RFDS Single Pilot Operations
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Having flown with the RFDS I can say that the experience levels and recruitment strategies are well set for the job required.
Operationally single pilot ops work well. As discussed earlier with the medical fit, pilot nurse doctor and 2 patients(stretchers). The aircraft is bulked out and often times weight limited.
Find a bigger aircraft that can do the same job, to the same strips, with the same performance and I reckon you've found the next 2 pilot RFDS aircraft.
Everyone I flew with during my time (Senior Pilot/C&T) with RFDS (QLD) set a standard that showed experience, particularly once the task pressures set in. I know most guys would try as hard as they could, but to risk 3 to save 1 was never an option. They were just as fallible as you or I but as they were faced with these medical pressure decisions everyday they are more apparent as more readily dealt with. That is experience.
As to knowing the patient condition. Often important as it could mean sea level cabin (i.e. reduced range), MED1/MED2/Mercy flight or a routine patient transfer.
I value the concept of 2 pilot ops, I fly in that environment now. As a safe and efficient balance the RFDS safety record stands for itself.
My condolences to RFDS Central section and the pilot's family.
Operationally single pilot ops work well. As discussed earlier with the medical fit, pilot nurse doctor and 2 patients(stretchers). The aircraft is bulked out and often times weight limited.
Find a bigger aircraft that can do the same job, to the same strips, with the same performance and I reckon you've found the next 2 pilot RFDS aircraft.
Everyone I flew with during my time (Senior Pilot/C&T) with RFDS (QLD) set a standard that showed experience, particularly once the task pressures set in. I know most guys would try as hard as they could, but to risk 3 to save 1 was never an option. They were just as fallible as you or I but as they were faced with these medical pressure decisions everyday they are more apparent as more readily dealt with. That is experience.
As to knowing the patient condition. Often important as it could mean sea level cabin (i.e. reduced range), MED1/MED2/Mercy flight or a routine patient transfer.
I value the concept of 2 pilot ops, I fly in that environment now. As a safe and efficient balance the RFDS safety record stands for itself.
My condolences to RFDS Central section and the pilot's family.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Leave it to the Press to get it wrong AGAIN.
The RFDS do have an excellent record, however,unfortunately, this is not the only fatality since 1928.
In the 1950's (1956 I think), a Queen Air belonging to Victorian Section RFDS, with a Pilot named Van Emerick, crashed in the Kimberly region, after departing Tablelands Station. On board were the Pilot, Flight Nurse, a Station Manager and his young Daughter. This tradgedy took place during the Wet season with viloent thunderstorms in the vicinity.
A memorial now stands at the site.
Even with this, the safety record for RFDS is still outstanding given the period over which they have been operating, and the type of work they are sometimes called upon to do.
The RFDS do have an excellent record, however,unfortunately, this is not the only fatality since 1928.
In the 1950's (1956 I think), a Queen Air belonging to Victorian Section RFDS, with a Pilot named Van Emerick, crashed in the Kimberly region, after departing Tablelands Station. On board were the Pilot, Flight Nurse, a Station Manager and his young Daughter. This tradgedy took place during the Wet season with viloent thunderstorms in the vicinity.
A memorial now stands at the site.
Even with this, the safety record for RFDS is still outstanding given the period over which they have been operating, and the type of work they are sometimes called upon to do.
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Hudson
"Mercy Flight" an urgent medical, flood, fire relief or evacuation flight which is likely to involve irregular operations or which cannot comply with CAR's.
I cringe every time I hear the media describe a RFDS or Air Ambulance evacuation flight as a "mercy flight"
In 12 years of air traffic control (including 7 years on remote WA sectors with 1000s of RFDS flights) I have only come across 2 Mercy Flights. On both occasions it was due to a insufficient rest period.
I have great respect for what they do and was very saddened to hear of the accident.
"Mercy Flight" an urgent medical, flood, fire relief or evacuation flight which is likely to involve irregular operations or which cannot comply with CAR's.
I cringe every time I hear the media describe a RFDS or Air Ambulance evacuation flight as a "mercy flight"
In 12 years of air traffic control (including 7 years on remote WA sectors with 1000s of RFDS flights) I have only come across 2 Mercy Flights. On both occasions it was due to a insufficient rest period.
