Ansett versus the Leopards
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Ansett versus the Leopards
Leopards certainly do not change their spots.
Qantas management certainly ensuring the tradition continues. One does not need a Harvard degree in business management to perceive Qantas tactics to ensure Ansett is crushed totally whilst maintaining an ability to eliminate possible future competitors.
However, where have I seen these contributing factors before?
Military aircraft carrying domestic airline passengers.
Foreign aircraft and crews flying the routes and passengers of an Australian airline therefore doing the jobs of Australian crews. (In this, case add flight attendants)
The current Australian Government condoning this.
The current Opposition conspicuous by their absence of vociferous objection to the use of Foreigners.
Qantas Pilots, International, allowing use of foreign aircraft and crews to fly Australian operations and not saying / doing anything again.
The ACTU allowing use of Foreigners whilst Union Members jobs and conditions are under serious attack. A difference this time is the members of the union concerned are ACTU affiliates.
It will be interesting in the future to watch how current pilots justify foreign pilots taking the jobs of Australian pilots (Scabs doing the work of Scabs?) and Union justification?
None of the above bodes well for the future of Ansett.
Qantas management certainly ensuring the tradition continues. One does not need a Harvard degree in business management to perceive Qantas tactics to ensure Ansett is crushed totally whilst maintaining an ability to eliminate possible future competitors.
However, where have I seen these contributing factors before?
Military aircraft carrying domestic airline passengers.
Foreign aircraft and crews flying the routes and passengers of an Australian airline therefore doing the jobs of Australian crews. (In this, case add flight attendants)
The current Australian Government condoning this.
The current Opposition conspicuous by their absence of vociferous objection to the use of Foreigners.
Qantas Pilots, International, allowing use of foreign aircraft and crews to fly Australian operations and not saying / doing anything again.
The ACTU allowing use of Foreigners whilst Union Members jobs and conditions are under serious attack. A difference this time is the members of the union concerned are ACTU affiliates.
It will be interesting in the future to watch how current pilots justify foreign pilots taking the jobs of Australian pilots (Scabs doing the work of Scabs?) and Union justification?
None of the above bodes well for the future of Ansett.
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Some great & pertinent points Dark Night.Flying airliners not the honourable job I hoped in might be.Probably an avaricous society has a lot to do with this.
I do take umbridge at the labelling of the Canadian pilots as scab labour.The situation is wrong as you described but I don`t believe the Canadians are at fault.
I do take umbridge at the labelling of the Canadian pilots as scab labour.The situation is wrong as you described but I don`t believe the Canadians are at fault.
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Hmmmm.....interesting......Assuming you had control, what would you suggest DK????
To shift those kids to/from boarding school you would have............
To fly the excess stranded pax around Australia you would have..........
If you were the Australian Government, you would have..........
The opposition you would have...............
QF Pilot you would have......................
ACTU you would have.........................
I note also, that like many others, you are of the opinion that there are 16000+ Scabs out of work
To shift those kids to/from boarding school you would have............
To fly the excess stranded pax around Australia you would have..........
If you were the Australian Government, you would have..........
The opposition you would have...............
QF Pilot you would have......................
ACTU you would have.........................
I note also, that like many others, you are of the opinion that there are 16000+ Scabs out of work
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Dark Knight
Does that mean that all of those that you metioned conspired to put Ansett down the toilet then, so that they could then take the actions you describe.
nasa
get off that computer and get back to work, NOW!
Does that mean that all of those that you metioned conspired to put Ansett down the toilet then, so that they could then take the actions you describe.
nasa
get off that computer and get back to work, NOW!
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nasa
To further the debate:
To shift those kids to/from boarding school you would have............chartered an Australian civil aircraft, thus providing work for the civil aviation industry?
To fly the excess stranded pax around Australia you would have..........wet leased idle Ansett and regional aircraft?
If you were the Australian Government, you would have..........facilitated the above, providing financial incentives to Qantas/Virgin etc.?
The opposition you would have...............suggested the above to the government and provided bi-partisan support?
QF Pilot you would have......................turned up for work and done your job?
ACTU you would have.........................allowed some flexibility to keep Ansett crews gainfully employed in the short term until a more permanent solution is found. (This has probably happened anyway.)
