc's in Ca. love them. Took about a day for them to get over that fear of only one engine, but now they hate to see the Beech roll out! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
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Never said they weren't any good for the job Props.. .Just that no ambo will want to go near them and for an ambulance contract to be a success, it's pretty important to have an ambo/flt nurse on board. And at the moment, a single engine a/c with the ambulance service just isn't cricket.
[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Bargearse ]</p>
[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Bargearse ]</p>
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Props. .The standard PC12 maybe able to go DW-BN with ML as the Alt, but not in MED config. Maybe DW-MT ISA with BN as the ALT. The thing with the whole PC12 issue is it can legally do the job, Its a much more capable medical aircraft than the B200 and its cheaper to buy. Nobody is going to ask the Ambos/FLN's what they think. If they dont want the job, someone else will and thats the way its done these days.
The King Air is a far better aircraft in every other way, backups left and right for everything. The latest B200 has just as good an avionics package as well. The problem with the King Air is it doesn't meet the latest design safety standards and it cant take two standard stretchers. So what ever happens its going to come down to two Vs one, convenience and cost. My bet is the successfull tenderer will also provide their own Flight Nurses as well.
I wish Pilatus had also made a twin engine (one on each wing) version of the PC12. It would be a hit.
My monies with the PC12, I dont like it any more than the next guy, I think the King Air is a much better platform for this type of work. But a government department will make the final decission, and that says it all! I'm just glad I wont have to fly in them, hopefully!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
The King Air is a far better aircraft in every other way, backups left and right for everything. The latest B200 has just as good an avionics package as well. The problem with the King Air is it doesn't meet the latest design safety standards and it cant take two standard stretchers. So what ever happens its going to come down to two Vs one, convenience and cost. My bet is the successfull tenderer will also provide their own Flight Nurses as well.
I wish Pilatus had also made a twin engine (one on each wing) version of the PC12. It would be a hit.
My monies with the PC12, I dont like it any more than the next guy, I think the King Air is a much better platform for this type of work. But a government department will make the final decission, and that says it all! I'm just glad I wont have to fly in them, hopefully!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
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Just a practical aspect...
Up at flight levels you go through an electrical storm that was not painting on the radar (which is common), the prop/engine get a lightning strike, the PT6 starts to fall apart maybe a few seconds or a few hours later ....
You have a engine failure over the ranges, or far west, the manufacturer says you can glide forever...
Has anyone thought how bl**dy cold its get without bleed air at flight levels, and how long the crew, sick pax, and other hangar oners have to suck O2 before they land or do a forced landing...
Anyone able to confirm that in SA the RFDS teach their pilots to fly the aircraft at Vne after an engine failure at flight levels as separate from the normal glide ?
Z
Up at flight levels you go through an electrical storm that was not painting on the radar (which is common), the prop/engine get a lightning strike, the PT6 starts to fall apart maybe a few seconds or a few hours later ....
You have a engine failure over the ranges, or far west, the manufacturer says you can glide forever...
Has anyone thought how bl**dy cold its get without bleed air at flight levels, and how long the crew, sick pax, and other hangar oners have to suck O2 before they land or do a forced landing...
Anyone able to confirm that in SA the RFDS teach their pilots to fly the aircraft at Vne after an engine failure at flight levels as separate from the normal glide ?
Z
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Zeke. .I agree on all your points. The PC12 glides at about 2.5 to 1. That is it goes 2.5 nm for each 1000ft of height lost (the B200 is 2.0:1). I believe Central Section RFDS use the standard glide to intercept a 1:1 descent profile to a selected field and maintaining this 1:1 gives a speed of about Vne. They hit the circuit at this speed and theoretically have enough enertia to carry out a full circuit and land.
This of course assumes the runway has PAL lighting and that you are visual. If either of these does not occur, well, you can guess the rest! A PC12 after departure from SY should always be able to at least clear the mountains in a glide. The glide speed is less for a PC12 than a B200 and the stall is less than 70kt. A King Air stalls at about 86kt (Raisebeck), a big difference.
Pilatus have done a lot to give the occupants of the aircraft every chance of survival in an emergency landing in the bush. The point is you don't want to go to the bush, you just want to go home! The PC12 cannot be as safe as the B200. PERIOD.
My opinion only. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
This of course assumes the runway has PAL lighting and that you are visual. If either of these does not occur, well, you can guess the rest! A PC12 after departure from SY should always be able to at least clear the mountains in a glide. The glide speed is less for a PC12 than a B200 and the stall is less than 70kt. A King Air stalls at about 86kt (Raisebeck), a big difference.