I have great respect for what they do and was very saddened to hear of the accident.
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I cant see two crew being an option, although I often think would be nice. I do think they could re-evaluate the procedure for tasking aircraft at night though. Places like MTG are not really high risk flights with a Vasi, IF approach and PAL. What I have a concern about is flying into marginal unsealed strips at night in all weather. These strips are often served by poor lighting , no navaids, no windsock, Roo's and stock are also a major hazrd. These flights could be limited to P1's only and all lower priority patients left until daylight.
This would be much safer. Its very annoying to through the intense procedures required for a landing at a chalenging strip at night only to find a patient that walks on board and then is not even admitted to hospital!
I guess they could consider two crew for all night ops. The prolem is the aircraft (B200) will suffer in the range department. Definetly much safer though. A heavier aircraft, such as a B350, I believe requires more stringent field requirements that would be to restricting.
Fatigue, rostering and recency on type for those pilots required to operate more than one are all issues that deserve some attention. Hopefully CASA and the RFDS give much consideration to these in the near future.
[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: Soup Nazi ]
This would be much safer. Its very annoying to through the intense procedures required for a landing at a chalenging strip at night only to find a patient that walks on board and then is not even admitted to hospital!
I guess they could consider two crew for all night ops. The prolem is the aircraft (B200) will suffer in the range department. Definetly much safer though. A heavier aircraft, such as a B350, I believe requires more stringent field requirements that would be to restricting.
Fatigue, rostering and recency on type for those pilots required to operate more than one are all issues that deserve some attention. Hopefully CASA and the RFDS give much consideration to these in the near future.
[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: Soup Nazi ]
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To "The King"
The press are not the only ones to get it wrong, The A/C in the kimberly was not a Queen Air, not even certified then I believe, and there is a plaque at the "old" Derby Airport on my last visit in 1989 possibly in addition to your Memorial, although I don't recall that there was one at the site.
RFDS Derby may have the up to date sitrep.
The facts just the facts.
The press are not the only ones to get it wrong, The A/C in the kimberly was not a Queen Air, not even certified then I believe, and there is a plaque at the "old" Derby Airport on my last visit in 1989 possibly in addition to your Memorial, although I don't recall that there was one at the site.
RFDS Derby may have the up to date sitrep.
The facts just the facts.
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It is tragic loss, and only re-inforces the danger involved in these sorts of operations. However, lets not jump the gun and wait until we find out what happened.
I find it hard to believe that such an experienced person would have made an operational decision which may have caused the crash.
No-one is worth dying for (and taking someone else with you). If you crash, then your still not helping the person your trying to save.
If I am not happy with a situation, I get out to somewhere safe, discuss with the flight nurse the options, then go from there. My limited experience on Airmed (not RFDS) has found that the nurses are just as reluctant to push the boundaries. We are even advised not to listen to the flight doctor, as it is generally not their normal occupation.
Airmed and RFDS fly thousands of hours every year, consuming tens of millions of dollars, providing an important service to ALL australians, however it is a service, not a right. If you chose to live more than 1km from the hospital, then you have to expect that if something goes drastically wrong, you may die before getting medical help. Likewise with airmed. Patients are always stabilised before flying, otherwise they stay at the clinic. I have waited numerous hours for the doctor and nurse to stabilise patients, only to have to unload them again when they went downhill again.
But I digress.
If your not happy then get out of the situation and reassess. If you can't do it safely, then don't do it. I hate paperwork, and I love my job, so I am not going to jeopordise it by doing somehting silly.
Accidentslike this are sometimes too close home, and many questions will be asked!
I find it hard to believe that such an experienced person would have made an operational decision which may have caused the crash.
No-one is worth dying for (and taking someone else with you). If you crash, then your still not helping the person your trying to save.
If I am not happy with a situation, I get out to somewhere safe, discuss with the flight nurse the options, then go from there. My limited experience on Airmed (not RFDS) has found that the nurses are just as reluctant to push the boundaries. We are even advised not to listen to the flight doctor, as it is generally not their normal occupation.