Desparate times call for cool heads and inovative (not desparate) solutions.
To further the debate:
To shift those kids to/from boarding school you would have............chartered an Australian civil aircraft, thus providing work for the civil aviation industry?
To fly the excess stranded pax around Australia you would have..........wet leased idle Ansett and regional aircraft?
If you were the Australian Government, you would have..........facilitated the above, providing financial incentives to Qantas/Virgin etc.?
The opposition you would have...............suggested the above to the government and provided bi-partisan support?
QF Pilot you would have......................turned up for work and done your job?
ACTU you would have.........................allowed some flexibility to keep Ansett crews gainfully employed in the short term until a more permanent solution is found. (This has probably happened anyway.)
Desparate times call for cool heads and inovative (not desparate) solutions.
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Bulldog69:
Air Canada pilots are union members knowingly doing the flying of other pilots. (Same as they and others did previously and “The situation is wrong as you described but I don’t believe the Canadians are at fault.” is exactly what was said previously) If the unions were honest and supporting their members, this would not be happening forcing the relevant parties to find proper solution to the woes of Ansett.
Nasa:
“I note also, that like many others, you are of the opinion that there are 16000+ Scabs out of work” is a gross assumption & misrepresentation of what I said. Ansett was and always had been a great airline comprised of honest, dedicated, loyal employees unfortunately contained within were a group of Scabs who by their action in becoming so, contributed to a situation where acts of previous times are again being used which will ensure the demise of this once great airline.
The question I posed, which you obviously missed in its entirety, is again the unions (ACTU) are allowing the aviation industry in this country to be totally desecrated coupled with the conditions of the employees being reduced to third world levels.
The boarding school kids, excess stranded passengers, hotel / resort operators are in current terminology, `collateral damage’ who, in the final analysis, will pay the ten dollar staff entitlement tax and future high air fares charged in this country or sit at home.
Gaunty:
Not what I am saying at all. Ansett has been mismanaged by inept, incompetent and time may show, possibly of dubious legal, management since the mid-eighties. Our flightless friends from across the Tasman possessed of similar managerial abilities procured Ansett completing the process of turning two great airlines into empty shells of their former self.
Said acts having occurred, Qantas management having no other consideration than their own personal rewards and the Qantas bottom line are using / will use every tactic (tactics used in the past) to ensure the carcass of Ansett is consigned to oblivion and abilities of future, hopeful competitors are severely restricted from the very beginning. Qantas management have shown in the past and present they are prepared to use any and all tactics to break unions and reduce the working conditions of Qantas employees to `Asian’ levels or less.
Prophecies made in the past whilst ignored have come to pass and similar events are again to happen yet all are ignoring these lessons. I posed the question surely Qantas employees are not that stupid they cannot see what is happening? Are the Unions / ACTU so stupid they are unable to see this?
With all the `justification’ Scabs have used in the past for their actions future rationalization of Scabs doing the work of Scabs will make intriguing reading.
Air Canada pilots are union members knowingly doing the flying of other pilots. (Same as they and others did previously and “The situation is wrong as you described but I don’t believe the Canadians are at fault.” is exactly what was said previously) If the unions were honest and supporting their members, this would not be happening forcing the relevant parties to find proper solution to the woes of Ansett.
Nasa:
“I note also, that like many others, you are of the opinion that there are 16000+ Scabs out of work” is a gross assumption & misrepresentation of what I said. Ansett was and always had been a great airline comprised of honest, dedicated, loyal employees unfortunately contained within were a group of Scabs who by their action in becoming so, contributed to a situation where acts of previous times are again being used which will ensure the demise of this once great airline.
The question I posed, which you obviously missed in its entirety, is again the unions (ACTU) are allowing the aviation industry in this country to be totally desecrated coupled with the conditions of the employees being reduced to third world levels.
The boarding school kids, excess stranded passengers, hotel / resort operators are in current terminology, `collateral damage’ who, in the final analysis, will pay the ten dollar staff entitlement tax and future high air fares charged in this country or sit at home.
