Being a Positive Influence in Changing the Future of Our Aviation Industry & Communit

[awetzel]

There has been a good thread started at .<a href="http://www.aopa.com.au/board/" target="_blank">AOPA <a href="http://www.aopa.com.au/board/</a>" target="_blank">http://www.aopa.com.au/board/[/URL]</a> forum. It is under "Non-Members Forum" called "Being a Positive Influence in Changing the Future of Our Aviation Industry & Community!"

Take a look at it and post your positive thoughts.<a href="http://www.aopa.com.au/board/" target="_blank">AOPA <a href="http://www.aopa.com.au/board/</a>" target="_blank">http://www.aopa.com.au/board/[/URL]</a>

<img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Creampuff]

You left out an important bit, AW: You can only post stuff that's not critical of anything AOPA's doing. The AOPA forum's censored.

For instance, here's something very positive about australian aviation that I could not post on the AOPA forum:

AOPA has done an excellent job of promoting the interests of the AUF and other sports aviation bodies in Australia. Trouble is, that's not what many of its members thought it was paying AOPA to do.

[JayJay]

Oh pleeeaase!

Just cos you call say it's a good thread don't make it so. You only want positive thoughts you say.

Look around, it aint all beer and roses for the pro pilots at ANY level in the current climate.

You strolling adventurers have rights, no one denies that, but is your collective ego so huge that you think anyone outside your little mutual wa&*#&g club cares about you?

Pilots, LAME's, Hosties, Cleaners ect ect want work in safe and modern environments. Exactly what will you bring to this industry?

[awetzel]

The AOPA site should be a lot more censored than what it has been. PPRUNE does not put up with negative crap on here either.

If we want an aviation future we either do something about it or we just leave it the way it is heading.

AW <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Kaptin M]

Well, here's Aussie Pilot's essay as he posted it on the AOPA website:

I have been flying since the late 80's, it has always intrigued me why does the industry tear itself apart, by so much negative crap. It is not an AOPA problem, it is an "us" industry Australia wide problem. You hear this flying school criticise another or one operator pull down another, instead of working together. You see on the news group's aus.aviation or <a href="http://www.pprune.org" target="_blank">www.pprune.org</a> etc

The silly thing is when we all learnt to fly; we had this never give up attitude in obtaining our licenses. Some of us had road blocks in our early training, weather it was with cross wind landings, Communications/Radio or navigation hang ups etc, we stuck it through and WON.

We all learnt to be great forward thinkers in our piloting skills, we also learnt if we are off track or the aircraft is not where it should be to take decisive action to rectify the problem immediately, but when it comes to joining forces with a united front for the aviation industry; we appear to have lost all these great skills.

We either sit on the fence and do nothing and say it is not my problem or we join in and tear it apart as what I have seen going on with the AOPA forum's, aus.aviation news group and <a href="http://www.pprune.org" target="_blank">www.pprune.org</a> "Dunnuda & Godzone" forum. If we sit on the fence we are as bad as the guys who criticise our industry. I will go far as to say, if you hear someone doing it, ask them to stop it. It takes guts to stand up and be counted in taking ownership and responsibility for your industry and aviation community in putting a stop to this destructive, unproductive talk. It is your hobby and industry their crapping out. Start supporting our democratically appointed representatives and leaders within our industry. It is your choice where you want this industry to go.

Come on ladies and gentlemen, let's all pull together and be a positive influence in our industry and not be so blind, self centred and selfish that we cannot see beyond our noses. Support the Success of this wonderful industry in what ever way that you can. If you don't who is?

Stay with AOPA and support your industry and community.

Without trying to sound negative or critical, AW, apart from saying "nice things" to each other, and telling others to stop bad-mouthing Oz aviation, what concrete proposals do you have to "Change the Future of Our Aviation Industry & Community"?

[awetzel]

Kaptin M,

We are trying to get a group discussion going to have people put their positive feed back in and new idea's. No one on their own has the total answer, but as a group who knows what we can come up with?

Concrete Proposals can only be formulated from us as a group/team otherwise it is just another dictator row seme, peddling it's own agenda which we have seen in the past in our aviation community and failed.