Airmed and RFDS fly thousands of hours every year, consuming tens of millions of dollars, providing an important service to ALL australians, however it is a service, not a right. If you chose to live more than 1km from the hospital, then you have to expect that if something goes drastically wrong, you may die before getting medical help. Likewise with airmed. Patients are always stabilised before flying, otherwise they stay at the clinic. I have waited numerous hours for the doctor and nurse to stabilise patients, only to have to unload them again when they went downhill again.
But I digress.
If your not happy then get out of the situation and reassess. If you can't do it safely, then don't do it. I hate paperwork, and I love my job, so I am not going to jeopordise it by doing somehting silly.
Accidentslike this are sometimes too close home, and many questions will be asked!
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To Greybeard,
I stand corrected on the aircraft type, you are right, the queenair wasn't certified until the 60's, it was an Avro Anson, and the memorial was only placed at the crash site in the last 4 years, which is why you didnt hear of it in 1989.
Shouldnt rely on my fading grey cells so much.
I stand corrected on the aircraft type, you are right, the queenair wasn't certified until the 60's, it was an Avro Anson, and the memorial was only placed at the crash site in the last 4 years, which is why you didnt hear of it in 1989.
Shouldnt rely on my fading grey cells so much.
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Cap'n Snooze,
I believe it was under contract from WA Airways, and my source tells me it was definitely an Anson.
I couldnt remember what the type was as it has been some time since I was resident in Derby, but the Anson rings a bell.
Perhaps someone on the scene could clear this up.
[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: The King ]
I believe it was under contract from WA Airways, and my source tells me it was definitely an Anson.
I couldnt remember what the type was as it has been some time since I was resident in Derby, but the Anson rings a bell.
Perhaps someone on the scene could clear this up.
[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: The King ]
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You could well be right, Your Majesty.
Thirty-one years since I worked in Derby.
At that time RFDS management were still very reluctant to request a 'Mercy' flight, even over very minor regulatory technicalities. The accident was still very much in the forefront of their minds.
Snooze
Thirty-one years since I worked in Derby.
At that time RFDS management were still very reluctant to request a 'Mercy' flight, even over very minor regulatory technicalities. The accident was still very much in the forefront of their minds.
Snooze
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My info from a well known ex DCA editor of the crash comics that there have been several RFDS/Aerial Ambulance accidents. They are:
RFDS Baron in Tasmania 1979.Pilot J. Lingridge. Heard to take off from Devonport for Wynyard at night. Crashed into hills. Suspect heart attack - incapacitation.
22/10/53..DH84 Cheviot Hills to Charters Towers. Too heavy, hot day, failed to climb..killed two.
4/2/56. Anson on charter from MMA to RFDS. Ran into thunderstorms at night en-route Derby. Killed 5.
More recently in England. Aerial Ambulance Navajo single pilot. Non-precision VOR/DME runway 09 approach into Liverpool in 2000 metres and low cloud. Highly experienced GA pilot. Hit one mile short and killed 3.
Interesting to note that Police Air Wing operate helicopters with one pilot and observer in other seat up front on aero medical ops. ie Two crew.
RFDS Baron in Tasmania 1979.Pilot J. Lingridge. Heard to take off from Devonport for Wynyard at night. Crashed into hills. Suspect heart attack - incapacitation.
22/10/53..DH84 Cheviot Hills to Charters Towers. Too heavy, hot day, failed to climb..killed two.
4/2/56. Anson on charter from MMA to RFDS. Ran into thunderstorms at night en-route Derby. Killed 5.
More recently in England. Aerial Ambulance Navajo single pilot. Non-precision VOR/DME runway 09 approach into Liverpool in 2000 metres and low cloud. Highly experienced GA pilot. Hit one mile short and killed 3.
Interesting to note that Police Air Wing operate helicopters with one pilot and observer in other seat up front on aero medical ops. ie Two crew.
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They are only "observers" Hudson, not pilots and they are only there when they don't have a patient in the back as they are also paramedics.
Two crew but not two crew proceedures, so yes, they might help avoid a powerline or tree here and there but they won't warn the pilot of tracking and altitude probs ref. an approach.