Pilatus have done a lot to give the occupants of the aircraft every chance of survival in an emergency landing in the bush. The point is you don't want to go to the bush, you just want to go home! The PC12 cannot be as safe as the B200. PERIOD.
My opinion only. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Aaaah, Gaunty, one must have a certain "maturity" shall we say, to know about Beech 18's and piston Lockheed Electras?
And the rest of you show little knowledge of modern Government aviation tendering practices! Usually a Consultant is engaged to define the task, write the tender, assess the responses and produce a short list. A hint may, or may not have been dropped to him (lowest price, twin/single or the Minister's best mate).
Often close scrutiny of the tender document may give a hint as to the author. It would be extremely rare for the author to be a public servant.
That way, if it turns to cr@p it's the external consultants fault. If it works the Minister takes the glory.
Twin hours in the pilots Log Book or M/E pay in his pay packet tend to have little bearing on the final outcome.
I haven't seen the tender but on modern trends it's my guess the PC12 would be in there with an excellent chance. And the fact some pilots may not wish to fly a S/E turbine aircraft will have little impact on the hoards of pilots who will be very happy to fly the aircraft.
[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Torres ]</p>
And the rest of you show little knowledge of modern Government aviation tendering practices! Usually a Consultant is engaged to define the task, write the tender, assess the responses and produce a short list. A hint may, or may not have been dropped to him (lowest price, twin/single or the Minister's best mate).
Often close scrutiny of the tender document may give a hint as to the author. It would be extremely rare for the author to be a public servant.
That way, if it turns to cr@p it's the external consultants fault. If it works the Minister takes the glory.
Twin hours in the pilots Log Book or M/E pay in his pay packet tend to have little bearing on the final outcome.
I haven't seen the tender but on modern trends it's my guess the PC12 would be in there with an excellent chance. And the fact some pilots may not wish to fly a S/E turbine aircraft will have little impact on the hoards of pilots who will be very happy to fly the aircraft.
[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Torres ]</p>
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Some clarification is needed here.
1.The reason that the tassie and vic air ambulance services are operating B200s is that they do not want a single engine a/c. The paramedics won't fly in them and no, the next person won't either. There unions are strong. No paramedic, no air ambulance service. Simple. Yes they may coax the Flight nurses in to them,
but then:
2. NSW watch their brothers in vic and tas very closely to the point of seeking guidence for there up coming contract renewal. The ambulance services in the southern states are of a very high world standard and it is not only NSW that is taking notes. . ."You guys are operating B200s. Why?" . ."Well we think 2 engines are better than 1". .Simple argument, but advice from an experienced world class service that others will heed.
3. The amount of money you save in operating a PC12 is small change in the grand scheme of things when you talk about govt. contracts. The cheapest tender does not always get the job.
I agree that the PC12 is a very good platform for medical work but in my opinion, it won't be given a go in NSW.
1.The reason that the tassie and vic air ambulance services are operating B200s is that they do not want a single engine a/c. The paramedics won't fly in them and no, the next person won't either. There unions are strong. No paramedic, no air ambulance service. Simple. Yes they may coax the Flight nurses in to them,
but then:
2. NSW watch their brothers in vic and tas very closely to the point of seeking guidence for there up coming contract renewal. The ambulance services in the southern states are of a very high world standard and it is not only NSW that is taking notes. . ."You guys are operating B200s. Why?" . ."Well we think 2 engines are better than 1". .Simple argument, but advice from an experienced world class service that others will heed.
3. The amount of money you save in operating a PC12 is small change in the grand scheme of things when you talk about govt. contracts. The cheapest tender does not always get the job.
I agree that the PC12 is a very good platform for medical work but in my opinion, it won't be given a go in NSW.
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I can see where you are coming from Barge, but as your main point seems to be that it is the paras/nurses won't fly in them, I have to tell you that this was our companies main concern when considering the PC12 for our new contract. We decided to lease one for a week to trial it, and as I said before, after their first flight the Doc and nurses loved it. It has everything from speed to comfort and no longer needed to stop for fuel half way to Toronto. They were sold, and so were we.. .I will be the first to admit that I b!tched and moaned non stop for at least a month (I still do most days) because I am no longer climbing up the golden multi hour ladder, but I comfort myself in the fact that I am getting some glass time. You are right, it is a fine machine, and I am falling in love with it more every flight. <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> . .Oh and about the only having one engine thing, I regularly fly toronto - Vancouver over the Rockies with more ice in the sky and huge rocks in the cloud, and it hasn't caused a skip in the heart beat yet. That sweet -67 just keeps plugging along
[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Propsrforboats ]</p>
[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Propsrforboats ]</p>
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Props. .You can get that same "GLASS TIME" in any late model King Air. The avionics are now as good or better than th PC12's.