Gaunty:
Not what I am saying at all. Ansett has been mismanaged by inept, incompetent and time may show, possibly of dubious legal, management since the mid-eighties. Our flightless friends from across the Tasman possessed of similar managerial abilities procured Ansett completing the process of turning two great airlines into empty shells of their former self.
Said acts having occurred, Qantas management having no other consideration than their own personal rewards and the Qantas bottom line are using / will use every tactic (tactics used in the past) to ensure the carcass of Ansett is consigned to oblivion and abilities of future, hopeful competitors are severely restricted from the very beginning. Qantas management have shown in the past and present they are prepared to use any and all tactics to break unions and reduce the working conditions of Qantas employees to `Asian’ levels or less.
Prophecies made in the past whilst ignored have come to pass and similar events are again to happen yet all are ignoring these lessons. I posed the question surely Qantas employees are not that stupid they cannot see what is happening? Are the Unions / ACTU so stupid they are unable to see this?
With all the `justification’ Scabs have used in the past for their actions future rationalization of Scabs doing the work of Scabs will make intriguing reading.
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Quote from Geoff Dixon..:"It is not in my job description to save Ansett".
Whose flying are the Canadian pilots knowingly taking DK? They are based in NZ flying QF Tasman flights to allow QF 767's to fly more domestic sectors. So they are not taking AN flights...if anything they are taking QF flying. By your logic, the QF 767 pilots now doing domestic flying instead of these Tasmans are now Scabs because they are taking AN flying.
This has nothing to do with scabs or anything remotely like that. A New Zealand owned company goes bust, through no fault of QF, and you seem to think that QF must act as a benevolent charity.
The AN aircraft lying idle are NOT available. They are encumbered by their lessors and are liable to be repossessed at any time. In the mean time traffic needs to be moved.
Aspersions that this is in any way reminiscent of 89 are idiotic.
Whose flying are the Canadian pilots knowingly taking DK? They are based in NZ flying QF Tasman flights to allow QF 767's to fly more domestic sectors. So they are not taking AN flights...if anything they are taking QF flying. By your logic, the QF 767 pilots now doing domestic flying instead of these Tasmans are now Scabs because they are taking AN flying.
This has nothing to do with scabs or anything remotely like that. A New Zealand owned company goes bust, through no fault of QF, and you seem to think that QF must act as a benevolent charity.
The AN aircraft lying idle are NOT available. They are encumbered by their lessors and are liable to be repossessed at any time. In the mean time traffic needs to be moved.
Aspersions that this is in any way reminiscent of 89 are idiotic.
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To further the debate:
To shift those kids to/from boarding school you would have............chartered an Australian civil aircraft, thus providing work for the civil aviation industry? Why…..We have a military that’s already paid for, why not utilise it and save the taxpayer some $$$’s
To fly the excess stranded pax around Australia you would have..........wet leased idle Ansett and regional aircraft? The regulatory ramifications alone do not allow this to happen in any sort of acceptable time span, not to mention the legal obligations of the Administrator in relation to Contractual Agreements etc
If you were the Australian Government, you would have..........facilitated the above, providing financial incentives to Qantas/Virgin etc.? Now you want the Australian Taxpayer to pick up the tab so that QF & VB can profit from the demise of AN
The opposition you would have...............suggested the above to the government and provided bi-partisan support? I thought I was an idealist
QF Pilot you would have......................turned up for work and done your job? Why not share your job on a work share basis with your counterparts at AN and therefore ensure all your buddies have jobs and are flying
ACTU you would have.........................allowed some flexibility to keep Ansett crews gainfully employed in the short term until a more permanent solution is found. (This has probably happened anyway.) Why is it only now that the Unions “MAY” allow flexibility…..Why didn’t this happen four years ago
Desparate times call for cool heads and inovative (not desparate) solutions.