I agree with the philosphy of two crew ops being better than single pilot. There is definately no question about that as long as the f/os are suitably experienced and trained. Its not a learning environment, it demands experience. So where are these experienced f/os going to come from. Who's going to sit in the right hand seat on 28-30 grand a year when they can get 40-50 in a regional?
However the problem still remains, as I mentioned before, with weight and cost limitations that this would impose on an already limited operation.
Two crew but not two crew proceedures, so yes, they might help avoid a powerline or tree here and there but they won't warn the pilot of tracking and altitude probs ref. an approach.
I agree with the philosphy of two crew ops being better than single pilot. There is definately no question about that as long as the f/os are suitably experienced and trained. Its not a learning environment, it demands experience. So where are these experienced f/os going to come from. Who's going to sit in the right hand seat on 28-30 grand a year when they can get 40-50 in a regional?
However the problem still remains, as I mentioned before, with weight and cost limitations that this would impose on an already limited operation.
Grandpa Aerotart
Seems to me that every year there are quite a few accidents/incidents in aircraft that have two crew(as opposed to two pilots).
That QF1 at BKK was not a fatal was pure luck, as just one example. There have been numerous others over the years all around the world.
Be wary of assuming this accident would not have happened in a two crew operation.
I currently fly medivac all over South East Asia and as far west as Pakistan and Iran in a Falcon and totally agree with those who suggest that there are no circumstances which warrant breaking any rules.
I knew Brian as well, from his days in PNG/PX. He was a nice chap and it's sad to see anyone killed.
IF this accident turns out to be a CFIT then it's likely a young F/O may not have made that much difference, why? Because they tend to happen VERY quickly. It's highly probable that a very few seconds before impact everything seemed fine, if a pilot with 15000 hrs couldn't see the warning signs of impending disaster what hope some one with 1000 hrs?
The same applies to subtle incapacitation. At 300' on a night circling approach how long does it take a young inexperienced F/O (the only kind you will generally have in an RFDS aircraft) to 1/. Recognise the problem and 2/. Take over? Quite possibly/probably longer than it takes to hit the ground!
I have over 4000hrs of Single Pilot multi engine Turbine time. If the pilot is experienced, trained in SP ops, and sensible (i.e. doesn't take stupid risks) it is NOT dangerous. If you get to the minima and don't have the criteria required to circle you go around. If you push your luck and dick around below the minima you risk killing yourself and whomever is on board with you.
I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS CASE!!!
But it may have been, would a young co-pilot have stopped it from happening?
MAYBE.....and that's a big MAYBE!
Chuck.
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
That QF1 at BKK was not a fatal was pure luck, as just one example. There have been numerous others over the years all around the world.
Be wary of assuming this accident would not have happened in a two crew operation.
I currently fly medivac all over South East Asia and as far west as Pakistan and Iran in a Falcon and totally agree with those who suggest that there are no circumstances which warrant breaking any rules.
I knew Brian as well, from his days in PNG/PX. He was a nice chap and it's sad to see anyone killed.
IF this accident turns out to be a CFIT then it's likely a young F/O may not have made that much difference, why? Because they tend to happen VERY quickly. It's highly probable that a very few seconds before impact everything seemed fine, if a pilot with 15000 hrs couldn't see the warning signs of impending disaster what hope some one with 1000 hrs?
The same applies to subtle incapacitation. At 300' on a night circling approach how long does it take a young inexperienced F/O (the only kind you will generally have in an RFDS aircraft) to 1/. Recognise the problem and 2/. Take over? Quite possibly/probably longer than it takes to hit the ground!
I have over 4000hrs of Single Pilot multi engine Turbine time. If the pilot is experienced, trained in SP ops, and sensible (i.e. doesn't take stupid risks) it is NOT dangerous. If you get to the minima and don't have the criteria required to circle you go around. If you push your luck and dick around below the minima you risk killing yourself and whomever is on board with you.
I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS CASE!!!
But it may have been, would a young co-pilot have stopped it from happening?
MAYBE.....and that's a big MAYBE!
Chuck.
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