Medically the PC12 is unsurpassed at the present time and I think once people try them they seem to take to them very well.
Its just that one engine that worries me. In time one will fail and the PC12 will be no longer in this country. Long live the King!!!
Medically the PC12 is unsurpassed at the present time and I think once people try them they seem to take to them very well.
Its just that one engine that worries me. In time one will fail and the PC12 will be no longer in this country. Long live the King!!!
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That's a good point soup, but planes will crash (the unfortunate law of gravity helps there <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> ). .eight engines or none. The gobad has two turbines but the tail falls off of it. I believe the king air that just crashed in Toowoomba had an engine failure (correct me if I'm wrong, that was the last I heard). . .The fact is, the power producing engine will only take you to the scene of the accident. . .I know that the latter model 200s have glass, but at a much higher price. As much as we hate it, the fact is the GA industry is moving more toward the SE turbine every day, and there's nothing we can do about it. I just hope that the majors will start to consider that.
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It is interesting how comercial pressure is now back in full force, and winning. The pilot counter balance has diminished enormously in recent years, as we compete and sell ourselves like prostitutes for the ever diminishing job opportunities .. . ."Aviation like the Sea is totally unforgiving of any incapacity or neglect" yet the push for longer ETOPS and S/E IFR is ever constant. Someone will have to pay the ultimate price before these ill-informed 'powers to be' pull in their head. WE will pay that price. WE will as usual be blamed. The cause will be 'pilot error' or 'willfull misconduct' to save on the insurance cost and justify their lack of guilt. Yes the truth will be not be told. The only way to fight back is for every Pilot to be heard in every media forum. A few will not be heared we all must be proactive in this cause. We will of course need to be interested and care for each other and not be just selfish of heart.
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I guess the reason that the GA industry is moving toward S/E tubine aircraft is that firstly they are allowed to and secondly its cheaper. There are also no small twins on the market to replace the ageing fleets currently in service. The King Air C90 is the smallest I know of and its expensive to buy and run.
If CASA were to make twin engines a requirement for IFR and night ops it would force the industry into these types. This wont happen because they went out of their way to allow singles into the day/night IFR charter and RPT market.
Like I said before, if the PC12 was a twin it would be perfect for the job. Its time for the people who make the descissions to be accountable. Probably the NSW Government will get some independant agency to sort the tenders and make a recomendation thus giving them someone to blame when something goes wrong.
There is one good valid reason that a twin should be used for all aeromedical work. The travelling public ride on these aircraft often without the choice of a feasable alternative. Unlike charter and RPT where you know beforehand if your riding in a twin or a single and can choose not to. The reason singles havent taken off in RPT and charter in this country is because people choose to fly in twin engined aircraft. Based on this and the fact that the Australian taxpayer funds these contracts you would have to assume they would also prefer to fund twins for this job as well. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
If CASA were to make twin engines a requirement for IFR and night ops it would force the industry into these types. This wont happen because they went out of their way to allow singles into the day/night IFR charter and RPT market.
Like I said before, if the PC12 was a twin it would be perfect for the job. Its time for the people who make the descissions to be accountable. Probably the NSW Government will get some independant agency to sort the tenders and make a recomendation thus giving them someone to blame when something goes wrong.
There is one good valid reason that a twin should be used for all aeromedical work. The travelling public ride on these aircraft often without the choice of a feasable alternative. Unlike charter and RPT where you know beforehand if your riding in a twin or a single and can choose not to. The reason singles havent taken off in RPT and charter in this country is because people choose to fly in twin engined aircraft. Based on this and the fact that the Australian taxpayer funds these contracts you would have to assume they would also prefer to fund twins for this job as well. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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hiGuys. .Several points re the contracts.. .1)The B200 can and does carry 2 stretchers easily.All RFDS aircraft(NSW section are equipped.. .2)The fave's for the NSW contract will be Pearl and RFDS both bidding with new 200's.. .You will find Pearl is in all sorts of problems with there bid as they have had a great deal of bad luck with a/c availability in SY over the last 3 years.. .The Kingair will reign as the premier Aeromed aircraft in this country for a long long time to come.. .Victoria will not change PERIOD!. .NSW not far behind them.. .As a proffesional you have the option to not fly in a single engine aircraft of hills at night in bad weather.As a patient you do NOT.. .That is the guts of why Kingairs will remain.. .PS. .The Toowooba aircraft was a C-90 a considerable different aircraft than to that flown by the Aeromed services in Southern Australia.Also as a charter catagory aircraft it was maintained to a different standard to all the major contracts in Australia.. .Probably not a dissimilar situation to the PC12 which went for a swim off the coast of Russia Japan last year.