--------------------
Regards
4711
To shift those kids to/from boarding school you would have............chartered an Australian civil aircraft, thus providing work for the civil aviation industry? Why…..We have a military that’s already paid for, why not utilise it and save the taxpayer some $$$’s
To fly the excess stranded pax around Australia you would have..........wet leased idle Ansett and regional aircraft? The regulatory ramifications alone do not allow this to happen in any sort of acceptable time span, not to mention the legal obligations of the Administrator in relation to Contractual Agreements etc
If you were the Australian Government, you would have..........facilitated the above, providing financial incentives to Qantas/Virgin etc.? Now you want the Australian Taxpayer to pick up the tab so that QF & VB can profit from the demise of AN
The opposition you would have...............suggested the above to the government and provided bi-partisan support? I thought I was an idealist
QF Pilot you would have......................turned up for work and done your job? Why not share your job on a work share basis with your counterparts at AN and therefore ensure all your buddies have jobs and are flying
ACTU you would have.........................allowed some flexibility to keep Ansett crews gainfully employed in the short term until a more permanent solution is found. (This has probably happened anyway.) Why is it only now that the Unions “MAY” allow flexibility…..Why didn’t this happen four years ago
Desparate times call for cool heads and inovative (not desparate) solutions.
--------------------
Regards
4711
I note in your reply to gaunty, you say
Qantas management have shown in the past and present they are prepared to use any and all tactics to break unions and reduce the working conditions of Qantas employees to `Asian’ levels or less.
TCOB I agree wholeheartedly and also I agree with Geoff Dixon…..Why the bloody hell should QF, or for that matter anyone, have to throw their dollars into AN, after the mismanagement of the past 30 years of AN
gaunty One of the pitfalls of having the computer on the desk in my office, and besides, there are not a lot of buyers in the US at the moment, so I’m finding other ways to supplement my income
[ 02 October 2001: Message edited by: nasa ]
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Cutest of Borg
No one in his or her right mind would have ever considered for an instant that `QF must act as a benevolent charity’ and had you read what I had said the thought would not have entered anyone’s mind.
“Canadian pilots knowingly taking DK? They are based in NZ flying QF Tasman flights to allow QF 767's to fly more domestic sectors.” Confirms how I figured Qantas management would do this having the operation based offshore out off Australian duri striction.
Nowhere do I differentiate between QF & AN flying; I am talking about Australian Flying and the Australian aviation industry.
If you know your history and the history of what has happened in the Canadian aviation industry over the last 15 years, where they have been, what has been done you would have little cause to dispute Canadian pilots knowingly doing this flying. They are union members and know precisely what this is all about and are purely pawns, irrelevant in the overall context of the exercise except that by allowing themselves to be used, contribute to the continuing denigration of job opportunities and conditions of fellow pilots. In this case by association, the denigration of job opportunities and conditions of Genuine Ansett staff. Seems to me it has somethnig to do with supporting one's fellow man and being united; words quoted some years ago and no doubt being used today??
How about QF pilots who could be promoted to captain to do this flying; Australian pilots who could be employed to do this flying?
Do not disagree with Geoff Dixon’s quote for a moment however, from his and past Qantas management actions, one can rest assured this management will use each & every tactic, fair & foul to ensure they assist the demise of Ansett and make life as difficult as possible for any future aspirant. In his shoes, would be doing exactly the same and more to ensure the domination of Qantas.
In ensuring the ascendancy by Qantas, reduction of working conditions of employees to `Asian’ levels or less is still firmly on the agenda, which were precisely the aims & objectives started in 1988/89 (not just the airline dispute).
What is questioned is the failures of the unions, Australians to see this, admit they can see this, whilst failing to do anything about it. It does not matter how much spin you want to put upon it; how much you attempt to muddy the discussion with irrelevant `facts’ - Just another Australian company, jobs going overseas and if you want to quote Geoff Dixon, he wishes to see more of Qantas foreign owned.
[ 02 October 2001: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]
No one in his or her right mind would have ever considered for an instant that `QF must act as a benevolent charity’ and had you read what I had said the thought would not have entered anyone’s mind.
“Canadian pilots knowingly taking DK? They are based in NZ flying QF Tasman flights to allow QF 767's to fly more domestic sectors.” Confirms how I figured Qantas management would do this having the operation based offshore out off Australian duri striction.
Nowhere do I differentiate between QF & AN flying; I am talking about Australian Flying and the Australian aviation industry.