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Aw

[JayJay]

OK Aussie Pilot, I'm game.

Before we Has Bins, Still Are's and Wannabe's rush over to help your little club please tell us how many AOC holders have been on your little Committee in say the last 10 years? How many actual commercial pilots, working that is, from GA have been on your little Committee in say the last 10 years?

Apart from the QF club, how many of the Committee in say the last 10 years have actually owned and operated an actual aircraft?

How many regional pilots have made your grade?

From what I can see there is no basis at all for you to claim that AOPA is the saviour of anything. Since my return to this fair land and prior to my departure your little group has achieved a sum total of not very much! If it had managed more than the occasional little bright spot you wouldn't be bleating for help now!

AOPA, AUF, SAAA, HAA, GAPA and so on and so on. The AUF seems to be a pretty well run organisation for what is does. If you are the champions of the weekend pilot then have a look at them or just get on with organising your BBQ's.

For once I can actually understand what Creampuff is saying and so I went and had a look. Wow!! You guys really run a tight ship don't you!

[Lead Balloon]

And I admit it Aussie Pilot, I'm Bob Roberts.

Who has had about 20 posts removed when asking questions about the structure and substance of AOPA and its "merger" with the AUF.

Which is fine, because its your sandpit, not ours.

[CoodaShooda]

Um LB....aren't you supposed to be Creampuff?? <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Woomera]

Aussie Pilot

I cannot but support and applaud your sentiments in regard to being a positive force with every thing that we are associated and about which we are passionate.

PPRuNe by definition is exactly that.

It goes without saying that PPRuNers are free and encouraged to be so and go wherever they want.. .More importantly free, within the bounds of our rules, to make whatever comment they care to make on any aviation matter or subject free of censoprship, the ONLY requirement being that they be registered and that too is free.. .There is no censorship beyond that.

Whether AOPA are effective or not as an organisation is for others to judge and a visit to your site may well be instructive for them.

However, PPRuNe is not such an organisation, beyond moderating within the rules, there is no President, commitee, agenda or the remotest attempt to push any, save that of Rumour and News and perhaps ventilate issues that might not otherwise see the light of day. .That is the beauty of the thing and that is the real protection from the "Dictators" <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> of whom you speak.. .Neither do we find it necessary to have a KPMG on retainer, lest someone wants to chase one of us down our burrow should we be tempted to expose cant, fallacy or humbug on a contentious issue. . .Expect to be challenged to support your argument or position on any subject regardless of title, position, or organisation. . .Do not expect to have any special 'rights' conferred other than a hearing, respect for both sides point of view and civilised discussion and debate. . .Respect is earned here by the quality of the input and debate and is not given lightly or on demand by PRRuNers.

The Professional Pilots Rumour Network (PPRuNe) is a website dedicated to professional pilots and those who are considering a career as a pilot. The main focal point is the The Bulletin Board where there are nearly 70 forums. . . . .Air Traffic Controllers, Engineers, Cabin Crew, Operations, Crewing and Rostering staff are also welcome as well as anybody else with a connection or interest in professional aviation. . . . .PPRuNe was originally set up by Danny Fyne, an airline pilot with a background in computers, as a focal point for other pilots and Wannabes with access to the World Wide Web. . . . .Since late 1995 PPRuNe has grown from a small, manually updated message board into a multi forum, fully automated bulletin board with over 10 million page views a month. . . . .Internationally renowned as a source of news and rumours, PPRuNe is now one of the most widely read sites for pilots and airline management. . . . .Although most contributors to PPRuNe prefer to remain anonymous, many regular 'PPRuNers are senior pilots, managers and trainers with the major airlines of the world as well as with Air Traffic Services and ancillary professions. . . . .We aim to keep PPRuNe as simple to use and without too many graphics to keep download times as fast as possible.

We have recently been visited by no less than the President of your organisation. . .It is a pity that he found it necessary, as the President of AOPA, to make contemptuous and disparaging comment about the anonymous nature of the membership herein in almost every one of his posts, as he most likely, alienated a significant number and further marginalised your organisation within the ranks of Professional pilots.