If you know your history and the history of what has happened in the Canadian aviation industry over the last 15 years, where they have been, what has been done you would have little cause to dispute Canadian pilots knowingly doing this flying. They are union members and know precisely what this is all about and are purely pawns, irrelevant in the overall context of the exercise except that by allowing themselves to be used, contribute to the continuing denigration of job opportunities and conditions of fellow pilots. In this case by association, the denigration of job opportunities and conditions of Genuine Ansett staff. Seems to me it has somethnig to do with supporting one's fellow man and being united; words quoted some years ago and no doubt being used today??
How about QF pilots who could be promoted to captain to do this flying; Australian pilots who could be employed to do this flying?
Do not disagree with Geoff Dixon’s quote for a moment however, from his and past Qantas management actions, one can rest assured this management will use each & every tactic, fair & foul to ensure they assist the demise of Ansett and make life as difficult as possible for any future aspirant. In his shoes, would be doing exactly the same and more to ensure the domination of Qantas.
In ensuring the ascendancy by Qantas, reduction of working conditions of employees to `Asian’ levels or less is still firmly on the agenda, which were precisely the aims & objectives started in 1988/89 (not just the airline dispute).
What is questioned is the failures of the unions, Australians to see this, admit they can see this, whilst failing to do anything about it. It does not matter how much spin you want to put upon it; how much you attempt to muddy the discussion with irrelevant `facts’ - Just another Australian company, jobs going overseas and if you want to quote Geoff Dixon, he wishes to see more of Qantas foreign owned.
[ 02 October 2001: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]
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At least QF are not shagging only Aust pilots! They come over here for a week, fly up and down the main trunk (cherry picking the profitable NZ routes), and then rotate the crews and/or jets. Talk about BOHICA!Open Skys over here and a closed shop in Aust! Nice one.
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Dark Knight, back to the original proposition about Qantas Pty Limited. Well Daryls' just doing what he should and if you were a board member you would also want to know why he has not grabbed all that market and by the way from a public perception they sure are glad Q is not operating those old 767s. Feel very sorry for those affected, it gets harder to start again, most of us have had two or three, so to be back in the churn again would be simply dreadful. As for the non-oz's, well we fly in their countries so fairs fair.
I think were in for the long haul here again. The victim as usual aviation. As the Ansett demise unfolds we watch the available market dribble back into cars to drive about the country. Virgin need not be to cocky, all that marketing work, growing the market, just went down the tube, back to the desperate and needy in suits monday to friday BN-SY-ML monorail ad nauseum. No fall back this time to GA, its ******ed for good and can't support the existing casualised work force let alone more 'Learn to Fly' schemes. Forget it, you either want to or you do not. No this is all a bit grim and even more so given the capital losses on world markets which is now beginning to collapse asset values. Any airframe manufacturer is just hoping on a big upsurge in military work to keep on rolling. This has the capacity to be every bit as bad as 1929, if, and this is the BIG IF, if it is not mismanaged.
Australian aviation is back to it's natural duopoly any one who thinks otherwise simply has not read the research and literature, I have, nothings changed there either.
All we need now is a hair brained rural and regional incentive scheme to tie up capital infrastructure with development and transport under the umbrella of aviation, find a Director General and hey presto, 1948 continues.
One things for certain, nothing is.
Fly safely.
I think were in for the long haul here again. The victim as usual aviation. As the Ansett demise unfolds we watch the available market dribble back into cars to drive about the country. Virgin need not be to cocky, all that marketing work, growing the market, just went down the tube, back to the desperate and needy in suits monday to friday BN-SY-ML monorail ad nauseum. No fall back this time to GA, its ******ed for good and can't support the existing casualised work force let alone more 'Learn to Fly' schemes. Forget it, you either want to or you do not. No this is all a bit grim and even more so given the capital losses on world markets which is now beginning to collapse asset values. Any airframe manufacturer is just hoping on a big upsurge in military work to keep on rolling. This has the capacity to be every bit as bad as 1929, if, and this is the BIG IF, if it is not mismanaged.
Australian aviation is back to it's natural duopoly any one who thinks otherwise simply has not read the research and literature, I have, nothings changed there either.
All we need now is a hair brained rural and regional incentive scheme to tie up capital infrastructure with development and transport under the umbrella of aviation, find a Director General and hey presto, 1948 continues.
One things for certain, nothing is.
Fly safely.