He also declined an opportunity to present an important article on the subject from your magazine which may have gone some way to supporting his argument, or not. This is a pity and can only have been in ignorance of the fact, that there are many important and influential PPRuNers who do not have access to your magazine, is not on their reading list, or have the time to troll through and winnow the huge amount of reading out there necessary to come to a balanced view.

Notwithstanding, his right, to post here in your organisations name, remains intact.

We would hope that any visitors from here that you have invited to your forum, comport themselves in a proper manner, but please do not CONFUSE their real life experience, constructive and sometimes robust criticism or some real angst at wrong headed agenda based on real world experience as being negative.

As a moderator of this forum I do not have a position on AOPA or any organisation, but it is clear that many of the members here, as is their right, do not enjoy a rosy view of your organisation and its efforts to date.

I would have thought that it is AOPA's job to reach out to them for an understanding and to convince them to support your causes, rather than the other way round.

We all have much to contribute to each others worlds, understanding and knowledge, but smiling sweetly and exchanging pleasantries as we are led over the cliff by whichever enthusiastic Pied Piper happens to be fashionable today, is not a positive result.

I sincerely hope that we can help, it is up to you.. . [quote]We either sit on the fence and do nothing and say it is not my problem or we join in and tear it apart as what I have seen going on with the AOPA forum's, aus.aviation news group and <a href="http://www.pprune.org" target="_blank">www.pprune.org</a> "Dunnuda & Godzone" forum. <hr></blockquote>. .But you seem to have already closed your mind in re PPRuNe.

[awetzel]

Lead Balloon, I remember. We did not know who you where because you used different alias all the time. If you want to change things we have to put our names forward and not stand in the back ground.

I want to see things changed as much as you do so let's get involved. If we stand around with our arms folded, and sit on the fence nothing is going to happen. We all love flying, whether we are a glider, ultra light, GA (private, commercial or ATPL) or a balloon pilot or own a business in the industry.

AW <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

. .Snide Remark, I am not up on all the figures with how many AOC holder etc. I have asked someone to get me the figures so we can post them up here, but that is not going to prove a thing. All we are doing is fusing on minors and differences and that is not going to fix this industry.

No one is saying AOPA is the saviour to anything, it is not, and we are the only ones who can save our industry and community. Our industry is where it is, not because of AOPA's fault, but because we pilots and operators let it get that way. AOPA or whatever aviation representative, is the some total of what we have all put into it over the years. It is in a mess because of us, not taking an interest in the aviation industry.

We are the first to whinge and criticise the industry and the last to take up our responsibility for it, and do something to change it.

AW

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[awetzel]

Woomera,

Thanks for your positive feed back and support, it is very much appreciated.

It is really up to us as pilots and operators across the whole aviation arena to change the way things are going. We need to think out side the box and see where we are going or want to be in 5 years, 10 years and so on.

If AOPA or whatever aviation representative has the wrong committee members at its helm, that are not truly representing the wider aviation communities wishes, which is us (you and me),then we need to get involved and do something about it.

They are there because we put them there directly or indirectly through lack of interest on our part, while we where off, over in dream land of the sweet by and by.

Thanks once again for supporting our industry and wider aviation community.

AW . . <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Creampuff]

OK AW, I’ll play too. (At the outset let me emphasise that notwithstanding the sometimes acerbic tone of my writing, I applaud and admire your intentions and efforts.)

Let’s pluck one issue from ten thousand out of the contentious issues barrel, and see how we go getting a “concrete proposal”.

The barrel please. (Drums roll) And the winner is …..

Insurance!

My draft proposal: Passenger liability and ‘third party/property on ground’ liability insurance should be purely voluntary for all aircraft operators.

My reasoning:

Compulsory insurance constitutes an administrative and financial burden on the aviation industry.

Compulsory insurance indirectly disadvantages the safer operators over the less safe operators, because the premium is not linked directly to the risk posed by the particular operator.

Compulsory insurance is especially unjustifiable in the case of operations that pose no risks to persons or property other than that of the participants.

Boat operators are not required to have passenger or other third party insurance.

On balance, the benefits to society flowing from aviation vastly outweigh the costs society will bear in terms of a few passengers and people and property on the ground injured or killed by a few impecunious and uninsured aircraft operators.

Issues that I think need to be taken into consideration:

Australia has international obligations in relation to passenger liability (but not insurance).

Australian citizens were outraged at the value implicitly placed on the lives of the Monarch passengers by the then-existing passenger liability and insurance cap.

Legislation in all but 1 Australian jurisdiction places strict and unlimited liability on aircraft operators for all third party/property on ground damage. The last jurisdiction has unlimited liability, but negligence has to be proved. Legislation in all Australian jurisdictions imposes strict liability, up to a cap, on passenger-carrying charter and RPT operators; all other operators (commercial or private) bear unlimited liability for passenger death and injury.

Tune in next week for:. .Classification of operations;. .AOCs for flying training;. .Airspace management;. .Non-compulsory radio calls;. .See and avoid;. .Strict liability;. .Enforcement versus eduction;. .Administrative versus criminal process;. .Complexity of rules. .Flight and duty times. .ICUS. .and the other 9,989 contentious issues.

In my view, you will rarely get unanimity on the subject matter of any regulatory system. If everyone agrees that a particular rule should be made about a particular subject matter, there is no need for that rule.

The problem that you are so admirably trying to resolve is in my view borne, not of disunity, but of ignorance and immaturity. It is the product of an incapacity to accept that one cannot always have everything one wants, and that one occasionally fails to get what one wants, for entirely valid reasons that one cannot understand.

That said, this problem is exacerbated in 3rd world countries like Australia, where the letters-in-the-bottom-drawer, deals-over-lunch, friends-in-high-places, politically-tainted, snails-pace regulatory reform quagmire tends to make people more angry and suspicious than usual. (Cop them mixed/consecutive metaphoric apples!)

[JayJay]

Mr. Aussie Pilot.

There you go again putting your little club out to be something it aint.

The "minors" you say I am "fussing" about point to the very fact of your groups experience, knowledge, and dare I say relevance, to this forum.

Some years back one of your lot, when spruiking for money, challenged me with the "fact" that members owned some huge percentage of VH registered aircraft. This was stated as if it were some badge of legitimacy, a birthright to lead if you like. Grave problem with the numbers, even if true, were that the combined value of 90% of this asset was bu**#r all.

Woomera tells us that your club captain couldn't put up when the going got tough and I'm affraid you're barking up the wrong tree if you think too many want to come to a deal you are brokering.

Perhaps you offering to come to the RAA's table, or AFAP's or the AUF's might be a better start.

Have you ever wondered why so few love you? The relevance is just not there and I guess it is declining even further or you wouldn't be trying so hard.

I would have to agree that it's a lofty goal to set but your old ladder just aint tall enough. Secret sections, censorship, trick handshakes, it's all good "Boys Own" stuff but the world has moved on. Noticed how much strife the PM is in over selective release of "secrets"?

I wish you the very best of luck Aussie Pilot.

[Dogimed]

Good morning all,

Re: AOPA.

Firstly, I agree with AW that AOPA surely has to be good for something. Maybe not everything but AOPA exists because of a belief many years ago that the government in the future would not like aviation and try to eradicate it. I get amused by these people that say AOPA does not represent CPLs or ATPLs and they only represent GA or that they only look at AUF and dont do anything right. Quite frankly no bloody wonder they get it wrong all the time. <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> .

No matter what type of pilot you are, you went through GA to get there. I hate to break it to you pilots out there who dont want to assist because you are already there. You were not born a captain!, nor comming out of the womb with the required 2000 hours command.

The AOPA forums at AOPA are unfortunatly now, with former directors and current directors using it, a sandpit with too much urine in it. So, solution, elections are due shortly, vote, nominate, become and assist. If you do not like the way AOPA is running, .. run it. I know some directors are not as helpful as others, but the only way bad weeds stay around is to let them.

People who complain do nothing, people who defend do nothing but. Maybe its time to shut up and push AOPA into becomming an effective organisation.

. .Seriously, whats the alternative? <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

. .Hmmph, much better <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . .Dog.

[awetzel]

Mr Roberts, before we can even think of putting proposals together, we need to get organised as an organisation and get onside. We have to get the vehicle or channel of effective communication operating firstly within our ranks, until that happens no one is going to listen to us. Who wants to meet with a bunch of people who cannot organise themselves or have a chip on their shoulder and who just whine and whinge all the time?Think about it! If I had to deal with a bunch of people like that, I wouldn’t wast my time.

AW

Snide Remark, who is talking about clubs? It appears your happy with our industry and it’s future. If we want things to change it is left to you and me!

AW

Hi Dogimed, I am glad someone can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks

AW. . <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

. . [quote]It is up to you and I, to get involved and change our industry, before it is too late! It is going to take people with guts and sheer bloody determination to turn it around! Where is our Australianism these days?

Our forefathers paid with their own blood in WWI & WWII, but we want to role over and die when a little bit of pressure gets on us.. .<hr></blockquote>

[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: Aussie Pilot ]</p>

[JayJay]

Dogimed and Aussie Pilot,

What on earth would give you the idea that I am happy with the industry. If Mr. Aussie had bothered to check the majority of my previous posts you would see that I am generally a helpful soul. It's ill-informed statements like that get your nose bloodied.

What I am simply trying to establish is why AOPA? Why not the GAA, HAA, SAAA, GAPA and so on through the entire alphabet?

Perhaps we should all support the Flying Instructors Association on the basis that we've all met one.

Why on earth would one want to run something like AOPA? Surely "Because it's there" is not a good reason?

Why doesn't someone tell us what AOPA is and what it's core business is? Who do you purport to serve? How many staff do you employ? Flash as a rat mission statements that actually put fellow aviators to conflict is not the way toward harmony, strength or effectiveness IMHO.

The reason why there are so many little orgs is that the best for one sector is often not the best for another. You just can't run with a leg either side of a barbed wire fence. If you reckon you've managed to do that for the 50 or 60 years you've been around then it begs the question, given the state of things in general, it you've ever been any good.

A tiny and simple example might be this..... I own an aircraft and I offer it for rent. I want to buy a new one and so do the other owners on the field and so we get together in a corner and conspire to raise the price to you hirers. So I'm the aircraft owner and you're the pilot and we're in the same association. Who's "rights" are you going to champion here? Will you run off and tell the Minister or CASA they have all got it wrong?

So my humble and positive suggestion is to define what you are and who you seek to serve, if in fact that is your bag, and then come and tell us. Otherwise it seems a bit like the last gasp of a dying club to me.

[Dogimed]

Snide, . .in regards to your quote

"What I am simply trying to establish is why AOPA? Why not the GAA, HAA, SAAA, GAPA and so on through the entire alphabet?"

A good answer to that is who are GAA?, and GAPA?. .I know HAA , they deal with helicopters I can assume, and not me as a private pilot, and SAAA, sorry, just a ppl, no sports there either. . .I can assume the other 2 represent GA?!, if they do, how come I dont know about them?. .Alternatively, why not get someone from SAAA, AUF, HAA, GAA and GAPA on the board?

Now when CASA comes knocking on my door for one reason or another &lt;negative view but for conversation sake lets say they will&gt;, where can I turn to for assistance? Government? a Government who is in CASA's pocket, or an independent court, I believe what we do is far too technical for those simple minded folk,&lt;according to CASA&gt; so where else is there to go?

It is sad that my main argument is that AOPA are the only ones, but at least they are there. Where else can I go? I am more than happy to lose x amount of money a year to support a dying industry. Surely it can be turned around, but not until people want it to, so maybe the issue should be "Do we *want* to change GA in Australia? If this happens.. and its a big IF, some of you folk out there just might not have much else to talk about. Scary thought huh!.

. .Creampuff,

Your issue is a good one, what have you done about it?, wrote letters to CASA?, Government? or just whinged that no one is doing anything about it?

I guess what it comes down to is AOPA is what you make of it.

. .Dog.

[awetzel]

Mr Roberts/Lead Balloon/Cream Puff, I heard that you are a CASA lawyer too.

If that is true, lets all work together?!

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[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: Aussie Pilot ]</p>

[Lead Balloon]

AW. Sorry can't help much on that score.

I own/run a management & IT consultancy Company.

Although a knew a lawyer once... Ask Creampuff he sounds smart.